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I don't think Cleveland is a lock to be unbeatable in the east
« on: August 07, 2014, 06:39:19 PM »

Offline rqk

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1. Although Lebron is dominant Love is not.  Love is not a defender.
2. Kyrie has had a lot of injuries and needs to stay healthy
3. They don't have a rim protector.

Obviously they are still one of the teams to beat in the east but if the Celtics can get a real good center in next years draft and consolidate some of their duplication they currently have they can be competive in 2015-2016.

I think Chicago may end up the better team as Cleveland will have trouble matching up with Pau, Milotic, and Noah assuming that Rose does come back strong.
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Re: I don't think Cleveland is a lock to be unbeatable in the east
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2014, 06:42:01 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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Just a note on Irving hasn't a lot of his injury time been in the interest of tanking?  JS
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Re: I don't think Cleveland is a lock to be unbeatable in the east
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2014, 06:48:25 PM »

Offline Kevin OConnor

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1. Although Lebron is dominant Love is not.  Love is not a defender.
Love is a dominant scorer and rebounder. You can't have it all.
Quote
2. Kyrie has had a lot of injuries and needs to stay healthy
As Csfan1994 said, that was in the interest of tanking more often than not.
Quote
3. They don't have a rim protector.
Varejao is a better rim protector than many starting centers. He's not great, but not garbage.
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Re: I don't think Cleveland is a lock to be unbeatable in the east
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2014, 06:59:43 PM »

Offline Snakehead

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With Love, I see him as clearly one of the top 5 players in the league.  And I care about defense.  I think he can be at least average and that's fine.  Like Kevin says, he's so good elsewhere that its kind of obsessing over a weakness and ignoring everything else positive.

I think you could have easily said everything about Love's defense you would have said about Pierce before KG, for example.  He stepped his game up.  I think Love can as well.

In the end, Cleveland will have a lot of the weaknesses Miami had (mainly lack of depth inside, shotblocking, legit size).  They will have LeBron and Love (two top 5 players) and Kyrie a step down (in the Bosh role).  All the pieces fit better on offense than Miami did for sure.  I could see this team being a juggernaut on offense. 

The defense from the stars will not be on the level of Miami (Kyrie is no Wade) but if they fill out the team well they should be fine.  Varejao and Marion are great pieces around those players to do that.

All this being said, I do like Chicago but so much depends on Rose.  Either way they will be very good though I think with Noah and Gasol.  That will be a dominant combo.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 07:06:00 PM by Snakehead »
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Re: I don't think Cleveland is a lock to be unbeatable in the east
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2014, 07:10:59 PM »

fitzhickey

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Quote from: Snakehead on August 07, 2014, 06:59:43 PM
With Love, I see him as clearly one of the top 5 players in the league.  And I care about defense.  I think he can be at least average and that's fine.  Like Kevin says, he's so good elsewhere that its kind of obsessing over a weakness and ignoring everything else positive.

I think you could have easily said everything about Love's defense you would have said about Pierce before KG, for example.  He stepped his game up.  I think Love can as well.

In the end, Cleveland will have a lot of the weaknesses Miami had (mainly lack of depth inside, shotblocking, legit size).  They will have LeBron and Love (two top 5 players) and Kyrie a step down (in the Bosh role).  All the pieces fit better on offense than Miami did for sure.  I could see this team being a juggernaut on offense. 

The defense from the stars will not be on the level of Miami (Kyrie is no Wade) but if they fill out the team well they should be fine.  Varejao and Marion are great pieces around those players to do that.

All this being said, I do like Chicago but so much depends on Rose.  Either way they will be very good though I think with Noah and Gasol.  That will be a dominant combo.
I agree with most of what you said, except Love is no top 5 player.
LBJ, Durant, Carmelo, Paul George and CP3 are all better than him. I would rather have someone like Blake Griffin or LaMarcus Aldridge than Kevin Love
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Re: I don't think Cleveland is a lock to be unbeatable in the east
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2014, 07:17:27 PM »

Offline rqk

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Love is very good but he is not top 5.
Pierce was a very good defender before KG.  He was always much more athletic and stronger than we was give credit for.  He could compete defensively against the best 3's in the league.  He was always a great traffic rebounder especially for a 3.

So I agree with what you say about weaknesses(size) and strengths(offense) of Cleveland.  Although Bosh and Wade were better defenders than Love, Kyrie.  And it will be interesting to see how Lebron and Irving share the ball since they both like the ball in their hands.  Can Irving make the sacrifice since Lebron should be the dominant player
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Re: I don't think Cleveland is a lock to be unbeatable in the east
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2014, 07:27:42 PM »

Offline get_banners

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Will Irving, a shoot-first player, be as good w/ Love and Lebron? I think not in that the best thing he does is score. If he plays like he usually plays, that means a lot fewer touches for Love and Lebron. He can obv develop his game more and learn to be a factor w/o controlling the ball, but as of now, that's not who he is.
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Re: I don't think Cleveland is a lock to be unbeatable in the east
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2014, 07:28:55 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Quote from: rqk on August 07, 2014, 06:39:19 PM
1. Although Lebron is dominant Love is not.  Love is not a defender.
2. Kyrie has had a lot of injuries and needs to stay healthy
3. They don't have a rim protector.

