POLL: Kelly or Sully

[vjcsmoke]

I think KO's skillset at his size is a rare find.
I like Sully, don't get me wrong but he is pretty much developed now.
A good strong rebounder/defender who can score from close to medium range.

sully's 3 point shot seems to be improving which is good, but I feel that KO's outside shooting touch is better. KO also has better handles and passing.  If he continues what he did after the all-star break Kelly has a higher ceiling to reach.

[twistedrico]

I like both these guys a lot for a number of reasons. It seems like Sullinger is ready to have a breakout year which to me would be 16-8 in close to 82 games. 

[obnoxiousmime]

I voted Olynyk because he would seem to fit better on a good team with star players around him. Ideally you'd want someone better than Sully doing what he does if you hope to be a contending team. I know my reasoning might sound a little strange but sometimes you just want a solid role player instead of a good-but-not great guy. That doesn't mean Sully can't be a role player but Olynyk's skills (better long-range shooting, unselfish attitude, passing ability) just seem better suited for the role.

Also, I feel like undersized PFs like Sullinger who rebound and shoot a little are easier to find in the draft or around the league than stretch 4s with Olynyk's size/shoot/pass combination. That makes Sullinger a little less valuable as an asset in my eyes.

So by your estimation, Sully is selfish, lacks passing ability, and merely shoots a little... I don't know what player you've been watching.

I find your analysis of Sullinger severely lacking.

And I think you took my comments about some of the positives of Olynyk's game as negatives in Sully's, which isn't what I meant. I guess a better way of putting is, I feel Olynyk's skills and profile are more unique than Sullinger's. Of course, this is assuming Olynyk can reach his ceiling because right now Sullinger is more experienced and advanced.

Sullinger still has some room to grow (no pun intended) in his game as well, but I would say his ceilling is more defined at this point. I am eager to see what he can do this year with better conditioning, however.

[Shamrocker]

Love both, but I'll take Sully. Better rebounder, better interior scorer, faaaar better defender, and, while's not the outside shooter that KO is, he's more than serviceable--as he'll show this season.  The notion that Sully is somehow fully developed, or at his ceiling is utter nonsense.

We keep hearing that Sully is undersized--and perhaps that's true---but so is KO, just in a different way.

[Rondo9]

Kelly.  I still think there is more growth to be had for his game.

I think what we're seeing from Sully now is close to what his ceiling is. 

That being said, I'd have no problem moving either of them in a package deal.

I agree. I think Olynyk can offer more to a contending team. He reminds of David Lee a bit, in that for a big guy, he can score from outside the perimeter and give you some offense.

Sully is a decent power forward, but a bit undersized and hence would probably get outrebounded and outmuscled by taller power forwards

Sullinger held his own against Tim Duncan last year.

[nickagneta]

I think Sully is due for an 18/10 year playing over 30MPG.

I think Olynyk will show some growth but not hit the highs in his overall all around game that Sully will.

Sully is a good defender. Olynyk, well I have trouble calling him a passable defender. His defense is just poor.

For that reason I think Sully has a better year as he will have a net positive on this team and unless Olynyl is used as a scoring option off the bench, I am not sure he will be a net positive for the team, especially if he is playing primarily against starting centers and PFs who will abuse him.

[positivitize]

It depends what you want,  if you take player potential into account, and if you take team potential into account.

Right now, Sully is the marginally better choice. He is sligtly less effective at the offensive end (I still don't trust his 3s), but and his strength and bulk are excellent defensive attributes. I'd give him a 6.5 Offense, and a 7.5 Defence.

I feel like Sully's cap is an Al Jefferson type. A strong traditional Power Forward who will get you rebounds and points near the hoop. If you want a traditional power forward on your team, Sully is your man.

HOWEVER

Olynyk is not *that* far behind Sully defensively right now. He put on muscle over the summer, and looks much more comfortable than he did last year when it comes to guarding stronger post players. And as much great as Sully is offensively, Olynyk has more crafty tools on that end. Olynyk's passing, shooting, driving, and creativity on the offensive end have him at a 7.5 Offence. Currently, I'd give him a 6.5 on defense.

