Looks like Tommy can't take it anymore

[BDeCosta26]

Trade Rondo for a big defender and turn the team over to Smart.

I thought Smart was Marcus Banks 2.0? I think the real Marcus Banks is looking for work. I bet we could just call him, no? Or I take it you've realized that Smart is a better player than Banks ever was?

Sorry, I've been stalking the forums forever, never posted, but I noticed you stopped calling him that, and I just wanted to know why?

[ChainSmokingLikeDino]

{Of Heinsohn's advice, Rondo said, "Just stay positive. Continue to push the pace -- in the fourth quarter we tend to walk the ball up the court. Myself, I was just sharing my thoughts about how it’s hard to push the pace when the ball’s going through the net every time. It’s just difficult. Like I said, it starts on the defensive end of the floor."}

So he knows where the problem is and tried to tell Rondo (not the first time obviously)
and Rondo, either is making excuses to not to do it, or he want's to but simply can't do it

I'm pretty sure the spurs pushs the pace almost everytime in the finals no matter it's a made basket or not, so it can be done, and that shows how Rondo's playstyle(mentality) doesn't fit BS's motion offense-pace&space system, yet

Terrifying quotes. 

The Spurs pace for the 13/14 playoffs was 94.78. The finals saw a pace of 89.80. The Celtics currently have a pace of 100.03 which is the second highest in the entire NBA.  But, please, go on.

[fairweatherfan]

Tommy's answer to everything that has ever ailed the Celtics is pushing the pace.

Probably because the two biggest differences between the modern style of play and Tommy's day are the three-pointer, and a much slower pace.  The title teams Tommy played on routinely cracked 120 and even 130 pace ratings.  We're #2 in the league at just over 100.

Which means it makes sense he'd see it that way, but can also be safely disregarded.

[timobusa]

Trade Rondo for a big defender and turn the team over to Smart.

Ok, Gary Tanguay.

[D.o.s.]

Tommy's answer to everything that has ever ailed the Celtics is pushing the pace.

Probably because the two biggest differences between the modern style of play and Tommy's day are the three-pointer, and a much slower pace.  The title teams Tommy played on routinely cracked 120 and even 130 pace ratings.  We're #2 in the league at just over 100.

Which means it makes sense he'd see it that way, but can also be safely disregarded.

Exactly.

[gift]

I think there's some truth in both sides. There are several possessions per game when the Celtics have the ability to push the pace, but for whatever reason (bad habits, personnel on the floor, game management, fatigue), do not.

I don't think it has quite as much to do with made or missed baskets. I think there is plenty of opportunity to push the "pace" even in the half court (pace is a tricky word because it's been used to describe shots taken, but I believe pace should more accurately reflect ball movement, or how much you make the defense move).

Just because a team is getting back on defense does not mean their defense is set and in position. There is still plenty of opportunity in transition to dictate the terms of the possession even when the defense is ahead of the ball. However, with the current Celtics squad I think this is largely a personnel matter. For instance, ideally the ball gets advanced via pass up the court to speed things up. However, Rondo often gets the ball around 3/4 or almost full court, especially when he's getting the rebound. He may have an opportunity to advance it to Avery Bradley or Evan Turner around half court, which would create a more up-tempo attack. Personally, I don't like Bradley or Turner taking it from half court with the defense ahead of them and Rondo still in the back court. In these scenarios I'd rather just have Rondo take the ball the extra 1/4 length of the court than advance the ball to one of these players (it's different if one of these players is ahead of the defense, or if they are further than half court).

That being said, where I would really like to see improvement is in the half court. Sometimes ball movement is great, but there are many times where 3-5 seconds are wasted with the ball mostly stationary behind the 3 pt line. I'd like to see better use of this time to increase half court pace/ball movement. They've been getting some really great shots for Evan Turner lately, but I feel like they aren't good about transition back to moving the ball around to other players after that. I think that's one reason the fourth quarters get stagnant.

[Chris22]

Trade Rondo for a big defender and turn the team over to Smart.

I thought Smart was Marcus Banks 2.0? I think the real Marcus Banks is looking for work. I bet we could just call him, no? Or I take it you've realized that Smart is a better player than Banks ever was?

Sorry, I've been stalking the forums forever, never posted, but I noticed you stopped calling him that, and I just wanted to know why?

I never said that.
You have me confused with cb8883.

Here is the link....
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=72068.15

[saltlover]

Are you new to watching basketball?  Rondo is right - transition offense starts on defense.  Nine times out of 10, if a basket is made, the other team is going to get back.  If the basket was a putback from an offensive rebound, you might have the opportunity to run because a couple players might be out of position, but only if your guys going for the rebound are able to recover more quickly.  A couple times a game you might catch the other team napping and be able to push it from a miss, but you can't do it often, because they're not idiots.  Furthermore, transition offense from a made basket typically requires a pass covering most of the court to take advantage of your player who got behind the defense --- these passes are quite risky and can lead to a turnover as much as a fast break.