Obviously they are still one of the teams to beat in the east but if the Celtics can get a real good center in next years draft and consolidate some of their duplication they currently have they can be competive in 2015-2016.

I think Chicago may end up the better team as Cleveland will have trouble matching up with Pau, Milotic, and Noah assuming that Rose does come back strong.

I agree that they're not necessarily unbeatable, and that Chicago is a legit challenger.  At the same time, I think you undersell Kyrie and Love a bit.  I think the Cavs have a legit "big three", plus some other decent pieces.

I think that chemistry and experience will play a role for them this year, and I wouldn't be surprised to see them get tripped up.  In Year 2 and going forward, though, they're going to be beasts.
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Re: I don't think Cleveland is a lock to be unbeatable in the east
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2014, 07:31:13 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Quote from: get_banners on August 07, 2014, 07:27:42 PM
Will Irving, a shoot-first player, be as good w/ Love and Lebron? I think not in that the best thing he does is score. If he plays like he usually plays, that means a lot fewer touches for Love and Lebron. He can obv develop his game more and learn to be a factor w/o controlling the ball, but as of now, that's not who he is.

I don't think Kyrie has an issue sharing the ball.  In fact, a lot of insiders have said that he'd like to score less, but the Cavs' roster wouldn't let him be more of a distributor.  Still, he shared the ball with Waiters when they were on the court together, and I think he'll gladly give up the ball to his teammates.
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Re: I don't think Cleveland is a lock to be unbeatable in the east
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2014, 07:42:13 PM »

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I think Chicago is the only team in the East capable of beating Cleveland if the Cavs are healthy.

Health is the main issue in front of Cleveland. Especially Varejao.
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Re: I don't think Cleveland is a lock to be unbeatable in the east
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2014, 07:46:23 PM »

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Quote from: rqk on August 07, 2014, 06:39:19 PM
I think Chicago may end up the better team as Cleveland will have trouble matching up with Pau, Milotic, and Noah assuming that Rose does come back strong.

I think Kevin Love will do very well against Pau Gasol. If there is one thing that Kevin Love is very good at defensively, it's his low post defense. Love is strong as rock. Very difficult to move inside. Pau will not be able to back Love down. Love will force him into a lot of tough contested shots out of the post. Love is just as quick as Pau so Pau will struggle to take him off the dribble too. Love will be able to contain Pau Gasol.

And if there is one weakness greater than all others defensively for Pau Gasol, it's his perimeter defense and ability to contain big men who can spread the floor which is Kevin Love's biggest strength offensively. Pau Gasol will have a nightmare on his hands trying to stop K-Love's three point shooting off of the dribble penetration of Kyrie Irving and LeBron James. Just like Pau used to have with Dirk Nowitzki in those playoff series against the Mavs.

This is a matchup that is very much in Kevin Love's favour.
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Re: I don't think Cleveland is a lock to be unbeatable in the east
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2014, 07:52:39 PM »

fitzhickey

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Rose >> Irving (if he returns as anticipated)
Jimmy Butler = Dion Waiters
Mike Dunleavy <<<< Lebron James
Pau Gasol < Kevin Love
Joakhim Noah >>> Andy V

I see it as a very tight contest.
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Re: I don't think Cleveland is a lock to be unbeatable in the east
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2014, 08:19:24 PM »

Offline TwinTower14

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I think it's funny that people are actually down playing this? James, Love and Irving are a legit big three super power who all of them are in the primes of their careers.   Only way they don't win the east is because of injuries, that's it. 

Not to mention they have nice pieces like Thompson,  Waiters, Anderson V and Miller.   You are looking at a team that will win at least 60 games and be in the finals.
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Re: I don't think Cleveland is a lock to be unbeatable in the east
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2014, 08:27:03 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Quote from: fitzhickey on August 07, 2014, 07:52:39 PM
Rose >> Irving (if he returns as anticipated)

Joakhim Noah >>> Andy V

I don't necessarily agree with these.  I see Irving and Rose as very close.  Rose may or may not have a slight edge, but I don't think it's worth ">>"

Same thing with Noah vs. Varejao.  I think Noah is a bit overrated to begin with, and Varejao is fairly equal to Noah in terms of scoring, passing, and rebounding (Varejao could have the edge here).  Noah's defense is better, but I think if you put AV into Thibodeau's system, he'd be pretty effective.  So, Noah is better, but not by a huge margin (i.e., ">>>")
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Re: I don't think Cleveland is a lock to be unbeatable in the east
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2014, 08:30:41 PM »

Offline JBcat

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I think they need to find 1 more interior defender, and the player doesn't have to play a big role.  They should take a look at Omeka Okofor.  Could be low cost really nice find for them.

I also think Waiters could be an X factor from really turning the offense into a big time juggernaut.
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