How Are Top Teams Built? (Survey - Part 1)

[PhoSita]

Asik is basically a seven foot version of pre-injury Perk (sans the epic scowl).

I think this comparison minimizes Asik because it doesn't illustrate the gap in their rebounding ability.  Deandre Jordan had to make a massive improvement this season to bring his rebounding numbers up to the level of Asik, who should be talked about as being on the same tier as Dwight Howard and Kevin Love, with respect to rebounding.

That's fair, though a seven foot Perk may have been a significantly better rebounder.  But yes, Asik is a top-tier rebounder.  The comparison was meant to be more about the role they play on both ends.

[indeedproceed]

Asik is basically a seven foot version of pre-injury Perk (sans the epic scowl).

I think this comparison minimizes Asik because it doesn't illustrate the gap in their rebounding ability.  Deandre Jordan had to make a massive improvement this season to bring his rebounding numbers up to the level of Asik, who should be talked about as being on the same tier as Dwight Howard and Kevin Love, with respect to rebounding.

That's fair, though a seven foot Perk may have been a significantly better rebounder.  But yes, Asik is a top-tier rebounder.  The comparison was meant to be more about the role they play on both ends.

Asik is (well was, when he was starting/in Chicago) a better defensive anchor and rebounder than Perkins. See here:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=asikom01&y1=2013&p2=perkike01&y2=2010

This is a bit off, because it has a low sample size (only 1 yr of starters minutes for a Asik) but ASIK'S TREB% is considerably better, and his role , especially as a starter, was considerably different than Perkins. Perkins was never the help defender Asik is, Asik is a legitimate anchor, Perk was an elite man defender in the post, but never the rim protector/help defender Asik is.

[PhoSita]

Asik is basically a seven foot version of pre-injury Perk (sans the epic scowl).

I think this comparison minimizes Asik because it doesn't illustrate the gap in their rebounding ability.  Deandre Jordan had to make a massive improvement this season to bring his rebounding numbers up to the level of Asik, who should be talked about as being on the same tier as Dwight Howard and Kevin Love, with respect to rebounding.

That's fair, though a seven foot Perk may have been a significantly better rebounder.  But yes, Asik is a top-tier rebounder.  The comparison was meant to be more about the role they play on both ends.

Asik is (well was, when he was starting/in Chicago) a better defensive anchor and rebounder than Perkins. See here:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=asikom01&y1=2013&p2=perkike01&y2=2010

This is a bit off, because it has a low sample size (only 1 yr of starters minutes for a Asik) but ASIK'S TREB% is considerably better, and his role , especially as a starter, was considerably different than Perkins. Perkins was never the help defender Asik is, Asik is a legitimate anchor, Perk was an elite man defender in the post, but never the rim protector/help defender Asik is.

Right, Asik is better.  Obviously the comparison to Perk wears thin quickly. 

I just meant that he doesn't do much but set hard picks and grab, gather, and dunk offensively, and his role on defense is to stay near the basket and protect the rim.  He's a better defender because he's more mobile, and he can blow up pick and rolls.  He's also a better rebounder.  Some of those advantages are because he's a bigger guy.

Asik can and will become a very useful starting center for a team that doesn't need their 5 man to do much more than play great defense, rebound, and finish easy looks inside, though he'll probably always be a hindrance more than a help on the offensive end.

[indeedproceed]

Watching Asik when he's engaged is pretty hilarious. On defense it's so obvious he's a difference maker. But on offense he's so comically unable to do much beyond the most simple tasks. Well, and rebound. But catching the ball, he has about a 50% chance of looking like the clumsy 'before' guy in an infomercial.

Has this happened to you? (Cut to Asik setting a perfect pick and rolling to the basket, then bumbling an easy pass into a turnover)

[PhoSita]

Watching Asik when he's engaged is pretty hilarious. On defense it's so obvious he's a difference maker. But on offense he's so comically unable to do much beyond the most simple tasks. Well, and rebound. But catching the ball, he has about a 50% chance of looking like the clumsy 'before' guy in an infomercial.

Has this happened to you? (Cut to Asik setting a perfect pick and rolling to the basket, then bumbling an easy pass into a turnover)

Yeah, I think it's that sort of thing that makes me want to bring up the Perk comparison.

I loved Perk when he was here, but he was equally apt to make me wince as make me smile when he had the ball on offense.

Asik will always get playing time for his defense, but I doubt his team will ever be better offensively with him on the floor versus a competent offensive-minded backup (i.e. the Jordan Hills and Ronnie Turiafs of the world).

[indeedproceed]

Asik will always get playing time for his defense, but I doubt his team will ever be better offensively with him on the floor versus a competent offensive-minded backup (i.e. the Jordan Hills and Ronnie Turiafs of the world).

I think this might neglect some of the 'outside the box' (in euphemism only..everything Asik does happens inside the box) contributions Asik makes to offense. More missed shots=more potential rebounds=more fast breaks. More offensive rebounds=more second chances. While in terms of points scored by Asik personally, he'll never be an elite player, and will struggle to be average, his other contributions should help the offense, not hinder it.

[guava_wrench]

Those seem like distinctions without a real difference, though.   tstory_97 already cited the Spurs as 'getting it right' (per Red dictums) with Duncan and the idea that they would look to find value in places no one else is looking (international players) is consistent with Red's strategies.

Tactics need to be different today for all the reasons you cite and more.

But that doesn't invalidate Red's larger strategic approach, which is really the moneyball approach of finding assets that are undervalued or whose value is not visible to everyone else.

Danny has clearly looked to find value where no one else is looking.  It hasn't alway worked (Fab Melo).  But often it has (Rondo, Sully).   Pressey seems to be a small such victory.  Jury is still out on Faverani, Iverson.

The Spurs deserve ZERO credit for drafting Duncan. That pick was obvious and required no judgement whatsoever.

What they deserve credit for are Parker and Ginobili.

Unfortunately, it isn't clear that 'moneyball' leads to championships. It is great to seek out undervalued assets, but it is even better to get Lebron, Duncan or Shaq on your team. With only 15 roster spots, only 5 guys on the court at a time, and no minor leagues, the moneyball talk in basketball feels like just talk.

[guava_wrench]

Red deserves credit for being interested in basketball when many teams weren't. The ultimate example is getting the team with the first pick in the draft to pass on Russell by offering them a week of the Ice Capades. http://wagesofwins.com/2010/06/15/trading-the-ice-capades-for-bill-russell/

Russell also claims to have never seen Russell play a game before drafting him. There was a lot of guessing and hoping back then.

[PhoSita]

Asik will always get playing time for his defense, but I doubt his team will ever be better offensively with him on the floor versus a competent offensive-minded backup (i.e. the Jordan Hills and Ronnie Turiafs of the world).

I think this might neglect some of the 'outside the box' (in euphemism only..everything Asik does happens inside the box) contributions Asik makes to offense. More missed shots=more potential rebounds=more fast breaks. More offensive rebounds=more second chances. While in terms of points scored by Asik personally, he'll never be an elite player, and will struggle to be average, his other contributions should help the offense, not hinder it.

All of that is true, in theory, but IIRC through his career so far, Asik has tended to be a net negative for his team's scoring (i.e. they score more per100 possessions when he's sitting).  That makes sense when he's backing up Joakim Noah, but I think it was true last year when he was starting and his main backup was Greg Smith.