Author Topic: Sullinger is the worst defender on the team  (Read 14512 times)

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Re: Sullinger is the worst defender on the team
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2014, 11:58:08 PM »

Offline Chris22

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I'm just so glad the C's didn't / couldn't break the bank to get Kevin Love. Maybe it's because he's playing with Irving and James, but Sully is right there with Love stat wise per minute, with a higher PER.

The player, draft picks and salary Love wild have cost is insane compared to the small price paid for Sully, and we get to keep those picks to build with.

Could I see a link to that? Just curious!

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pf

Re: Sullinger is the worst defender on the team
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2014, 12:03:00 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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KO, Turner and Thornton are all terrible. Sully and Rondo aren't great, but they are way better than the first three

way better?? Rondo is one of the worse defenders on the team. Especially man to man.

Sully is a smart defender but saying he is way better than KO is a stretch. KO tries and with more strength won't be bullied as easily. 

when was the last time you seen Sully even block a shot before?   he can't even really alter shots from going in


Re: Sullinger is the worst defender on the team
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2014, 12:19:11 AM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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KO, Turner and Thornton are all terrible. Sully and Rondo aren't great, but they are way better than the first three

way better?? Rondo is one of the worse defenders on the team. Especially man to man.

Sully is a smart defender but saying he is way better than KO is a stretch. KO tries and with more strength won't be bullied as easily. 

when was the last time you seen Sully even block a shot before?   he can't even really alter shots from going in

He had one last night. When was the last time you were in touch with reality?

Re: Sullinger is the worst defender on the team
« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2014, 12:25:45 AM »

Offline BballTim

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KO, Turner and Thornton are all terrible. Sully and Rondo aren't great, but they are way better than the first three

way better?? Rondo is one of the worse defenders on the team. Especially man to man.

Sully is a smart defender but saying he is way better than KO is a stretch. KO tries and with more strength won't be bullied as easily. 

when was the last time you seen Sully even block a shot before?   he can't even really alter shots from going in

He had one last night. When was the last time you were in touch with reality?

  No kidding. Unsurprisingly, Sully blocks shots as often as KO.

Re: Sullinger is the worst defender on the team
« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2014, 01:26:24 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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KO, Turner and Thornton are all terrible. Sully and Rondo aren't great, but they are way better than the first three

way better?? Rondo is one of the worse defenders on the team. Especially man to man.

Sully is a smart defender but saying he is way better than KO is a stretch. KO tries and with more strength won't be bullied as easily. 

when was the last time you seen Sully even block a shot before?   he can't even really alter shots from going in

He had one last night. When was the last time you were in touch with reality?

When were you? 

Who was the better overall defender vs Pistons?

Sully or KO?
Rondo or Pressey?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 01:50:39 AM by triboy16f »

Re: Sullinger is the worst defender on the team
« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2014, 01:29:08 AM »

Offline TheFlex

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KO, Turner and Thornton are all terrible. Sully and Rondo aren't great, but they are way better than the first three

way better?? Rondo is one of the worse defenders on the team. Especially man to man.

Sully is a smart defender but saying he is way better than KO is a stretch. KO tries and with more strength won't be bullied as easily. 

when was the last time you seen Sully even block a shot before?   he can't even really alter shots from going in

It's amazing how easily can one assess players to their liking when the determining factor of such an assessment is what one sees with a biased eye.


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Re: Sullinger is the worst defender on the team
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2014, 01:39:18 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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KO, Turner and Thornton are all terrible. Sully and Rondo aren't great, but they are way better than the first three

way better?? Rondo is one of the worse defenders on the team. Especially man to man.

Sully is a smart defender but saying he is way better than KO is a stretch. KO tries and with more strength won't be bullied as easily. 

when was the last time you seen Sully even block a shot before?   he can't even really alter shots from going in

It's amazing how easily can one assess players to their liking when the determining factor of such an assessment is what one sees with a biased eye.

What are your answers for the questions i asked?

