Rondo's ability to win games diminishes significantly without the help of stars

[TheFlex]

So does CP3, Westbrook, Wall and Co.

All great PGs need stars, and Rondo's no different.

Except that CP3 and Westbrook have had Blake, DeAndre, Tyson, David West, Durant, and Serge - all in their primes.

Rondo's had KG, Ray and Paul - all past their primes. Rondo's had a broke down KG, and a supposedly defensively-challenged Ray....and won WITH them - not BECAUSE of them.

And so far, I don't think we'll see CP3 or Westbrook's teams come out the West - at least this year.

And their windows, while still open - are getting smaller every year.

Why do we continue to isolate Rondo on this Blog and let the other supposed Star PGs get a free pass?

CP3 led multiple teams to the playoffs by himself. Not even going to look at his WS/48 numbers, which I'm sure are fantastic whether he has good teammates or not, if you're going to assert that West/Chandler = Ray/Pierce/KG.

Westbrook has never had a bad team so the parallel is faulty.

Wall has sported a steadily increasing WS/48. In 2012-13 (granted, an injury-derailed season), Wall posted a .134 WS/48. In 2013-14 at 23 years old Wall led the Wizards to the playoffs and posted a WS/48 of .128. So far this season his WS/48 is .147. There is no conclusion to be drawn that Wall needs good teammates to contribute wins to a ball club.

There is a conclusion, albeit a weak one given the sample size, to be drawn that Rondo does.

[indeedproceed]

Yah the thread title should read, "Celtics ability to win games diminishes significantly without the help of stars"

So Rondo's consistency in contributing to victory is not more  volatile than that of other max/near-max stars?

Ummm...Hmm. Yes and no. I do think the Celtics' win-loss situation here is a blend of mediocre overall talent and of the talent we do have, we have serious deficiencies in roster fit, and overall consistency issues due to youth and the overall tenor of the squad.

But Rondo, yeah man. I don't think he is a max/near max star right now. Not in the current incarnation.

[LilRip]

What Rondo needs is a scorer/closer. I'm not putting the losses on him since the team is wildly inconsistent and there's only so much he can do, but this team is full of role players who specialize on doing the "little things". Rondo is already the all-star of the little things.

As much flak as Melo gets on this board, I think he'd be a perfect player to pair with Rondo. He's not ball-dominant ala Lebron and he loves to shoot. Plus, he's a terrific closer.

[GreenFaith1819]

So does CP3, Westbrook, Wall and Co.

All great PGs need stars, and Rondo's no different.

Except that CP3 and Westbrook have had Blake, DeAndre, Tyson, David West, Durant, and Serge - all in their primes.

Rondo's had KG, Ray and Paul - all past their primes. Rondo's had a broke down KG, and a supposedly defensively-challenged Ray....and won WITH them - not BECAUSE of them.

And so far, I don't think we'll see CP3 or Westbrook's teams come out the West - at least this year.

And their windows, while still open - are getting smaller every year.

Why do we continue to isolate Rondo on this Blog and let the other supposed Star PGs get a free pass?

CP3 led multiple teams to the playoffs by himself. Not even going to look at his WS/48 numbers, which I'm sure are fantastic whether he has good teammates or not, if you're going to assert that West/Chandler = Ray/Pierce/KG.

Westbrook has never had a bad team so the parallel is faulty.

Wall has sported a steadily increasing WS/48. In 2012-13 (granted, an injury-derailed season), Wall posted a .134 WS/48. In 2013-14 at 23 years old Wall led the Wizards to the playoffs and posted a WS/48 of .128. So far this season his WS/48 is .147. There is no conclusion to be drawn that Wall needs good teammates to contribute wins to a ball club.

There is a conclusion, albeit a weak one given the sample size, to be drawn that Rondo does.

Whom did CP3 lead to the playoffs by himself? Which team?

And he never had a bad team either - like Westbrook. Nor does he (CP3) have one now.

Stat-crunching aside, I'm just curious as to what excuse we'll come up with in June when it's either DAL-Spurs or maybe even MEM in the Finals - and not Clips or OKC.

