Author Topic: #DeflateGate (Court of Appeals Reinstates Suspension)  (Read 609893 times)

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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2580 on: August 22, 2015, 04:04:37 PM »

Offline JSD

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In May of 2014, if it was McNally's job was to deflate footballs after in-game approval, then why did Brady and the Patriots give NFL refs a copy of PSI rule in October 2014?



http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25259755/tom-brady-says-pats-gave-refs-a-copy-of-psi-rule-in-october

Bringing the ref's attention to the rules doesn't exactly seem like a smart thing when you are about to break those rules. 

And why would Jastremski expect the balls to be about 13 in October if they were running a scheme going back to May to deflate the balls to under 12.5?  It doesn't add up.

About to break them? The Deflator had already been established, McNally described himself as "the deflator" 6 months before that October game. Darn right it doesn't add up.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2015, 04:17:30 PM by JSD »

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2581 on: August 22, 2015, 04:09:04 PM »

Offline JSD

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What if McNally's job was to deflate the balls to fit Tom's preferences --- within the range prescribed by the rules?

We have heard that the balls are often over-inflated, and that Tom's stated preference is for them to be on the lower end of the range.

So, couldn't McNally refer to himself, jokingly or otherwise, as "the deflator" in that context?  Especially if Tom frequently makes a big deal out of the balls being prepared to his specifications, including making sure they are not overinflated?

That's a plausible explanation that doesn't involve rule-breaking.

Absolutely.

I don't agree with this.  McNally is in the ref's locker room when they test the balls.  If he sees the balls being overinflated, he can point out the rules at that time.

Part of the prep can cause the PSI levels to raise. So McNally could be the deflator of the balls before they are presented to the refs. Depends on when the prep is done.

Anyway, I don't read too much into text lingo. WE DO KNOW, BASED ON THE TIMELINE, WHAT THE DEFLATOR DOESN'T MEAN, HOWEVER.


Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2582 on: August 22, 2015, 04:22:25 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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What if McNally's job was to deflate the balls to fit Tom's preferences --- within the range prescribed by the rules?

We have heard that the balls are often over-inflated, and that Tom's stated preference is for them to be on the lower end of the range.

So, couldn't McNally refer to himself, jokingly or otherwise, as "the deflator" in that context?  Especially if Tom frequently makes a big deal out of the balls being prepared to his specifications, including making sure they are not overinflated?

That's a plausible explanation that doesn't involve rule-breaking.

Absolutely.

I don't agree with this.  McNally is in the ref's locker room when they test the balls.  If he sees the balls being overinflated, he can point out the rules at that time.

Perhaps.  It's also plausible that the refs don't take instruction from the teams' ball attendants while prepping the balls.

Again, the point is that there are plausible explanations based on the evidence that don't involve intentional rule breaking.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2583 on: August 23, 2015, 07:15:33 PM »

Offline JSD

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Roy H. Do you agree that it wouldn't make much sense for Brady and the Patriots to present the game officials with the PSI rule in October in 2014, if they were already deflating the balls after approval before May of 2014?

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2584 on: August 23, 2015, 09:00:55 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Roy H. Do you agree that it wouldn't make much sense for Brady and the Patriots to present the game officials with the PSI rule in October in 2014, if they were already deflating the balls after approval before May of 2014?

No idea. Maybe it happened at a game where the Pats couldn't deflate balls for whatever reason, so they were playing it straight. That's more plausible than the season tickets explanation.


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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2585 on: August 23, 2015, 09:34:54 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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Some perfectly legal deflation of the balls is apparently part of the process of preparing the balls based on the fact that in one Jets game, it was discovered that the balls that were given to Brady to play with were at 16 Psig.  We don't know exactly what the temperature was when the balls measured 16 psig but this is far enough above the maximum range of 13.5 psig that unless the balls were 150F or something like that, the balls were either delivered over-pressurized or over pumped somewhere along the way.

Deflating balls before the refs check the balls is fine, it is only deflating balls after the refs check the balls that would be a violation of the integrity of the game (sarcasm).  In the particular case for which Brady was suspended, there is no evidence that the balls were deflated after inspection by the refs.  In fact the half time measurements (ignoring all other evidence) make it more probable than not that the balls were not deflated in any way.

All of the other evidence is just noise.  If they had found that the Patriots balls were consistently and unambiguously deflated by say 2 psig (hmmm, where have I heard that), then I would look at all of the other evidence (text quotes and visit to bathroom) differently.  But there is no body here and in fact the person suspected of being murdered turned up in good health.  Yet someone is on trial because a colleague of the suspect sent a text to another colleague where he claimed in a very general sense, to be a "killer" and there are 90 seconds where he can't account for his whereabouts.  Ergo, they must have done something; there must be a conspiracy.

