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Free Throws
« on: February 21, 2015, 11:34:46 AM »

Offline gpap

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Not sure if anyone else has been noticing, but free throws are becoming a HUGE problem for this team.

Smart, Young, Crowder, Bradley,etc

If Stevens was doing his job, he should lock his whole team in the gym and have them practice 1000 free throws each day til they get it right.
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Re: Free Throws
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2015, 11:56:47 AM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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Quote from: gpap on February 21, 2015, 11:34:46 AM
Not sure if anyone else has been noticing, but free throws are becoming a HUGE problem for this team.

Smart, Young, Crowder, Bradley,etc

If Stevens was doing his job, he should lock his whole team in the gym and have them practice 1000 free throws each day til they get it right.
the celtics as a team are currently 18th out of 30 nba teams in ft%. i dont know if this would be considered a "HUGE problem" but given that ft can be improved through practice, i would have hoped this team would be better than 18th.
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Re: Free Throws
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2015, 12:02:20 PM »

Offline gpap

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Quote from: hwangjini_1 on February 21, 2015, 11:56:47 AM
Quote from: gpap on February 21, 2015, 11:34:46 AM
Not sure if anyone else has been noticing, but free throws are becoming a HUGE problem for this team.

Smart, Young, Crowder, Bradley,etc

If Stevens was doing his job, he should lock his whole team in the gym and have them practice 1000 free throws each day til they get it right.
the celtics as a team are currently 18th out of 30 nba teams in ft%. i dont know if this would be considered a "HUGE problem" but given that ft can be improved through practice, i would have hoped this team would be better than 18th.

Exactly. In my opinion, there's no excuse for missing a free shot. Not to mention, missing free throws always comes back to haunt you, especially in those games where you loss a game by say, 3,4 or 5 points.

I don't think it was the reason we lost last night because Cousins and Gay just terrorized us with their offense.

But still, something this team needs to work on
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Re: Free Throws
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2015, 12:13:03 PM »

Offline Chief

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Free throws are often left for the end of practice or individual work to do on one's own. This young team does not seem to have the discipline to do it on their own. Stevens needs to make the time. This team has lost too many close games because of  their inability to get free points.
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Re: Free Throws
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2015, 12:15:05 PM »

Offline PAOBoston

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I thought they were doing pretty well earlier on in the season. Lately though, it's been very inconsistent.
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Re: Free Throws
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2015, 12:35:58 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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1000 is a lot I would say 300 is good.
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Re: Free Throws
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2015, 12:44:10 PM »

Offline the_Bird

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Probably the least of the Celtic's problems.  Looking at the guys that you'd expect to take a couple free throws per game:

Bradley's pretty decent (81%)
Sully's decent for a big (75%)
Turner's fine (77%)
Bass is good for a big (79%)
Crowder could be a little better (71%), but that's not terrible
Zeller is very good for a center (83%)

The guys you'd like to see some improvement from are KO (only 69%) and Smart (64%).  But, now you've added Isaiah Thomas to the mix, and he's got a career mark of 86%. 

And if they improved from 75% to... 78% (placing them in the top 5), given that they take 20 free throws a game that's only an improvement of 0.6 pts/game.  It's not NOTHING, but it's also not like they're Philly and shooting 68% as a team.

The BIGGER issue, by far - they don't get to the line enough!  They're getting 20 free throw attempts per game, which makes them tied for third-worst.  If they were getting to the line more like 24 times/game (about league-average), that's going to have a much more pronounced effect.  More free shots, but that would also mean that they're driving to the rim more and getting closer looks in general.   
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Re: Free Throws
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2015, 12:47:15 PM »

Offline the_Bird

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And also - it's not as simple as "practice more free throws!"

Doing it in an empty gym isn't the same thing as doing it in a game, when you're tired, your adrenaline is flowing and everyone's attention is on you.

