I already like Marcus Smart better than Rondo as our starting PG

[Boris Badenov]

Maybe we can trade Rondo for Jabari Parker - Parker's only averaging 13ppg on 39/17/67 shooting in his first two preseason games, so the Bucks have probably written him off as their SF of the future.

[D.o.s.]

Shaq and Wilcox weren't really "post up bigs" when they were on the Celtics though. Going back a little futher, Sheed was/is probably the best post player that Rondo's every played with, but he didn't spend much time in the post either.

  Shaq was clearly a post up big, although he was more of a "finish the easy pass with a layup/dunk" player on the Celts. Eddie was talking about how hard it would be for those bigs that played inside to score with Rondo on the court but when the situation actually occurs you tend to see historically high fg% from the centers.

Right -- that jives with my memory of Shaq and Wilcox, in particular, is that they were scoring off of screen and rolls with Rondo, as well as cuts, rather than being given the ball in the post and going to work.

Synergy went dark about a week ago, too, but I'll poke around for some numbers on that.

[Eddie20]

Shaq and Wilcox weren't really "post up bigs" when they were on the Celtics though. Going back a little futher, Sheed was/is probably the best post player that Rondo's every played with, but he didn't spend much time in the post either.

  Shaq was clearly a post up big, although he was more of a "finish the easy pass with a layup/dunk" player on the Celts. Eddie was talking about how hard it would be for those bigs that played inside to score with Rondo on the court but when the situation actually occurs you tend to see historically high fg% from the centers.

No, I think he's fine with a big who can finish around the basket. Rondo can penetrate and hit him with lobs or dump offs for easy shots. I'm more concerned with his ability to mesh with a back to the basket type player, where you'd have to hide Rondo on the weakside because you know the double is coming off his man.

[Donoghus]

Shaq and Wilcox weren't really "post up bigs" when they were on the Celtics though. Going back a little futher, Sheed was/is probably the best post player that Rondo's every played with, but he didn't spend much time in the post either.

  Shaq was clearly a post up big, although he was more of a "finish the easy pass with a layup/dunk" player on the Celts. Eddie was talking about how hard it would be for those bigs that played inside to score with Rondo on the court but when the situation actually occurs you tend to see historically high fg% from the centers.

Right -- that jives with my memory of Shaq and Wilcox, in particular, is that they were scoring off of screen and rolls with Rondo, as well as cuts, rather than being given the ball in the post and going to work.

Synergy went dark about a week ago, too, but I'll poke around for some numbers on that.

Sadly, Shaq wasn't much of anything by the time he was playing for the C's.

[D.o.s.]

I don't know about that -- by that point, he was quite the accomplished ring chaser.

[pokeKingCurtis]

Greg Popovich  is about the system 1st.   Not everyone is going to be a failure like pitino if they utilize this kind of system

When we won the championship, that season we played amazing team basketball also if you forgot.

Popovich has changed his offense massively during Duncan's career, anything but static. He molded it to fit Duncan, then Parker's talents as each was at their apex.

I never said anything about not playing team basketball, just that the idea that Stevens system being prioritized over talent is misguided.

I thought it was obvious that Stevens has, in fact, tailored his schemes that way.

With guard and wing depth, guys with intensity like Smaht and AB, guys who like to run the floor (Rondo, Turner, Green, Smaht, AB...etc etc.), mobile bigs, we're blitzing teams on defense and pushing the pace whenever possible.

I'd imagine Stevens would sag more on pick and rolls if we had Greg Monroe or Big Al.

Maybe I'm just seeing things.

[pokeKingCurtis]

Smart is the PG of the future and it's pretty evident that Ainge and Stevens feel the same way.  If they wanted to keep Rondo around for the rebuild wouldn't they have gone in a different direction on draft night??  If they wanted Rondo around I would think Ainge would have grabbed Randle, Staukas or Vonleh???  They all would have filled a need on this team..

Instead they took a PG who they believe will be a better fit for this team going forward??? 

Again Rondo is a good player but he is no where near a max player ( which he wants to get paid ) so he will get dealt or let walk at the end of the season...

To me Rondo's tenure ended here once Steven's signed on to be the coach....

First, none of those would've filled a need for this team.

Second of all, I was a big fan of drafting Smart as I'm a big fan of keeping Rondo, so no, your reasoning for how "evident" this all is is quite flawed.

Yea you are right they didn't need a shooting guard or a rim protector....

A SG, not really a need, and none of those are rim protectors.

Yes - the C's have plenty of shooting on the roster and I guess a 19 year old with an 88 inch wing span at 6'10 doesn't have the potential of a rim protector...