When you get a rebound, on the other hand, you can start your transition faster.  Rondo has known this his entire career -- it's why he gets rebounds, so he can push the basketball more quickly, as opposed to a big getting the rebound and looking to pass to Rondo, which slows your transition.  It's one reason why Stevens wants multiple ball-handlers on the floor as well, so that there are multiple players who can start transition offense.

It goes the other way too -- a made basket helps set your defense too, so while good offense starts from an opponent's miss, good defense starts from your own make.  This is partly why (in addition to randomness) basketball is often a game of runs.  You make a basket, which helps your defense, causing the other guys to miss a basket, which gets you into your offense better, so you make a basket and repeat the cycle.

Right--but pace isn't only dependent on transition offense.

Where did I talk about "pace"?  This thread is about Tommy wanting Rondo to run it up the floor always (or someone other than Rondo when Rondo's out), and Rondo saying that it's easier said than done after the other guys have reset their defense after a made basket, and thus that good defense leads to good offense, which is true and shouldn't be controversial but for the fact that Rondo said it.  If Tony Parker said it, which he would if asked, everyone would be nodding their heads in agreement.

[playdream]

Are you new to watching basketball?  Rondo is right - transition offense starts on defense.  Nine times out of 10, if a basket is made, the other team is going to get back.  If the basket was a putback from an offensive rebound, you might have the opportunity to run because a couple players might be out of position, but only if your guys going for the rebound are able to recover more quickly.  A couple times a game you might catch the other team napping and be able to push it from a miss, but you can't do it often, because they're not idiots.  Furthermore, transition offense from a made basket typically requires a pass covering most of the court to take advantage of your player who got behind the defense --- these passes are quite risky and can lead to a turnover as much as a fast break.

When you get a rebound, on the other hand, you can start your transition faster.  Rondo has known this his entire career -- it's why he gets rebounds, so he can push the basketball more quickly, as opposed to a big getting the rebound and looking to pass to Rondo, which slows your transition.  It's one reason why Stevens wants multiple ball-handlers on the floor as well, so that there are multiple players who can start transition offense.

It goes the other way too -- a made basket helps set your defense too, so while good offense starts from an opponent's miss, good defense starts from your own make.  This is partly why (in addition to randomness) basketball is often a game of runs.  You make a basket, which helps your defense, causing the other guys to miss a basket, which gets you into your offense better, so you make a basket and repeat the cycle.

Right--but pace isn't only dependent on transition offense.

Where did I talk about "pace"?  This thread is about Tommy wanting Rondo to run it up the floor always (or someone other than Rondo when Rondo's out), and Rondo saying that it's easier said than done after the other guys have reset their defense after a made basket, and thus that good defense leads to good offense, which is true and shouldn't be controversial but for the fact that Rondo said it.  If Tony Parker said it, which he would if asked, everyone would be nodding their heads in agreement.

Tony Parker will just do it rather than make excuses

[chambers]

You remind me of triboy16 it's simply uncanny. Your disdain for Rondo and desperation for change on this team, combined with your lack of understanding of basketball are very frustrating. It's either that you don't understand basketball, or you choose to hate on Rondo without consideration to what the statistics say, or to how silly you sound.

Aren't we top 3 in pace and top 3 in shot attempts? We are number one in the NBA in points allowed in the paint. ie team scores- gets back on defense.
What Rondo's saying is that a lack of a decent rim protector simply crushes this team's ability to capitalize on fast break that Tommy is talking about.

 Tommy loves to harp on about pushing the ball up, Rondo is 100% correct that for him to push the pace any more, he needs those fast break opportunities with solid defense and forced turnovers/defensive rebounds that lead to easy transition points.

They are trying to develop and master an offense of ball movement in the half court which is exactly what has made the Spurs so good. Stevens' ultimate goal appears to be to create a two headed offensive snake. A team that gets high % looks with ball movement ala the Spurs, whilst also being a dominant fast break offense that makes opponents pay on missed baskets.

Remind you of any other recently successful teams?
I'll give you a hint. The team's name starts with H and ends in T.
The problem is that these teams have:
-Multiple All Star caliber players and at least one NBA league MVP player.
-top 3 NBA defenses in the playoffs.

 And for what it's worth, Rondo is considered one of the smartest players and toughest competitors in the NBA today. I mean Tommy Heinsohn is a living legend, but please don't take what he says as if it's scientific fact every time-he's obviously clueless with regards as to how much this team is currently pushing the ball and part of the reason he loves it is because he played on a team with Bill Russell, KC Jones, Sam Jones and Bob Cousy, whilst he coached a team of Dave Cowens, Jo Jo and John Havlicheck. His teams were the equivalent of today's Spurs and Heat teams.
 
 Not a bad pedigree to promote 'pushin' da baaawwwllll up tha caaawt everryytyyyyymee Raaaannnddo' and how well it works if you just do it as much as possible.
 