I have no doubt that Rajon Rondo has practiced the hell out of his free throws, because there can't be much that's more embarrassing that going to the line and tossing up two bricks.  But, that's not always enough! 
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Re: Free Throws
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2015, 12:55:07 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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Quote from: the_Bird on February 21, 2015, 12:44:10 PM
Probably the least of the Celtic's problems.  Looking at the guys that you'd expect to take a couple free throws per game:

Bradley's pretty decent (81%)
Sully's decent for a big (75%)
Turner's fine (77%)
Bass is good for a big (79%)
Crowder could be a little better (71%), but that's not terrible
Zeller is very good for a center (83%)

The guys you'd like to see some improvement from are KO (only 69%) and Smart (64%).  But, now you've added Isaiah Thomas to the mix, and he's got a career mark of 86%. 

And if they improved from 75% to... 78% (placing them in the top 5), given that they take 20 free throws a game that's only an improvement of 0.6 pts/game.  It's not NOTHING, but it's also not like they're Philly and shooting 68% as a team.

The BIGGER issue, by far - they don't get to the line enough!  They're getting 20 free throw attempts per game, which makes them tied for third-worst.  If they were getting to the line more like 24 times/game (about league-average), that's going to have a much more pronounced effect.  More free shots, but that would also mean that they're driving to the rim more and getting closer looks in general.   
thanks for the breakdown. really informative. you point on improving by 3% also puts things in perspective.

i think this is a very young team and will improve ft% in the next few years. so i am not too worried.
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Re: Free Throws
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2015, 01:03:50 PM »

Offline the_Bird

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Keep in mind, too, that in the past couple months we've effectively replaced Rondo with IT.  Rondo's free throw shooting wasn't quite as bad here as it has been in Dallas, but he was still only getting to the line 1.5 times per game and hitting them at a 33% clip.  His minutes have now been replaced by IT, who usually gets to the line almost five times a game and who's hitting 86% of his shots. 

For the remainder of the season, I'd expect the C's FT shooting percentage to be right about league-average or maybe even a tick above.  The only rotation guys that you'd really say are below-average for their positions are Crowder and Oly.  And, they should be getting at least two or three more attempts per game. 

Oly should be hitting a higher percentage, given how good of a shooter he is generally.  I'd be surprised if he's not hitting 75%+ next year, just as he continues to develop and get up to speed with the NBA game.

EDIT: Just noticing that Oly hit his free throws at an 81% clip last season; I'd expect him to be shooting at around that level, not sub-70%. 
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Re: Free Throws
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2015, 03:31:11 PM »

Offline Chief

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Quote from: the_Bird on February 21, 2015, 12:44:10 PM
Probably the least of the Celtic's problems.  Looking at the guys that you'd expect to take a couple free throws per game:

Bradley's pretty decent (81%)
Sully's decent for a big (75%)
Turner's fine (77%)
Bass is good for a big (79%)
Crowder could be a little better (71%), but that's not terrible
Zeller is very good for a center (83%)

The guys you'd like to see some improvement from are KO (only 69%) and Smart (64%).  But, now you've added Isaiah Thomas to the mix, and he's got a career mark of 86%. 

And if they improved from 75% to... 78% (placing them in the top 5), given that they take 20 free throws a game that's only an improvement of 0.6 pts/game.  It's not NOTHING, but it's also not like they're Philly and shooting 68% as a team.

The BIGGER issue, by far - they don't get to the line enough!  They're getting 20 free throw attempts per game, which makes them tied for third-worst.  If they were getting to the line more like 24 times/game (about league-average), that's going to have a much more pronounced effect.  More free shots, but that would also mean that they're driving to the rim more and getting closer looks in general.   

Can anyone get their 4th quarter ft efficiency? I bet Turner is less than 60%
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Re: Free Throws
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2015, 03:45:56 PM »

Offline BornReady

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Most of our players our average or slightly above average ft shooters
Only Ko and smart need to improve their poor ft shooting
more reps and exp at shooting ft will develop them
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Re: Free Throws
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2015, 03:56:50 PM »

Offline saltlover

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Quote from: Chief on February 21, 2015, 03:31:11 PM
Quote from: the_Bird on February 21, 2015, 12:44:10 PM
Probably the least of the Celtic's problems.  Looking at the guys that you'd expect to take a couple free throws per game:

Bradley's pretty decent (81%)
Sully's decent for a big (75%)
Turner's fine (77%)
Bass is good for a big (79%)
Crowder could be a little better (71%), but that's not terrible
Zeller is very good for a center (83%)

The guys you'd like to see some improvement from are KO (only 69%) and Smart (64%).  But, now you've added Isaiah Thomas to the mix, and he's got a career mark of 86%. 