[TheFlex]

Yah the thread title should read, "Celtics ability to win games diminishes significantly without the help of stars"

So Rondo's consistency in contributing to victory is not more  volatile than that of other max/near-max stars?

Ummm...Hmm. Yes and no. I do think the Celtics' win-loss situation here is a blend of mediocre overall talent and of the talent we do have, we have serious deficiencies in roster fit, and overall consistency issues due to youth and the overall tenor of the squad.

But Rondo, yeah man. I don't think he is a max/near max star right now. Not in the current incarnation.

TP.

What Rondo needs is a scorer/closer. I'm not putting the losses on him since the team is wildly inconsistent and there's only so much he can do, but this team is full of role players who specialize on doing the "little things". Rondo is already the all-star of the little things.

As much flak as Melo gets on this board, I think he'd be a perfect player to pair with Rondo. He's not ball-dominant ala Lebron and he loves to shoot. Plus, he's a terrific closer.

The conundrum we face is that Rondo is an impending FA. If we could keep Rondo at around $12m per season, pairing him with another star would be a no-brainer, or at least, a far more practical solution than it currently is. In reality Rondo will command offers this offseason that we will have to come close to if we want to go with the *add stars around Rondo* route. Most likely those offers will come from teams that already have a scorer/closer (LAL/NYK; Kobe/Melo).

It would be sweet to be able to wait and see if Melo or some other star hits the trading block before we were to commit to Rondo, but we simply don't have that time. If we can't get another All-Star-caliber piece before the trade deadline, I think the best course of action would be to trade him for a lotto pick or a good young player. If an offer of that level doesn't come in and we can't get a star by the summer, we'd be better off letting his contract expire and watching him walk.

[TheFlex]

So does CP3, Westbrook, Wall and Co.

All great PGs need stars, and Rondo's no different.

Except that CP3 and Westbrook have had Blake, DeAndre, Tyson, David West, Durant, and Serge - all in their primes.

Rondo's had KG, Ray and Paul - all past their primes. Rondo's had a broke down KG, and a supposedly defensively-challenged Ray....and won WITH them - not BECAUSE of them.

And so far, I don't think we'll see CP3 or Westbrook's teams come out the West - at least this year.

And their windows, while still open - are getting smaller every year.

Why do we continue to isolate Rondo on this Blog and let the other supposed Star PGs get a free pass?

CP3 led multiple teams to the playoffs by himself. Not even going to look at his WS/48 numbers, which I'm sure are fantastic whether he has good teammates or not, if you're going to assert that West/Chandler = Ray/Pierce/KG.

Westbrook has never had a bad team so the parallel is faulty.

Wall has sported a steadily increasing WS/48. In 2012-13 (granted, an injury-derailed season), Wall posted a .134 WS/48. In 2013-14 at 23 years old Wall led the Wizards to the playoffs and posted a WS/48 of .128. So far this season his WS/48 is .147. There is no conclusion to be drawn that Wall needs good teammates to contribute wins to a ball club.

There is a conclusion, albeit a weak one given the sample size, to be drawn that Rondo does.

Whom did CP3 lead to the playoffs by himself? Which team?

And he never had a bad team either - like Westbrook. Nor does he (CP3) have one now.

Stat-crunching aside, I'm just curious as to what excuse we'll come up with in June when it's either DAL-Spurs or maybe even MEM in the Finals - and not Clips or OKC.

Currently David West and Roy Hibbert belong to a lotto-bound team. '14-'15 West-Hibbert may be slightly worse than '08-09 West-Chandler, though I'd disagree, but they are not *second seed in a very good WC to lotto team in a very bad EC* worse, even without the CP3 you are describing. CP3's teams have always been good because he is a true superstar and made them good. Rondo's impact does not result in Ws unless he has star mates.

The end-all be-all of this argument is not to see which players can win a championship with bad teammates. It is to see whether or not these teams are competitive with bad teammates and whether or not that has to do with consistently impactful performances from certain players.

We are not competitive. CP3-led teams are always competitive. OKC is always competitive but again the Westbrook parallel is irrelevant.

