Exploiting Regular Season Defense: The Celtics and Hawks and Empty Success

[guava_wrench]

Doesn't San Antonio pretty much play a pace-and-space offense?

People who talk about "empty success" sound like people who've never competed for anything.

Mike

Yes, SA have the pace and space system.  That's part of how they've won so many regular season games over the last five years even when it seems like they should fall off due to injuries or stars aging.  Over that span, they've been exposed in the playoffs a few times.

SA has been at their best a team that is capable of any style, which gives them the ability to go to a different gear in the playoffs.  They have that extra gear because of their core stars.  In years when they've been limited by injuries, that extra gear isn't there and they fizzle out.


As for the judgmental comment ... Meh.

Different teams, different styles, etc., etc. all get exposed one way or another in the playoffs... even one with a 3-headed monster of LeBron-Bosh-Wade got exposed a few times in the playoffs. Does that mean we should avoid building a star triumvirate as well? How have the Clippers fared with their two-headed monster? How much success have the Thunder had in the playoffs? How many times have they been exposed?

I don't think there's anything conclusive in all of this, nothing worth extrapolating other than what we all had known regardless, we need to increase our talent level and need a better roster balance.

You win.

[guava_wrench]

The one component that is not mentioned is the real difference between the spurs and Celts/Hawks:   

The Spurs have post options in 3 positions (Diaw, Duncan, Leonard)... the Hawks and Celts rarely post up anybody...and in a half court offense you need that option.  Period.

Period? Really?

What the Spurs have is 2 HOF caliber players in Duncan and Parker. Elite talent.

[D.o.s.]

The one component that is not mentioned is the real difference between the spurs and Celts/Hawks:   

The Spurs have post options in 3 positions (Diaw, Duncan, Leonard)... the Hawks and Celts rarely post up anybody...and in a half court offense you need that option.  Period.

Period? Really?

What the Spurs have is 2 HOF caliber players in Duncan and Parker. Elite talent.

I would say that the Chicago Bulls are providing a good example of how having (and not having) a post up option makes a difference in their series against Cleveland.

Ginobili is also a HOF caliber player (as was David Robinson), but I know what you mean -- to win in the NBA, you need elite players.

[Rondo9]

The one component that is not mentioned is the real difference between the spurs and Celts/Hawks:   

The Spurs have post options in 3 positions (Diaw, Duncan, Leonard)... the Hawks and Celts rarely post up anybody...and in a half court offense you need that option.  Period.

Period? Really?

What the Spurs have is 2 HOF caliber players in Duncan and Parker. Elite talent.

I would say that the Chicago Bulls are providing a good example of how having (and not having) a post up option makes a difference in their series against Cleveland.

Ginobili is also a HOF caliber player (as was David Robinson), but I know what you mean -- to win in the NBA, you need elite players.

They did post Jimmy Butler a lot during the regular season. Then again he's playing against Lebron James.

[D.o.s.]

Yeah I was thinking specifically of Gasol and his absence when I wrote that, but you're right -- Butler can't post up against LeBron.

[PhoSita]

Yeah I was thinking specifically of Gasol and his absence when I wrote that, but you're right -- Butler can't post up against LeBron.

Butler is a SG, and can post up SG's, but playing him at SF against LeBron is basically conceding any real physical advantage.


Pau is very important for the Bulls.  Having him allows them to really punish the Cavs anytime they go small.  Without him, and with Noah so limited, they basically can't stop the Cavs from just going smaller and creating plenty of space for LeBron to attack endlessly.

[celticsclay]

I am a little confused as to how the Hawks have been so disappointing so far in the playoffs. They have had their best two players beat up for most of the playoffs (millsap and horford) and played against a team in the first round that had a bit more talent than their record indicated. They have a real legit shot of making the conference finals, and I don't think they will get steamrolled when they get there. Why so quick to write them off?

[D.o.s.]

I am a little confused as to how the Hawks have been so disappointing so far in the playoffs. They have had their best two players beat up for most of the playoffs (millsap and horford) and played against a team in the first round that had a bit more talent than their record indicated. They have a real legit shot of making the conference finals, and I don't think they will get steamrolled when they get there. Why so quick to write them off?

Probably because they're not contributing very heavily to the highlight reels.

[littleteapot]

I am a little confused as to how the Hawks have been so disappointing so far in the playoffs. They have had their best two players beat up for most of the playoffs (millsap and horford) and played against a team in the first round that had a bit more talent than their record indicated. They have a real legit shot of making the conference finals, and I don't think they will get steamrolled when they get there. Why so quick to write them off?