I am in the camp of drafting Smart, I think he is going to be great.  Just using these guys as examples to show that they could have went other directions if they thought Rondo was staying or if they even want him to stay...

A physically talented guy with a "guard complex" (wants to play in the perimeter).

Vonleh has said he wants to play SF.

Not that I'm writing off Vonleh based on that one comment. But it's a frightening thought, wasted talent is.

Whereas Marcus Smahhhht will likely squeeze every ounce of talent out of himself.

[BballTim]

Shaq and Wilcox weren't really "post up bigs" when they were on the Celtics though. Going back a little futher, Sheed was/is probably the best post player that Rondo's every played with, but he didn't spend much time in the post either.

  Shaq was clearly a post up big, although he was more of a "finish the easy pass with a layup/dunk" player on the Celts. Eddie was talking about how hard it would be for those bigs that played inside to score with Rondo on the court but when the situation actually occurs you tend to see historically high fg% from the centers.

No, I think he's fine with a big who can finish around the basket. Rondo can penetrate and hit him with lobs or dump offs for easy shots. I'm more concerned with his ability to mesh with a back to the basket type player, where you'd have to hide Rondo on the weakside because you know the double is coming off his man.

  I think you'd be hard pressed to start naming good low post players who can't finish around the basket and score well off of lobs and easy shots from dump off passes. In other words, as you seem to have figured out, he'd be fine with them.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Smart is the PG of the future and it's pretty evident that Ainge and Stevens feel the same way.  If they wanted to keep Rondo around for the rebuild wouldn't they have gone in a different direction on draft night??  If they wanted Rondo around I would think Ainge would have grabbed Randle, Staukas or Vonleh???  They all would have filled a need on this team..

Instead they took a PG who they believe will be a better fit for this team going forward??? 

Again Rondo is a good player but he is no where near a max player ( which he wants to get paid ) so he will get dealt or let walk at the end of the season...

To me Rondo's tenure ended here once Steven's signed on to be the coach....

First, none of those would've filled a need for this team.

Second of all, I was a big fan of drafting Smart as I'm a big fan of keeping Rondo, so no, your reasoning for how "evident" this all is is quite flawed.

Yea you are right they didn't need a shooting guard or a rim protector....

A SG, not really a need, and none of those are rim protectors.

Yes - the C's have plenty of shooting on the roster and I guess a 19 year old with an 88 inch wing span at 6'10 doesn't have the potential of a rim protector...

I am in the camp of drafting Smart, I think he is going to be great.  Just using these guys as examples to show that they could have went other directions if they thought Rondo was staying or if they even want him to stay...

Having the physical make-up doesn't mean he's a rim protector. Potential? Sure, everyone is brimming with potential...

But for all his physical tools, Vonleh has displayed severe lack of basketball IQ, including defensively, very poor defensive awareness... a far cry from this rim protector you're looking for. And his stock was dropping fast from everyone that worked him out.

So potential or not, this apparent need for a rim protector was not going to be filled by Vonleh, so putting Ainge's decision on that context is a bit irrelevant.

[fitzhickey]

as pokeKingCurtis said, Vonleh seemingly wants to be a perimeter player, so I'm not sure he is the ring protecting big we want.

[Eddie20]

Shaq and Wilcox weren't really "post up bigs" when they were on the Celtics though. Going back a little futher, Sheed was/is probably the best post player that Rondo's every played with, but he didn't spend much time in the post either.

  Shaq was clearly a post up big, although he was more of a "finish the easy pass with a layup/dunk" player on the Celts. Eddie was talking about how hard it would be for those bigs that played inside to score with Rondo on the court but when the situation actually occurs you tend to see historically high fg% from the centers.

No, I think he's fine with a big who can finish around the basket. Rondo can penetrate and hit him with lobs or dump offs for easy shots. I'm more concerned with his ability to mesh with a back to the basket type player, where you'd have to hide Rondo on the weakside because you know the double is coming off his man.

  I think you'd be hard pressed to start naming good low post players who can't finish around the basket and score well off of lobs and easy shots from dump off passes. In other words, as you seem to have figured out, he'd be fine with them.

There are many players (Big Al, Cousins, the Gasol's, etc.) that are very comfortable with their back to the basket and having the offense run through them either by scoring themselves or drawing a double. Judging by your comments, it seemed like you agree that Rondo would have difficulty meshing with these player types and you'd be willing to take away that aspect of their games and reduce them to simply playing off of Rondo. Since it's no secret that Rondo off the ball and playing off of players leaves a lot to be desired.