And if they improved from 75% to... 78% (placing them in the top 5), given that they take 20 free throws a game that's only an improvement of 0.6 pts/game.  It's not NOTHING, but it's also not like they're Philly and shooting 68% as a team.

The BIGGER issue, by far - they don't get to the line enough!  They're getting 20 free throw attempts per game, which makes them tied for third-worst.  If they were getting to the line more like 24 times/game (about league-average), that's going to have a much more pronounced effect.  More free shots, but that would also mean that they're driving to the rim more and getting closer looks in general.   

Can anyone get their 4th quarter ft efficiency? I bet Turner is less than 60%

Can't find that, but I can tell you he had a bad January at the line, which could be affecting your memory somewhat (based on its recentness).

Turner's free throws by month:

November: 21-21 -- 100%
December: 13-16 -- 81%
January: 25-40 -- 63%
February: 10-12 -- 83%

He had a bad month at free throws, but by and large he's been very good at them.  I suppose it's possible more of his free throws in January were in the 4th than other months, but I haven't found that.

The bigger concern about Turner is his shooting has started to crater, as he's hitting only 26% of his shots on the month.
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Re: Free Throws
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2015, 04:01:52 PM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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Quote from: the_Bird on February 21, 2015, 12:44:10 PM
Probably the least of the Celtic's problems.  Looking at the guys that you'd expect to take a couple free throws per game:

Bradley's pretty decent (81%)
Sully's decent for a big (75%)
Turner's fine (77%)
Bass is good for a big (79%)
Crowder could be a little better (71%), but that's not terrible
Zeller is very good for a center (83%)

The guys you'd like to see some improvement from are KO (only 69%) and Smart (64%).  But, now you've added Isaiah Thomas to the mix, and he's got a career mark of 86%. 

And if they improved from 75% to... 78% (placing them in the top 5), given that they take 20 free throws a game that's only an improvement of 0.6 pts/game.  It's not NOTHING, but it's also not like they're Philly and shooting 68% as a team.

The BIGGER issue, by far - they don't get to the line enough!  They're getting 20 free throw attempts per game, which makes them tied for third-worst.  If they were getting to the line more like 24 times/game (about league-average), that's going to have a much more pronounced effect.  More free shots, but that would also mean that they're driving to the rim more and getting closer looks in general.   

Great points on the percentage. I think Thomas will help us get offense into the lane a bit more, which should improve shooting percentages across the board.

I disagree about not getting to the line being a problem. I don't think that is a problem, because they are not trying to set up offenses like the Kings (who get the line the most), or the Clippers (who basically bruise you into submission with their athleticism). Their offense is more like the Blazers, who they are tied with. Last year, the Spurs had the most efficient offense in the league, but they had the fewest FTAPG per game. The Warriors, Suns, Bucks, Mavs, and Hawks all have great offenses, but they are in the bottom half of the league in FTAPG. In fact, 8 of the 15 most efficient offenses (according to Hollinger's ratings) are in the bottom half of the league in FTAPG.

10 years ago, I think FTAPG were a good way to evaluate offensive efficiency, but with the new Euroball systems, you do not need to get to the line as much. In other words, there is more than one way to skin a cat, and there is more than one way to have an efficient offense. I believe in Brad Stevens coaching ability, and I think he is implementing a great system for these players. That system will include some bruising inside with Sully (and hopefully one day Smart), but it will probably be much more like the Hawks or the Blazers system once all of the pieces get settled.

And by the way, it makes for a much more entertaining brand of basketball.
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Re: Free Throws
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2015, 05:59:25 PM »

Offline the_Bird

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I look at the lack of free throw attempts as mostly being a product of not really having many penetrators on the squad.  I like having guards who can get to the rim, which seems to be a little more of IT's game.  There may be a little chicken-or-egg going on in terms of how the offense has been run - if the system is hard-and-fast, or if it's a byproduct of the current players' skillsets.

And if you can pick up an extra foul or two on their big men, it's just like having David Ortiz and Mike Napoli grinding out at-bats; it ends up being more minutes played for the backups. 
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