IMO the Wizards shouldn't be able to keep it this close without John Wall. Having your bigs banged up is pretty normal in the playoffs, but John Wall is the reason the Wizards got here and if you replace him with Ramon Sessions, you should have no hope.

It's not the Hawks fault that the perception of them became that they were the Spurs East, but that's what the perception is and if they really were that team and went up against a team that was giving big minutes to such players as Drew Gooden, Otto Porter and Sessions, people are going to be critical.

[celticsclay]

I am a little confused as to how the Hawks have been so disappointing so far in the playoffs. They have had their best two players beat up for most of the playoffs (millsap and horford) and played against a team in the first round that had a bit more talent than their record indicated. They have a real legit shot of making the conference finals, and I don't think they will get steamrolled when they get there. Why so quick to write them off?

IMO the Wizards shouldn't be able to keep it this close without John Wall. Having your bigs banged up is pretty normal in the playoffs, but John Wall is the reason the Wizards got here and if you replace him with Ramon Sessions, you should have no hope.

It's not the Hawks fault that the perception of them became that they were the Spurs East, but that's what the perception is and if they really were that team and went up against a team that was giving big minutes to such players as Drew Gooden, Otto Porter and Sessions, people are going to be critical.

Otto Porter  has looked really good these playoffs. Hitting threes and playing solid defense. I know it is easy to mock Gooden, but he has somehow really improved his shooting to the point that he has drilled some 3's. Plus Pierce has come up huge. There is absolutely no shame in having close games with the Wizards, as they probably underperformed for most of the season. Why isn't everyone on Golden State being knotted 2-2 despite conley missing a game? Memphis looked awful the second half of the season.

[littleteapot]

Otto Porter  has looked really good these playoffs. Hitting threes and playing solid defense. I know it is easy to mock Gooden, but he has somehow really improved his shooting to the point that he has drilled some 3's. Plus Pierce has come up huge. There is absolutely no shame in having close games with the Wizards, as they probably underperformed for most of the season. Why isn't everyone on Golden State being knotted 2-2 despite conley missing a game? Memphis looked awful the second half of the season.

Memphis was a predictable bad matchup for Golden State. Also in the one game where Memphis was missing their 2nd best player, Golden State beat them decisively.

[celticsclay]

Otto Porter  has looked really good these playoffs. Hitting threes and playing solid defense. I know it is easy to mock Gooden, but he has somehow really improved his shooting to the point that he has drilled some 3's. Plus Pierce has come up huge. There is absolutely no shame in having close games with the Wizards, as they probably underperformed for most of the season. Why isn't everyone on Golden State being knotted 2-2 despite conley missing a game? Memphis looked awful the second half of the season.

Memphis was a predictable bad matchup for Golden State. Also in the one game where Memphis was missing their 2nd best player, Golden State beat them decisively.

My opinion is that that bad matchup narrative is a bit overplayed. The warriors do not get enough credit for their defense and they have an elite defensive center in Bogut to match up with Gasol, and Draymond can definitely play well against Randolph. On the flip side of it, Golden State has a really explosive offense and Memphis does not have fire power to score a lot of points or make any come backs. I don't get how Memphis is a worse matchup for the Warriors than the Clippers, Rockets or San Antonio.

[D.o.s.]

Because the Grizzlies play better and/or more disciplined defense than those teams. No one likes to see a Curry pick and Roll combined with an off-ball screen for Thompson, but Memphis doesn't lapse nearly as often against it.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Was the Spurs system empty success last year? They were one of the fastest in the league and highest passing teams in the league last year.

The difference is that the Spurs also complimented that with Duncan Isos, especially come playoff time. We simply don't run ISO that much, but you need players who can ISO in order to do that. As in everything, it's all about balance.

Pace and Space does a few things: 1) Creates a possibility of explosive offensive nights 2) Gives the best players a rest from carrying the load offensively, and 3) Allows lesser players to still be effective, especially if they can play with a star.

I think ISOing Smart in the wing post is a wrinkle that CBS will add next year. Sullinger might improve as an ISO player too with some conditioning.

One player that is top 5 in PPP in ISO situations is Harrison Barnes, who might be a trade chip for the Warriors to get rid of David Lee's contract so they can sign Green.

Obviously, the biggest goal is Aldridge or Love as our ISO guy.

[D.o.s.]

I would not think that Kevin Love, LaMarcus Aldridge, or Marcus Smart would make good candidates for purposeful isolation plays (which I see as different from postup opportunities).