Olynyk's potential Cap as a player though is a Dirk Nowitzki type player. Olynyk has the potential to be an utter matchup nightmare. Maybe I've drunk the punch on this one, but I think that Olynyk has all-star potential, and would be far more valuable in a modern NBA style team moving away from low post bangers to three point shooters/divers. Olynyk also has the height to play the 5--Something that Sully will never have. Olynyk changed his body quite a bit over the off season, where Sully still looks like his same effectively pudgy self.

Do you want a player who is 60% of the way to being Al Jefferson, or a player who is 50% of the way to being Dirk Nowitzki? Remember. There is no guarantee that either player will progress any further than they are right now. The question on who is better depends entirely on the direction you want the team to take, and how much faith you have in the player to realize their potential. There really isn't an objectively true answer to this, but I, ever the optimist, am going with Olynyk.

[celtics24]

Kelly.  I still think there is more growth to be had for his game.

I think what we're seeing from Sully now is close to what his ceiling is. 

That being said, I'd have no problem moving either of them in a package deal.

I agree. I think Olynyk can offer more to a contending team. He reminds of David Lee a bit, in that for a big guy, he can score from outside the perimeter and give you some offense.

Sully is a decent power forward, but a bit undersized and hence would probably get outrebounded and outmuscled by taller power forwards

you must not watch too many celtics games sully knows how to rebound..he pushes other pfs around not the other way

[TheFlex]

Kelly.  I still think there is more growth to be had for his game.

I think what we're seeing from Sully now is close to what his ceiling is. 

That being said, I'd have no problem moving either of them in a package deal.

This claim is pretty baseless. Sully has become really, really underrated on this forum.

Sully is around the same age Olynyk is, if I'm correct. I don't think we expect either of them to greatly improve their individual skills. Sully is already a great post player, a great rebounder, a good shooter, an adept passer with court vision, a solid face-up threat from the elbow and a solid defender. Olynyk is a great shooter, a great passer with court vision, an above-average ball-handler for his position, a decent rebounder, an OK post player and a bad defender. Sully probably has room to grow as a face-up threat from the elbow and Olynyk can improve his post game but all in all, it looks like their individual skills have peaked.

However the intrigue surrounding Olynyk is his potential to put all of this together. Can he shoot  50/35+/85, grab 5 or so assists and 8 or so rebounds all on the same night? If so, he's a potent offensive player. But the same can be said for Sully. There is no reason to suggest that Sully doesn't have the potential to put up 18-20 points/game, grab 10 rebounds and dish 3-4 assists on 50/32/80 shooting while playing respectable defense. Again, as with Olynyk, the potential IMO comes from his ability to put it all together, not necessarily any major improvement to individual aspects of his game. So if Olynyk has potential at 23 with relatively peaked skills, why doesn't Sully?

[Donoghus]

Kelly.  I still think there is more growth to be had for his game.

I think what we're seeing from Sully now is close to what his ceiling is. 

That being said, I'd have no problem moving either of them in a package deal.

This claim is pretty baseless. Sully has become really, really underrated on this forum.

Sully is around the same age Olynyk is, if I'm correct. I don't think we expect either of them to greatly improve their individual skills. Sully is already a great post player, a great rebounder, a good shooter, an adept passer with court vision, a solid face-up threat from the elbow and a solid defender. Olynyk is a great shooter, a great passer with court vision, an above-average ball-handler for his position, a decent rebounder, an OK post player and a bad defender. Sully probably has room to grow as a face-up threat from the elbow and Olynyk can improve his post game but all in all, it looks like their individual skills have peaked.

However the intrigue surrounding Olynyk is his potential to put all of this together. Can he shoot  50/35+/85, grab 5 or so assists and 8 or so rebounds all on the same night? If so, he's a potent offensive player. But the same can be said for Sully. There is no reason to suggest that Sully doesn't have the potential to put up 18-20 points/game, grab 10 rebounds and dish 3-4 assists on 50/32/80 shooting while playing respectable defense. Again, as with Olynyk, the potential IMO comes from his ability to put it all together, not necessarily any major improvement to individual aspects of his game. So if Olynyk has potential at 23 with relatively peaked skills, why doesn't Sully?

So subjective = baseless now?  That's a new one.  Jeez....   So I guess that makes your argument just as baseless too, right?  There's actually no reason to suggest that he does have the potential either to put up your numbers, either.   Outside the eyeball test, which, again, is completely subjective.

I think his game will make incremental improvements but I don't think its going to grow leaps & bounds from what I've seen on the court. 