That's why I continue to harp that in order to build around Rondo you need players with very particular skillsets. Bigs who can finish off of lobs and have at least decent perimeter/catch and shoot games and wings who can move well without the ball, have good range, and are very adept at catching and shooting.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Shaq and Wilcox weren't really "post up bigs" when they were on the Celtics though. Going back a little futher, Sheed was/is probably the best post player that Rondo's every played with, but he didn't spend much time in the post either.

  Shaq was clearly a post up big, although he was more of a "finish the easy pass with a layup/dunk" player on the Celts. Eddie was talking about how hard it would be for those bigs that played inside to score with Rondo on the court but when the situation actually occurs you tend to see historically high fg% from the centers.

No, I think he's fine with a big who can finish around the basket. Rondo can penetrate and hit him with lobs or dump offs for easy shots. I'm more concerned with his ability to mesh with a back to the basket type player, where you'd have to hide Rondo on the weakside because you know the double is coming off his man.

  I think you'd be hard pressed to start naming good low post players who can't finish around the basket and score well off of lobs and easy shots from dump off passes. In other words, as you seem to have figured out, he'd be fine with them.

There are many players (Big Al, Cousins, the Gasol's, etc.) that are very comfortable with their back to the basket and having the offense run through them either by scoring themselves or drawing a double. Judging by your comments, it seemed like you agree that Rondo would have difficulty meshing with these player types and you'd be willing to take away that aspect of their games and reduce them to simply playing off of Rondo. Since it's no secret that Rondo off the ball and playing off of players leaves a lot to be desired.

That's why I continue to harp that in order to build around Rondo you need players with very particular skillsets. Bigs who can finish off of lobs and have at least decent perimeter/catch and shoot games and wings who can move well without the ball, have good range, and are very adept at catching and shooting.

That's not what he's saying at all. He's merely playing along with and indulging your hypothesis, addressing it specifically to show that it's a non-issue if it were true, which it isn't.

In your hypothetical that Rondo would have problems with back to the basket type of bigs, all BballTim is saying it's a none-issue since they're also good at other things that Rondo complements well. And that the types of bigs that have had historically high FG% with Rondo did things that these back to the basket types of bigs also do well, or even better. So none issue.

But the fact is, that your hypothesis is inaccurate. Rondo has played with Kevin Garnett and never had a problem with dumping the ball to him in the post when Garnett was in position and asking for it. He never had a problem doing it with Leon Powe, heck he fed Kendrick Perkins regularly.

So, this hypothesis of yours is only true at the moment in the fantasy of your mind.

[BballTim]

Shaq and Wilcox weren't really "post up bigs" when they were on the Celtics though. Going back a little futher, Sheed was/is probably the best post player that Rondo's every played with, but he didn't spend much time in the post either.

  Shaq was clearly a post up big, although he was more of a "finish the easy pass with a layup/dunk" player on the Celts. Eddie was talking about how hard it would be for those bigs that played inside to score with Rondo on the court but when the situation actually occurs you tend to see historically high fg% from the centers.

No, I think he's fine with a big who can finish around the basket. Rondo can penetrate and hit him with lobs or dump offs for easy shots. I'm more concerned with his ability to mesh with a back to the basket type player, where you'd have to hide Rondo on the weakside because you know the double is coming off his man.

  I think you'd be hard pressed to start naming good low post players who can't finish around the basket and score well off of lobs and easy shots from dump off passes. In other words, as you seem to have figured out, he'd be fine with them.

There are many players (Big Al, Cousins, the Gasol's, etc.) that are very comfortable with their back to the basket and having the offense run through them either by scoring themselves or drawing a double. Judging by your comments, it seemed like you agree that Rondo would have difficulty meshing with these player types and you'd be willing to take away that aspect of their games and reduce them to simply playing off of Rondo. Since it's no secret that Rondo off the ball and playing off of players leaves a lot to be desired.

  In terms of players being comfortable with their back to the basket, I'll again state that they're more comfortable taking easier shots. Similar to Paul Pierce, who was always very comfortable in isos and even scoring when doubled. That doesn't mean he can't score (and score more efficiently) off of the better, more open looks he got with Rondo controlling the offense.

  Also, you're wildly exaggerating the effect on the game of Rondo's lack of outside shooting. He's not great at it, but he's not exactly abysmal. You mention the Gasols as back to the basket players. Marc's spent a lot of time on the court with guards that are very bad (TA) and average(ish) (Conley) and some fairly mediocre shooting small forwards. How can you claim that a post player who can operate with Tony Allen on the court would somehow be unable to score because he's playing with Rondo? It's nonsense. Which is why bigs who play near the basket and don't have good outside shots have generally thrived when playing with Rondo.