Re: Sullinger is the worst defender on the team
« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2014, 02:06:12 AM »

Offline chambers

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He's a pretty good defender in my opinion- he doesn't disrupt shots, but he's intelligent and has good anticipation with excellent footwork-which counts for a lot on defense. He gets a lot of deflections and with his quick hands he disrupts interior passing lanes. His problem is that he doesn't disrupt shots around the rim because of his lack of length. The Detroit game was always going to be tough for our big guys considering they are both power forwards with shorter wingspans playing against centers with length and athleticism. Against other power forwards, Sullinger does fine and holds his own. If you remember him playing with Garnett as a rookie he was a part 'enforcer' on the defensive end and did an awesome job of being physical with players like Tim Duncan, Tyson Chandler and DeMarcus Cousins- all while playing out of position and guarding these centers. One of my favorite Sully rookie moments was when he owned Tyson Chandler and the Knicks bench with his strength and basically tossed Chandler around like a rag doll. Chandler pushed him and shoved him and it completely threw him off his game.
If paired with a longer rim protecting type of center, he'd benefit so much because he won't have to help so much  like he does now with D League defender Olynyk by his side- and this is partly why Olynyk was put on the bench. Olynyk is such a terrible defender that if he's going to be wussy and not shoot open jumpshots then there's really no reason to start him, when Zeller is pretty capable of playing tougher defense inside. Having Zeller out there on D also helps Sullinger by taking some defensive pressure off him. I think you'll find Sullinger's numbers get even better this season if Zeller continues to start because he's been expending A LOT of energy helping Olynyk. I posted this in another thread but I'll post it here because it's relevant.

 He's actually 'played' less than 2 seasons of NBA basketball because of his back injury. In his 3rd season, his numbers are better than David West, Greg Monroe, Zac Randolph, Taj Gibson, Josh Smith, David Lee, LaMarcus Aldridge, Carlos Boozer were in their 3rd seasons.

He currently isn't good enough to be a top 3 player on a championship team- but this is also his first season playing power forward in the NBA. His sidekick is Kelly Olynyk who is not a traditional center which is a huge disadvantage on team defense and help defense. Give him 2 years in the NBA and he's likely going to improve even more.

He's an excellent player and of all the third year players in the NBA, and it's fair to say he's a top 5 player from the 2012 draft who we picked up with the 21st pick.
2012 draft best players:

Anthony Davis pick #1
Damian Lillard pick #2
Andre Drummond pick #9
Jared Sullinger pick #21
Bradley Beal pick#3

He's also one of only 4 power forwards in the NBA to average more than 15 points a game and shoot 35%+ from three.
Those 4 players are:

Nowitzki
Love
Ibaka
Sullinger

Assuming he can improve his free throw percentage to above 75% (currently at 68%), he should post per 36 numbers of AT LEAST 20 points/10 rebounds by the end of next season.
He currently posts per 36 numbers of 19.5 points and 10.1 rebounds.
If we get really lucky and he becomes a 40% 3 point shooter and shoots 80%+ from the line, he'd possibly be a 22 point, 10 rebound monster with stretch ability that can guard the PF and Center positions when needed.

In other words, he is projecting to be a better player than David West was as an All Star in 2007 and 2008 averaging 19.3 points and 7.5 rebounds per 36 minutes a game- and West had Chris Paul and Tyson Chandler on that team to help him on defense and get him the ball at his favorite spots. (which Rondo does a good job already with Sullinger. Olynyk does not help guard the paint like Tyson Chandler. lol).
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 02:16:51 AM by chambers »
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Sullinger is the worst defender on the team
« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2014, 02:15:56 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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To the title of this thread - I thought it was Rondo.  Isn't he the worst at everything (sarcasm)?

Re: Sullinger is the worst defender on the team
« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2014, 02:24:55 AM »

Offline TheFlex

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KO, Turner and Thornton are all terrible. Sully and Rondo aren't great, but they are way better than the first three

way better?? Rondo is one of the worse defenders on the team. Especially man to man.

Sully is a smart defender but saying he is way better than KO is a stretch. KO tries and with more strength won't be bullied as easily. 

when was the last time you seen Sully even block a shot before?   he can't even really alter shots from going in

It's amazing how easily can one assess players to their liking when the determining factor of such an assessment is what one sees with a biased eye.

What are your answers for the questions i asked?

Sorry, I was posting when you were and didn't see your post above.

I don't think there's any question Rondo is a better defender than Pressey. If this wasn't true I have a hard time seeing us continually forcing Evan Turner to be the team's backup PG without Smart. There simply isn't any other explanation for Pressey's lack of playing time with Smart out. There's no reason for Stevens to be sitting him. He's a low-cost, young, undrafted PG that would fit in perfectly with Stevens' philosophy of showcasing and developing young, unproven talent, except Stevens clearly believes there's not much talent to be showcased.