[BudweiserCeltic]

Kelly.  I still think there is more growth to be had for his game.

I think what we're seeing from Sully now is close to what his ceiling is. 

That being said, I'd have no problem moving either of them in a package deal.

This claim is pretty baseless. Sully has become really, really underrated on this forum.

Sully is around the same age Olynyk is, if I'm correct. I don't think we expect either of them to greatly improve their individual skills. Sully is already a great post player, a great rebounder, a good shooter, an adept passer with court vision, a solid face-up threat from the elbow and a solid defender. Olynyk is a great shooter, a great passer with court vision, an above-average ball-handler for his position, a decent rebounder, an OK post player and a bad defender. Sully probably has room to grow as a face-up threat from the elbow and Olynyk can improve his post game but all in all, it looks like their individual skills have peaked.

However the intrigue surrounding Olynyk is his potential to put all of this together. Can he shoot  50/35+/85, grab 5 or so assists and 8 or so rebounds all on the same night? If so, he's a potent offensive player. But the same can be said for Sully. There is no reason to suggest that Sully doesn't have the potential to put up 18-20 points/game, grab 10 rebounds and dish 3-4 assists on 50/32/80 shooting while playing respectable defense. Again, as with Olynyk, the potential IMO comes from his ability to put it all together, not necessarily any major improvement to individual aspects of his game. So if Olynyk has potential at 23 with relatively peaked skills, why doesn't Sully?

Contrary to popular belief, Sullinger is a full year YOUNGER than Olynyk.

[Rondo9]

Yeah I think Sullinger is becoming underrated in this forum.

[Who]

Sully = for reasons already given by BudweiserCeltic and Nickagneta

[BudweiserCeltic]

Sully = for reasons already given by BudweiserCeltic and Nickagneta

Honestly, if Sully doesn't perform as one of the top PFs in the league this year I'll be incredibly disappointed. I have Sully's ability to be a two way player + doing the intangibles in a really high regard.

[TheFlex]

Kelly.  I still think there is more growth to be had for his game.

I think what we're seeing from Sully now is close to what his ceiling is. 

That being said, I'd have no problem moving either of them in a package deal.

This claim is pretty baseless. Sully has become really, really underrated on this forum.

Sully is around the same age Olynyk is, if I'm correct. I don't think we expect either of them to greatly improve their individual skills. Sully is already a great post player, a great rebounder, a good shooter, an adept passer with court vision, a solid face-up threat from the elbow and a solid defender. Olynyk is a great shooter, a great passer with court vision, an above-average ball-handler for his position, a decent rebounder, an OK post player and a bad defender. Sully probably has room to grow as a face-up threat from the elbow and Olynyk can improve his post game but all in all, it looks like their individual skills have peaked.

However the intrigue surrounding Olynyk is his potential to put all of this together. Can he shoot  50/35+/85, grab 5 or so assists and 8 or so rebounds all on the same night? If so, he's a potent offensive player. But the same can be said for Sully. There is no reason to suggest that Sully doesn't have the potential to put up 18-20 points/game, grab 10 rebounds and dish 3-4 assists on 50/32/80 shooting while playing respectable defense. Again, as with Olynyk, the potential IMO comes from his ability to put it all together, not necessarily any major improvement to individual aspects of his game. So if Olynyk has potential at 23 with relatively peaked skills, why doesn't Sully?

So subjective = baseless now?  That's a new one.  Jeez....   So I guess that makes your argument just as baseless too, right?  There's actually no reason to suggest that he does have the potential either to put up your numbers, either.   Outside the eyeball test, which, again, is completely subjective.

I think his game will make incremental improvements but I don't think its going to grow leaps & bounds from what I've seen on the court.

I don't think my claim is baseless. We've seen Sully have 20/20 games, seen him have multiple-assist games, seen him defend the best power forwards... etc. My point is just that your perspective of Olynyk's potential lies in your faith that he'll put all of his near-maxed individual skills together night after night. He already shoots great percentages and has great passing statistics, so there's not much room for improvements to individual aspects of his game. So if you believe this, why doesn't it apply to Sullinger? He has great individual skills too (low post, rebounding) and a lot of very good ones too (three-point shooting, face-up threat, court vision)... if he puts all of them together night after night, why doesn't he have a lot of potential as well?

My problem with your post was that you said something pretty controversial and didn't provide any line of reasoning, never mind stats.