[Endless Paradise]

So does CP3, Westbrook, Wall and Co.

All great PGs need stars, and Rondo's no different.

Except that CP3 and Westbrook have had Blake, DeAndre, Tyson, David West, Durant, and Serge - all in their primes.

Rondo's had KG, Ray and Paul - all past their primes. Rondo's had a broke down KG, and a supposedly defensively-challenged Ray....and won WITH them - not BECAUSE of them.

And so far, I don't think we'll see CP3 or Westbrook's teams come out the West - at least this year.

And their windows, while still open - are getting smaller every year.

Why do we continue to isolate Rondo on this Blog and let the other supposed Star PGs get a free pass?

CP3 led multiple teams to the playoffs by himself. Not even going to look at his WS/48 numbers, which I'm sure are fantastic whether he has good teammates or not, if you're going to assert that West/Chandler = Ray/Pierce/KG.

Westbrook has never had a bad team so the parallel is faulty.

Wall has sported a steadily increasing WS/48. In 2012-13 (granted, an injury-derailed season), Wall posted a .134 WS/48. In 2013-14 at 23 years old Wall led the Wizards to the playoffs and posted a WS/48 of .128. So far this season his WS/48 is .147. There is no conclusion to be drawn that Wall needs good teammates to contribute wins to a ball club.

There is a conclusion, albeit a weak one given the sample size, to be drawn that Rondo does.

Whom did CP3 lead to the playoffs by himself? Which team?

And he never had a bad team either - like Westbrook. Nor does he (CP3) have one now.

Stat-crunching aside, I'm just curious as to what excuse we'll come up with in June when it's either DAL-Spurs or maybe even MEM in the Finals - and not Clips or OKC.

Considering OKC has been a WCF mainstay for three of the past four seasons (the one exception being when Westbrook got injured), I'd point to the fact that KD and Westbrook were out to start the season, which likely would lead to OKC not having home court advantage at any point in the playoffs.

[GreenFaith1819]

So does CP3, Westbrook, Wall and Co.

All great PGs need stars, and Rondo's no different.

Except that CP3 and Westbrook have had Blake, DeAndre, Tyson, David West, Durant, and Serge - all in their primes.

Rondo's had KG, Ray and Paul - all past their primes. Rondo's had a broke down KG, and a supposedly defensively-challenged Ray....and won WITH them - not BECAUSE of them.

And so far, I don't think we'll see CP3 or Westbrook's teams come out the West - at least this year.

And their windows, while still open - are getting smaller every year.

Why do we continue to isolate Rondo on this Blog and let the other supposed Star PGs get a free pass?

CP3 led multiple teams to the playoffs by himself. Not even going to look at his WS/48 numbers, which I'm sure are fantastic whether he has good teammates or not, if you're going to assert that West/Chandler = Ray/Pierce/KG.

Westbrook has never had a bad team so the parallel is faulty.

Wall has sported a steadily increasing WS/48. In 2012-13 (granted, an injury-derailed season), Wall posted a .134 WS/48. In 2013-14 at 23 years old Wall led the Wizards to the playoffs and posted a WS/48 of .128. So far this season his WS/48 is .147. There is no conclusion to be drawn that Wall needs good teammates to contribute wins to a ball club.

There is a conclusion, albeit a weak one given the sample size, to be drawn that Rondo does.

Whom did CP3 lead to the playoffs by himself? Which team?

And he never had a bad team either - like Westbrook. Nor does he (CP3) have one now.

Stat-crunching aside, I'm just curious as to what excuse we'll come up with in June when it's either DAL-Spurs or maybe even MEM in the Finals - and not Clips or OKC.

Currently David West and Roy Hibbert belong to a lotto-bound team. '14-'15 West-Hibbert may be slightly worse than '08-09 West-Chandler, though I'd disagree, but they are not *second seed in a very good WC to lotto team in a very bad EC* worse, even without the CP3 you are describing. CP3's teams have always been good because he is a true superstar and made them good. Rondo's impact does not result in Ws unless he has star mates.