The Mortensen leak in particular framed public opinion and from then on, people have been a victim of confirmation bias.  It is very hard to change your mind on something like this.  It is just how people are wired.  Had the first reports been, "the balls have been measured and appear to be in the expect range when temperature is taken into consideration but we have some suspicious texts and a suspicious visit to the bathroom so we are investigating", wouldn't that have dramatically changed the narrative from that point forward?

I am an engineer and I work with the ideal gas law (and other gas laws) so I understand gas laws much better than I understand jurisprudence law.  When I heard the story that the balls were tested and (whatever it was) 13 of 16 were 2 psig under, my first thought was how were the balls tested but I am sure that I am in the vast minority on that.  It did not sound good for the Pats based on those early reports, that is for sure and if you formed an opinion based on that information (which I think it is fair to say that the vast majority did), it is going to be much harder for you to change your opinion.

This is especially true for the NFL Execs.  They not only formed their opinions but in some cases went public, in other cases made private statements (we gotcha) and in all cases put in motion an expensive and elaborate investigation and penalty process that was supposed to provide confirmation that all these execs were right all along.  It is no longer about anything else other than proving the NFL execs were right all along.

« Last Edit: August 23, 2015, 09:57:42 PM by Vermont Green »

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2586 on: August 24, 2015, 12:33:39 AM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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ESPN just posted what I think is a really great interview with Cleveland's Joe Thomas. Sums up quite well how I feel about this whole circus. Some excerpts:

Quote
BEREA, Ohio -- Joe Thomas does not think the punishment fits the crime in the Deflategate saga.

"I would equate what [Tom Brady] did to driving 66 [mph] in a 65 speed zone, and getting the death penalty," Thomas said Sunday after the Cleveland Browns' training camp practice.

Quote
"If you want [quarterbacks] to play with a brand new football that comes out of the box, then make that the rule," Thomas said. "If you're going to allow them to break it in because you want more passing yards, then let them do whatever they want.

"Who cares if they throw a football that has no air pressure? What does it matter? Why don't we let the quarterbacks do whatever they want to the football? I don't understand why there's any rules."

Thomas called the minimum pressures for footballs "arbitrary."

Quote
Thomas said Brady is not a cheater.

"I think he's trying to do everything he can to gain a competitive advantage to help him do his job better, which is to throw the football," Thomas said. "Why should we be punishing a guy that wants to do his job better?"
"There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.'"

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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2587 on: August 24, 2015, 11:16:29 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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What if McNally's job was to deflate the balls to fit Tom's preferences --- within the range prescribed by the rules?

We have heard that the balls are often over-inflated, and that Tom's stated preference is for them to be on the lower end of the range.

So, couldn't McNally refer to himself, jokingly or otherwise, as "the deflator" in that context?  Especially if Tom frequently makes a big deal out of the balls being prepared to his specifications, including making sure they are not overinflated?

That's a plausible explanation that doesn't involve rule-breaking.
By the way this is still a violation if it happens after the balls are approved by the referee.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2588 on: August 24, 2015, 11:20:31 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Roy H. Do you agree that it wouldn't make much sense for Brady and the Patriots to present the game officials with the PSI rule in October in 2014, if they were already deflating the balls after approval before May of 2014?

No idea. Maybe it happened at a game where the Pats couldn't deflate balls for whatever reason, so they were playing it straight. That's more plausible than the season tickets explanation.
So far, I have convinced myself of a handful of things:

1. There is certainly something here the Patriots don't want to admit to. It may or may not be deflating game balls after inspection.

2. The deflator explanation is so dumb (and the alternative argument  fits the narrative so poorly) that it just must be true.

3. The season tickets story doesn't make much sense.


None of these indicate any particular involvement of Brady in anything. Heck, even the fact that he signed balls for McNally didn't mean that he was aware that anything was done in violation of the rules.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2589 on: August 24, 2015, 11:50:51 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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What if McNally's job was to deflate the balls to fit Tom's preferences --- within the range prescribed by the rules?

We have heard that the balls are often over-inflated, and that Tom's stated preference is for them to be on the lower end of the range.

So, couldn't McNally refer to himself, jokingly or otherwise, as "the deflator" in that context?  Especially if Tom frequently makes a big deal out of the balls being prepared to his specifications, including making sure they are not overinflated?

That's a plausible explanation that doesn't involve rule-breaking.
By the way this is still a violation if it happens after the balls are approved by the referee.

I had a feeling this was the case.  Technically, you're not allowed to do anything to the balls after the refs have approved them.

Nevertheless, it's a much different matter if your ball guy is adjusting the balls to be on the lower end of the legal range (because the refs have inflated them like beach balls), as opposed to deflating them well below it.