I don't hate on Pressey as much as other posters do on this site. I think he's a perfectly capable facilitator and someone with the offensive savvy to be a backup PG on a pretty good team, actually, like a poor man's washed up Andre Miller (that isn't as bad as it sounds). But clearly he is not good enough defensively to see minutes or else we'd be seeing him more often on the court.

As for KO and Sully... the question is clearly a result of your preference for Olynyk. The answer is obviously Sully. If Sully's defense was worse than KO's he would have his minutes reduced, not the other way around. Here's some stats that back up CBS' thinking in benching Olynyk and putting more trust in Sully:

Per-48 mins. in 2014-15, opposing PFs post around 26/12 on Sully with a PER of 21.2 and an eFG% of around 52.5%. Opposing Cs post around 14/11.5 with a PER of 10.8 and an eFG% of about 47.5%.

Per-48 mins., opposing PFs post around 19/12 on Olynyk with a PER of around 13.5 and an eFG% of around .421%. Opposing Cs post around 22.5/13 with a PER of 20.5 and an eFG% of around 55.5%.

Keep in mind that Sully plays at least 10% of the team's total minutes at both positions (43% at PF and 18% at C), while Olynyk plays only about 5% of the team's total minutes at PF (and 47% at C). This is significant to note because it provides context for Olynyk's halfway decent defensive showing at PF.

It must also be noted that while Sully has a PER of about three units less than his opponents when playing PF, he has a PER of almost 16 units more than his opponents at center. At both positions, Olynyk's PER net differential is negative.

When Sullinger is off the court, opponents score about three points more per 48 minutes than when he is on the court. When Olynyk is off the court, opponents score about 2.5 points less per 48 minutes than when he is on the court.

When Sullinger is off the court, opponent eFG% increases about 1%. When Olynyk is off the court, opponent eFG% decreases about 1%.

And your point about shot-blocking doesn't seem to be affirmed by advanced stats. Per 48 mins. the Cs block about 4% of opponent field goals when Olynyk is on the floor. When off, they block about 5% of opponent field goals. Whether Sully is on or off the court, that number remains consistent at 4%.

And, although I don't think it's that meaningful, of the team's five most used five-man rotations, the one with the highest defensive rating includes Sullinger at C, Green at PF, and Olynyk on the bench.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 03:01:48 AM by TheFlex »


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Re: Sullinger is the worst defender on the team
« Reply #40 on: December 05, 2014, 07:06:34 AM »

Offline CFAN38

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In my opinion sully is a draw on D meaning what he brings to the table (solid individual post D, good rotation and rebounding) negates his negative aspects (lack of length and quickness). With the proper defensive pieces around him his short comings would be negated. The problem is KO is a - defender at center, zeller is passable but doesn't have what it takes to anchor a D. That creates a void for athletic finishers to get to the pain the finish. Add to that Rondo, Turner and Thorton all being matadors and you have a poor defensive team.

I haven't personally payed a ton of attention to this in game but I wonder if part of the problem may also be coming from the preseason push for more pressure on the perimeter. This could be creating bad habits in the regular season. 
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Re: Sullinger is the worst defender on the team
« Reply #41 on: December 05, 2014, 07:33:59 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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KO, Turner and Thornton are all terrible. Sully and Rondo aren't great, but they are way better than the first three

way better?? Rondo is one of the worse defenders on the team. Especially man to man.

Sully is a smart defender but saying he is way better than KO is a stretch. KO tries and with more strength won't be bullied as easily. 

when was the last time you seen Sully even block a shot before?   he can't even really alter shots from going in

It's amazing how easily can one assess players to their liking when the determining factor of such an assessment is what one sees with a biased eye.

What are your answers for the questions i asked?

Sorry, I was posting when you were and didn't see your post above.

I don't think there's any question Rondo is a better defender than Pressey. If this wasn't true I have a hard time seeing us continually forcing Evan Turner to be the team's backup PG without Smart. There simply isn't any other explanation for Pressey's lack of playing time with Smart out. There's no reason for Stevens to be sitting him. He's a low-cost, young, undrafted PG that would fit in perfectly with Stevens' philosophy of showcasing and developing young, unproven talent, except Stevens clearly believes there's not much talent to be showcased.