The end-all be-all of this argument is not to see which players can win a championship with bad teammates. It is to see whether or not these teams are competitive with bad teammates and whether or not that has to do with consistently impactful performances from certain players.

We are not competitive. CP3-led teams are always competitive. OKC is always competitive but again the Westbrook parallel is irrelevant.

So you expect this current C's team to be as competitive talent-wise as the CP3/Westbrook teams?

That's an unfair standard.

[Chief]

Kobe is struggling to do it too.

[Celtics4ever]

We are not competitive. CP3-led teams are always competitive. OKC is always competitive but again the Westbrook parallel is irrelevant.

But we have Sullinger how could we not be competitive?

I thought Captain Obvious was just in commercials when I read this thread I learned I was wrong.

[TheFlex]

So does CP3, Westbrook, Wall and Co.

All great PGs need stars, and Rondo's no different.

Except that CP3 and Westbrook have had Blake, DeAndre, Tyson, David West, Durant, and Serge - all in their primes.

Rondo's had KG, Ray and Paul - all past their primes. Rondo's had a broke down KG, and a supposedly defensively-challenged Ray....and won WITH them - not BECAUSE of them.

And so far, I don't think we'll see CP3 or Westbrook's teams come out the West - at least this year.

And their windows, while still open - are getting smaller every year.

Why do we continue to isolate Rondo on this Blog and let the other supposed Star PGs get a free pass?

CP3 led multiple teams to the playoffs by himself. Not even going to look at his WS/48 numbers, which I'm sure are fantastic whether he has good teammates or not, if you're going to assert that West/Chandler = Ray/Pierce/KG.

Westbrook has never had a bad team so the parallel is faulty.

Wall has sported a steadily increasing WS/48. In 2012-13 (granted, an injury-derailed season), Wall posted a .134 WS/48. In 2013-14 at 23 years old Wall led the Wizards to the playoffs and posted a WS/48 of .128. So far this season his WS/48 is .147. There is no conclusion to be drawn that Wall needs good teammates to contribute wins to a ball club.

There is a conclusion, albeit a weak one given the sample size, to be drawn that Rondo does.

Whom did CP3 lead to the playoffs by himself? Which team?

And he never had a bad team either - like Westbrook. Nor does he (CP3) have one now.

Stat-crunching aside, I'm just curious as to what excuse we'll come up with in June when it's either DAL-Spurs or maybe even MEM in the Finals - and not Clips or OKC.

Currently David West and Roy Hibbert belong to a lotto-bound team. '14-'15 West-Hibbert may be slightly worse than '08-09 West-Chandler, though I'd disagree, but they are not *second seed in a very good WC to lotto team in a very bad EC* worse, even without the CP3 you are describing. CP3's teams have always been good because he is a true superstar and made them good. Rondo's impact does not result in Ws unless he has star mates.

The end-all be-all of this argument is not to see which players can win a championship with bad teammates. It is to see whether or not these teams are competitive with bad teammates and whether or not that has to do with consistently impactful performances from certain players.

We are not competitive. CP3-led teams are always competitive. OKC is always competitive but again the Westbrook parallel is irrelevant.

So you expect this current C's team to be as competitive talent-wise as the CP3/Westbrook teams?

That's an unfair standard.

I think you need a pair of these:

Kobe is struggling to do it too.

Kobe is a dinosaur. You can look at his teams post-Shaq/pre-Gasol and see that they were better teams than our current teams because of him.

We are not competitive. CP3-led teams are always competitive. OKC is always competitive but again the Westbrook parallel is irrelevant.

But we have Sullinger how could we not be competitive?

I thought Captain Obvious was just in commercials when I read this thread I learned I was wrong.

You must have misinterpreted my debunking of your incessantly negative claims re: Sullinger to mean that I think he is a superstar capable of making a bad team good.

[GreenFaith1819]

So does CP3, Westbrook, Wall and Co.

All great PGs need stars, and Rondo's no different.

Except that CP3 and Westbrook have had Blake, DeAndre, Tyson, David West, Durant, and Serge - all in their primes.