If that was the violation -- and I think it's a strong possibility -- then a fine is really all that should have happened, especially in light of precedent (e.g. Vikings punishment).
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 12:38:22 PM by PhoSita »
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2590 on: August 24, 2015, 11:53:59 AM »

Online knuckleballer

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Roy H. Do you agree that it wouldn't make much sense for Brady and the Patriots to present the game officials with the PSI rule in October in 2014, if they were already deflating the balls after approval before May of 2014?

No idea. Maybe it happened at a game where the Pats couldn't deflate balls for whatever reason, so they were playing it straight. That's more plausible than the season tickets explanation.
So far, I have convinced myself of a handful of things:

1. There is certainly something here the Patriots don't want to admit to. It may or may not be deflating game balls after inspection.

2. The deflator explanation is so dumb (and the alternative argument  fits the narrative so poorly) that it just must be true.

3. The season tickets story doesn't make much sense.


None of these indicate any particular involvement of Brady in anything. Heck, even the fact that he signed balls for McNally didn't mean that he was aware that anything was done in violation of the rules.

That season tickets story came after the Jets game where the balls were overinflated and the one where Jastremski said the balls should have been 13.  There is some contradiction there. 
Also, regarding that story, Wells and Jastremski would have had to foresee Wells asking them about that four month old single text, gotten together and concocted the story which involved a mutual friend who is not a team employee, and this friend would have been ok being brought into this national attention receiving investigation and been willing to lie.   He even volunteered to be interviewed by a high powered attorney running the investigation.  That's one heck of a friend.  Is that really more probably than the story just simply being true?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 11:59:07 AM by knuckleballer »

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2591 on: August 24, 2015, 11:55:26 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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We also learned that you can be a courtroom sketch artist and be drunk on the job. Don't forget that.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2592 on: August 24, 2015, 12:00:39 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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We also learned that you can be a courtroom sketch artist and be drunk on the job. Don't forget that.
I didn't realize that was an actual job. But yes, that one was good for a couple of good laughs that day.
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2593 on: August 24, 2015, 12:05:09 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Roy H. Do you agree that it wouldn't make much sense for Brady and the Patriots to present the game officials with the PSI rule in October in 2014, if they were already deflating the balls after approval before May of 2014?

No idea. Maybe it happened at a game where the Pats couldn't deflate balls for whatever reason, so they were playing it straight. That's more plausible than the season tickets explanation.
So far, I have convinced myself of a handful of things:

1. There is certainly something here the Patriots don't want to admit to. It may or may not be deflating game balls after inspection.

2. The deflator explanation is so dumb (and the alternative argument  fits the narrative so poorly) that it just must be true.

3. The season tickets story doesn't make much sense.


None of these indicate any particular involvement of Brady in anything. Heck, even the fact that he signed balls for McNally didn't mean that he was aware that anything was done in violation of the rules.

That season tickets story came after the Jets game where the balls were overinflated and the one where Jastremski said the balls should have been 13.  There is some contradiction there. 
Also, regarding that story, Wells and Jastremski would have had to foresee Wells asking them about that four month old single text, gotten together and concocted the story which involved a mutual friend who is not a team employee, and this friend would have been ok being brought into this national attention receiving investigation and been willing to lie.   He even volunteered to be interviewed by a high powered attorney running the investigation.  That's one heck of a friend.  Is that really more probably than the story just simply being true?

As koz says, the "season tickets" explanation doesn't necessarily implicate Brady in an illegal scheme, but come on. 

Quote
McNally: Tom sucks…im going make that next ball a [expletive] balloon

Jastremski: Talked to him last night. He actually brought you up and said you must have a lot of stress trying to get them done…

You think this text message exchange is:

1.  Not about Tom Brady; and
2.  Is about season tickets?

Again, it's not necessarily a smoking gun, but you have to wonder why the Patriots are giving such a strained (i.e., fictional) interpretation.


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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2594 on: August 24, 2015, 12:10:07 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Quote
McNally: Tom sucks…im going make that next ball a [expletive] balloon

Jastremski: Talked to him last night. He actually brought you up and said you must have a lot of stress trying to get them done…

You think this text message exchange is:

1.  Not about Tom Brady; and
2.  Is about season tickets?

Again, it's not necessarily a smoking gun, but you have to wonder why the Patriots are giving such a strained (i.e., fictional) interpretation.
I have no doubt there's something that the Patriots are unwilling to disclose. But that's not what's all this is about.

You have a text in which Person A communicates to Person B something that Person C allegedly said. In the practical absence of corroborating evidence that Tom Brady _actually_ said this (or any corroborating evidence of what he actually said), I find it hard to justify how he's being hit with an unprecedented punishment when the league has barely proven the scheme he's allegedly ringleading even existed (at least Berman seems to think so...)
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