If you're going to push the ball without decent three point shooters and persist with mid range jumpshots as your daily bread, you can't expect much more than bad percentages and lost games. Add in a lack of interior defensive capability and you have a recipe for lots of bricks and lots of points scored against you.

 If this team can somehow get an elite defensive big like Roy Hibbert stopping all the made baskets against us, and thus increasing the number of quick outlet passes to Rondo, Green and Smart- we will be scoring more transition points and those transition points will be of a higher percentage or higher quality of shot attempt.

[D.o.s.]

'pushin' da baaawwwllll up tha caaawt everryytyyyyymee Raaaannnddo'

 

Great post, chambers, but this is a special shade of gold.

[mmmmm]

You remind me of triboy16 it's simply uncanny. Your disdain for Rondo and desperation for change on this team, combined with your lack of understanding of basketball are very frustrating. It's either that you don't understand basketball, or you choose to hate on Rondo without consideration to what the statistics say, or to how silly you sound.

Aren't we top 3 in pace and top 3 in shot attempts? We are number one in the NBA in points allowed in the paint. ie team scores- gets back on defense.
What Rondo's saying is that a lack of a decent rim protector simply crushes this team's ability to capitalize on fast break that Tommy is talking about.

 Tommy loves to harp on about pushing the ball up, Rondo is 100% correct that for him to push the pace any more, he needs those fast break opportunities with solid defense and forced turnovers/defensive rebounds that lead to easy transition points.

They are trying to develop and master an offense of ball movement in the half court which is exactly what has made the Spurs so good. Stevens' ultimate goal appears to be to create a two headed offensive snake. A team that gets high % looks with ball movement ala the Spurs, whilst also being a dominant fast break offense that makes opponents pay on missed baskets.

Remind you of any other recently successful teams?
I'll give you a hint. The team's name starts with H and ends in T.
The problem is that these teams have:
-Multiple All Star caliber players and at least one NBA league MVP player.
-top 3 NBA defenses in the playoffs.

 And for what it's worth, Rondo is considered one of the smartest players and toughest competitors in the NBA today. I mean Tommy Heinsohn is a living legend, but please don't take what he says as if it's scientific fact every time-he's obviously clueless with regards as to how much this team is currently pushing the ball and part of the reason he loves it is because he played on a team with Bill Russell, KC Jones, Sam Jones and Bob Cousy, whilst he coached a team of Dave Cowens, Jo Jo and John Havlicheck. His teams were the equivalent of today's Spurs and Heat teams.
 
 Not a bad pedigree to promote 'pushin' da baaawwwllll up tha caaawt everryytyyyyymee Raaaannnddo' and how well it works if you just do it as much as possible.
 
If you're going to push the ball without decent three point shooters and persist with mid range jumpshots as your daily bread, you can't expect much more than bad percentages and lost games. Add in a lack of interior defensive capability and you have a recipe for lots of bricks and lots of points scored against you.

 If this team can somehow get an elite defensive big like Roy Hibbert stopping all the made baskets against us, and thus increasing the number of quick outlet passes to Rondo, Green and Smart- we will be scoring more transition points and those transition points will be of a higher percentage or higher quality of shot attempt.

The thing is, I don't think Tommy disagrees with Rondo on this point at all.  Tommy has frequently pointed out the need for stops and goes on often about how defense _creates_ offense.

The Rondo haters seem to have latched on to this event as if it is somehow a case of Tommy correcting Rondo or telling him to do things differently. 

I took it as Tommy encouraging Rondo to keep doing what he is doing, to stick with the process and have faith that results will come.     That Rondo (correctly) pointed out that failing to get stops makes pushing the ball harder isn't arguing with Tommy on whether to push the pace.  It's pointing out a truth as part of their conversation.

They are adults who are both committed to the game of basketball.  They seem capable of having an adult conversation.

[sed522002]

From these quotes Rondo is very receptive to what Tommy is saying:

"Tommy is a guy I've been talking to since Day One," Rondo said. "He's been a big fan of mine and I believe in what he's done here in the past. He's done it all. Anytime a guy like Tommy wants to share something, I always try to listen."

"He's the biggest supporter here," Rondo said of Heinsohn. "He's here every night, at every home game. He's rooting for us. He wants the best for our team. And he had some good advice for me. I'm going to take it and share that with my guys and figure some things out."

[Roy H.]

[P]ace isn't only dependent on transition offense.

I'm surprised that this is a controversial point, but it seems as though it is.

[saltlover]

[P]ace isn't only dependent on transition offense.

I'm surprised that this is a controversial point, but it seems as though it is.

It's not controversial, but it's off-topic for the discussion, which is about transition offense, and not pace at large.  Tommy wants the Celtics to get the ball across half-court faster and to attack the defense before it's set -- we're not talking about how quickly you take a shot out of a half-court offense.