I don't hate on Pressey as much as other posters do on this site. I think he's a perfectly capable facilitator and someone with the offensive savvy to be a backup PG on a pretty good team, actually, like a poor man's washed up Andre Miller (that isn't as bad as it sounds). But clearly he is not good enough defensively to see minutes or else we'd be seeing him more often on the court.

As for KO and Sully... the question is clearly a result of your preference for Olynyk. The answer is obviously Sully. If Sully's defense was worse than KO's he would have his minutes reduced, not the other way around. Here's some stats that back up CBS' thinking in benching Olynyk and putting more trust in Sully:

Per-48 mins. in 2014-15, opposing PFs post around 26/12 on Sully with a PER of 21.2 and an eFG% of around 52.5%. Opposing Cs post around 14/11.5 with a PER of 10.8 and an eFG% of about 47.5%.

Per-48 mins., opposing PFs post around 19/12 on Olynyk with a PER of around 13.5 and an eFG% of around .421%. Opposing Cs post around 22.5/13 with a PER of 20.5 and an eFG% of around 55.5%.

Keep in mind that Sully plays at least 10% of the team's total minutes at both positions (43% at PF and 18% at C), while Olynyk plays only about 5% of the team's total minutes at PF (and 47% at C). This is significant to note because it provides context for Olynyk's halfway decent defensive showing at PF.

It must also be noted that while Sully has a PER of about three units less than his opponents when playing PF, he has a PER of almost 16 units more than his opponents at center. At both positions, Olynyk's PER net differential is negative.

When Sullinger is off the court, opponents score about three points more per 48 minutes than when he is on the court. When Olynyk is off the court, opponents score about 2.5 points less per 48 minutes than when he is on the court.

When Sullinger is off the court, opponent eFG% increases about 1%. When Olynyk is off the court, opponent eFG% decreases about 1%.

And your point about shot-blocking doesn't seem to be affirmed by advanced stats. Per 48 mins. the Cs block about 4% of opponent field goals when Olynyk is on the floor. When off, they block about 5% of opponent field goals. Whether Sully is on or off the court, that number remains consistent at 4%.

And, although I don't think it's that meaningful, of the team's five most used five-man rotations, the one with the highest defensive rating includes Sullinger at C, Green at PF, and Olynyk on the bench.

I asked you who was a better overall defender vs the Pistons a few days ago.

KO or Sully?
Pressey or Rondo?

To me all you did was sidestep the question. BC KO and Pressey were better. 

KO and Pressey, such horrible defenders arent they? KOs confidence was shot before the pistons game.   We have seen him able to play capable D against teams like Detroit, Bulls, Nets etc. He just needs to be consistent , have confidence in himself and not overhelp so much.

And all your mumbo jumbo about Rondo vs Pressey on defense is a joke for this season. Rondo has even admitted he needs to play better d. It starts with him. Yet so far he lets his man blow by him time after time again. Rarely backpeddling, raising the arms effort to try to contain the drive. Losing focus after pnrs etc. Do you see Pressey having these issues as often? Against detroit Pressey did such a good job, Jennings couldnt breathe

Re: Sullinger is the worst defender on the team
« Reply #42 on: December 05, 2014, 07:43:46 AM »

Offline Otsje P

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How many minutes did we have KO guarding Monroe?

Sully had to guard Monroe, their best player, by far. And who did KO guard?

Sully and Bass did Monroe, KO didn't, or perhaps just for a minute.

So what do you expect someone to answer? You can only compare Sully's and KO's defense, if they guarding the same player.

Re: Sullinger is the worst defender on the team
« Reply #43 on: December 05, 2014, 08:01:54 AM »

Offline clover

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How many minutes did we have KO guarding Monroe?

Sully had to guard Monroe, their best player, by far. And who did KO guard?

Sully and Bass did Monroe, KO didn't, or perhaps just for a minute.

So what do you expect someone to answer? You can only compare Sully's and KO's defense, if they guarding the same player.

KO spent a fair amount of time on Drummond, who is a tough physical matchup. But per usual he was also doing a lot of help and recovery. I thought he had some great defensive stretches in the game.

Re: Sullinger is the worst defender on the team
« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2014, 08:04:55 AM »

Offline gpap

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I don't agree with this.

Sullinger actually isn't that bad of a defender at all (not saying he's great, but he's not bad.)

Despite his impressive 2nd half on Wednesday, Olynyk is alot worse on D than Sully is.