[celtics2030]

Shaq and Wilcox weren't really "post up bigs" when they were on the Celtics though. Going back a little futher, Sheed was/is probably the best post player that Rondo's every played with, but he didn't spend much time in the post either.

  Shaq was clearly a post up big, although he was more of a "finish the easy pass with a layup/dunk" player on the Celts. Eddie was talking about how hard it would be for those bigs that played inside to score with Rondo on the court but when the situation actually occurs you tend to see historically high fg% from the centers.

No, I think he's fine with a big who can finish around the basket. Rondo can penetrate and hit him with lobs or dump offs for easy shots. I'm more concerned with his ability to mesh with a back to the basket type player, where you'd have to hide Rondo on the weakside because you know the double is coming off his man.

  I think you'd be hard pressed to start naming good low post players who can't finish around the basket and score well off of lobs and easy shots from dump off passes. In other words, as you seem to have figured out, he'd be fine with them.

There are many players (Big Al, Cousins, the Gasol's, etc.) that are very comfortable with their back to the basket and having the offense run through them either by scoring themselves or drawing a double. Judging by your comments, it seemed like you agree that Rondo would have difficulty meshing with these player types and you'd be willing to take away that aspect of their games and reduce them to simply playing off of Rondo. Since it's no secret that Rondo off the ball and playing off of players leaves a lot to be desired.

  In terms of players being comfortable with their back to the basket, I'll again state that they're more comfortable taking easier shots. Similar to Paul Pierce, who was always very comfortable in isos and even scoring when doubled. That doesn't mean he can't score (and score more efficiently) off of the better, more open looks he got with Rondo controlling the offense.

  Also, you're wildly exaggerating the effect on the game of Rondo's lack of outside shooting. He's not great at it, but he's not exactly abysmal. You mention the Gasols as back to the basket players. Marc's spent a lot of time on the court with guards that are very bad (TA) and average(ish) (Conley) and some fairly mediocre shooting small forwards. How can you claim that a post player who can operate with Tony Allen on the court would somehow be unable to score because he's playing with Rondo? It's nonsense. Which is why bigs who play near the basket and don't have good outside shots have generally thrived when playing with Rondo.

Conley is not what you describe. He is not average(ish). Hes a really good point guard.

[BballTim]

Shaq and Wilcox weren't really "post up bigs" when they were on the Celtics though. Going back a little futher, Sheed was/is probably the best post player that Rondo's every played with, but he didn't spend much time in the post either.

  Shaq was clearly a post up big, although he was more of a "finish the easy pass with a layup/dunk" player on the Celts. Eddie was talking about how hard it would be for those bigs that played inside to score with Rondo on the court but when the situation actually occurs you tend to see historically high fg% from the centers.

No, I think he's fine with a big who can finish around the basket. Rondo can penetrate and hit him with lobs or dump offs for easy shots. I'm more concerned with his ability to mesh with a back to the basket type player, where you'd have to hide Rondo on the weakside because you know the double is coming off his man.

  I think you'd be hard pressed to start naming good low post players who can't finish around the basket and score well off of lobs and easy shots from dump off passes. In other words, as you seem to have figured out, he'd be fine with them.

There are many players (Big Al, Cousins, the Gasol's, etc.) that are very comfortable with their back to the basket and having the offense run through them either by scoring themselves or drawing a double. Judging by your comments, it seemed like you agree that Rondo would have difficulty meshing with these player types and you'd be willing to take away that aspect of their games and reduce them to simply playing off of Rondo. Since it's no secret that Rondo off the ball and playing off of players leaves a lot to be desired.

  In terms of players being comfortable with their back to the basket, I'll again state that they're more comfortable taking easier shots. Similar to Paul Pierce, who was always very comfortable in isos and even scoring when doubled. That doesn't mean he can't score (and score more efficiently) off of the better, more open looks he got with Rondo controlling the offense.

  Also, you're wildly exaggerating the effect on the game of Rondo's lack of outside shooting. He's not great at it, but he's not exactly abysmal. You mention the Gasols as back to the basket players. Marc's spent a lot of time on the court with guards that are very bad (TA) and average(ish) (Conley) and some fairly mediocre shooting small forwards. How can you claim that a post player who can operate with Tony Allen on the court would somehow be unable to score because he's playing with Rondo? It's nonsense. Which is why bigs who play near the basket and don't have good outside shots have generally thrived when playing with Rondo.

Conley is not what you describe. He is not average(ish). Hes a really good point guard.

  He's a good point guard, but the discussion was about shooting. He's okay, not really a deadly outside shooter though.