Rondo's had KG, Ray and Paul - all past their primes. Rondo's had a broke down KG, and a supposedly defensively-challenged Ray....and won WITH them - not BECAUSE of them.

And so far, I don't think we'll see CP3 or Westbrook's teams come out the West - at least this year.

And their windows, while still open - are getting smaller every year.

Why do we continue to isolate Rondo on this Blog and let the other supposed Star PGs get a free pass?

CP3 led multiple teams to the playoffs by himself. Not even going to look at his WS/48 numbers, which I'm sure are fantastic whether he has good teammates or not, if you're going to assert that West/Chandler = Ray/Pierce/KG.

Westbrook has never had a bad team so the parallel is faulty.

Wall has sported a steadily increasing WS/48. In 2012-13 (granted, an injury-derailed season), Wall posted a .134 WS/48. In 2013-14 at 23 years old Wall led the Wizards to the playoffs and posted a WS/48 of .128. So far this season his WS/48 is .147. There is no conclusion to be drawn that Wall needs good teammates to contribute wins to a ball club.

There is a conclusion, albeit a weak one given the sample size, to be drawn that Rondo does.

Whom did CP3 lead to the playoffs by himself? Which team?

And he never had a bad team either - like Westbrook. Nor does he (CP3) have one now.

Stat-crunching aside, I'm just curious as to what excuse we'll come up with in June when it's either DAL-Spurs or maybe even MEM in the Finals - and not Clips or OKC.

Currently David West and Roy Hibbert belong to a lotto-bound team. '14-'15 West-Hibbert may be slightly worse than '08-09 West-Chandler, though I'd disagree, but they are not *second seed in a very good WC to lotto team in a very bad EC* worse, even without the CP3 you are describing. CP3's teams have always been good because he is a true superstar and made them good. Rondo's impact does not result in Ws unless he has star mates.

The end-all be-all of this argument is not to see which players can win a championship with bad teammates. It is to see whether or not these teams are competitive with bad teammates and whether or not that has to do with consistently impactful performances from certain players.

We are not competitive. CP3-led teams are always competitive. OKC is always competitive but again the Westbrook parallel is irrelevant.

So you expect this current C's team to be as competitive talent-wise as the CP3/Westbrook teams?

That's an unfair standard.

I think you need a pair of these:



No, I think you're making an unclear comparison in regards to Rondo, to be honest.

[TheFlex]

I'm not making an unclear comparison. The only comparison I made was to Paul Pierce. You are the one who brought up all of these PGs and forced me to confirm my theory, which I did to my satisfaction.

If you added Rondo to Indiana, where would they be? 7th, 8th seed at best?

Now ask yourself how CP3 could take a team whose second and third best players are at best slightly better than West/Hibbert to a second seed in a tough Western Conference and a loss in seven games to the Spurs.

[GreenFaith1819]

I'm not making an unclear comparison. The only comparison I made was to Paul Pierce. You are the one who brought up all of these PGs and forced me to confirm my theory, which I did to my satisfaction.

If you added Rondo to Indiana, where would they be? 7th, 8th seed at best?

Now ask yourself how CP3 could take a team whose second and third best players are at best slightly better than West/Hibbert to a second seed in a tough Western Conference and a loss in seven games to the Spurs.

With a fully healthy Indiana team (PG, West and Hibbert) they are in the Finals.

Again - surround a good PG with talent and they win.

[TheFlex]

I'm not making an unclear comparison. The only comparison I made was to Paul Pierce. You are the one who brought up all of these PGs and forced me to confirm my theory, which I did to my satisfaction.

If you added Rondo to Indiana, where would they be? 7th, 8th seed at best?

Now ask yourself how CP3 could take a team whose second and third best players are at best slightly better than West/Hibbert to a second seed in a tough Western Conference and a loss in seven games to the Spurs.

With a fully healthy Indiana team (PG, West and Hibbert) they are in the Finals.

Again - surround a good PG with talent and they win.

No, the current Indiana team. Without George. Rondo/West/Hibbert. They're not any better than Atlanta is. If the '07-08 Hornets team (CP3, West, Chandler) was playing in today's Eastern Conference they might be the number one seed.