It doesn’t matter who plays…..

[Alleyoopster]

I’m sitting here thinking which Celtic player has made the most difference to the outcome of games this year. And, it occurred to me that all the Celtic players have about equal value when it comes to contributing to the final outcome of games.  Note: In writing this post I may be using a bit of hyperbole or maybe this isn’t so far-fetched.
 
All season long, it seems the outcome was about the same no matter who played.  When Rondo was out the team came close to winning - they played competitively and occasionally won. The only exceptions might be the games out west and an occasional clunker where they got clobbered.

Overall, if someone was out due to injury or got traded the same results were almost identical.  It’s almost like Stevens could have grabbed any player from any team in the league and stuck them in the lineup and they would have won a few games, stayed competitive and ended up losing most of them by a small margin. 

Yes, at times some players played better than others.  But, in the final analysis, if that player was out the team didn’t seem to miss him.  The only major players that have not been out, that I can recall, is Bass and Green.  However, one could make a case (by their level of play)that neither one showed up for a number of games…especially Green.
 
So, essentially everyone missed their turn in the lineup in one way or another.  What does this all mean?  I’m not sure.  Maybe it means everyone elevates their game to the level of the player they replace.  Or, the team is solidly mediocre?  In any case I’m not an expert.  Just seems a bit odd to me that the results are about the same no matter who plays or who is out.   

[pokeKingCurtis]

That's the thing with this roster.

A bunch of role players.

Bass is probably as good as Hump or Olynyk, though with different strengths and weaknesses (Bass plays good individual defense while Olynyk brings the offense and Hump brings rebounding and hustle). Green (unfortunately) probably contributes as much as Avery overall. Pressey and CJ and even Babb could probably contribute as much as Wallace.

Rotation player #10 is not that much of a dropoff from rotation player #4.

It's all about fit then. It's very nice that Brad seems to have a good grasp of putting the right pieces on the floor despite the players being limited in their abilities.

Not having to play Wallace might actually help, however. Stevens seems obliged to give Wallace minutes and Wallace seems to have a "Jermaine O'Neal" effect on this team, in that he makes the offense way worse.

As for Rondo, the past few games he's been playing even better. The past few weeks of "indifference" I'd chalk up to adjustment issues (this is a completely new roster and Rondo's jumping in. The very nature of his game requires that he knows the personnel very well) and recovery.


If Sully weren't injured, I think he and Rondo would be the "difference makers" right now.

[PhoSita]

It's a star-driven league.  Sometimes it seems like it doesn't matter who plays next to Durant or Lebron, their teams will still be really, really good. 

The inverse is true for teams like the Celtics.  The only star-caliber player on this roster is playing at 50-75% right now, and even at 100% he has a tendency to only play at a star level some of the time.  The point is, nobody on this roster is an enormous difference-maker on a nightly basis, and the only guy really capable of fundamentally altering a game on his own is recovering from a major knee injury.

I mean, our leading scorer is Jeff Green.  Enough said.

But hey, at least our team isn't a straight-up garbage bonfire like the Sixers.  There are maybe one or two guys on that team who will be a contributor for the Sixers two or three years down the road.  Nothing they do this season really means anything as far as building for the future, other than earning a top 5 pick.

[LilRip]

Nice observation, which leads me to believe that almost our entire roster is replaceable. We have some really solid role players on this team. All it needs is that central 2-3 pieces to build around.

[LatterDayCelticsfan]

Part of me wonders if we could have been a potential 8th seed team this season with a rotation of: a fully recovered Rondo, Bradley, Green, Bass, Sully, starting and Crawford, Lee, Olynyk and Humphries getting most minutes off the bench. Those mid season trades were not just about picks to me

[Boston Garden Leprechaun]

Nice observation, which leads me to believe that almost our entire roster is replaceable. We have some really solid role players on this team. All it needs is that central 2-3 pieces to build around.

yeah as bad as i want to keep rondo and sully they ARE expendable IF we can get a better return.

[pokeKingCurtis]

Nice observation, which leads me to believe that almost our entire roster is replaceable. We have some really solid role players on this team. All it needs is that central 2-3 pieces to build around.

yeah as bad as i want to keep rondo and sully they ARE expendable IF we can get a better return.

Trades are considered if the return is equal or higher.

Novel.

[GreenWarrior]

I definitely think this team is different in a real bad way when rondo and sully don't play.

this season is a complete throw away as far as i'm concerned. i'm not too invested in anyone even stevens for that matter(i'll get to him in a sec.). I just feel between now and a season or 2 this team will look completely different aside from those players whose contracts we might have a hard time moving, but those player aren't or won't be key contributors to this team either way.

as for stevens, I think he's done "just ok". I feel the best way to evaluate a coach is to ask yourself - "has he put his stamp on this team?"

now, in a way you could say stevens has. he has no personality and neither does this team.

but all kidding aside I think a coach needs to get the team to do at least 1 thing really well. something that becomes the team's identity. i don't really see that with this team or him yet. i will say he's gotten the team to play hard every night, i think that has more to do with a lot of prideful vets. but i'll give him credit too.

now i know he has a lot going against him - lack of a star, 1st yr, who's coming? who's going? etc. so i think by saying he's done "just ok" is completely fair.

[More Banners]

I definitely think this team is different in a real bad way when rondo and sully don't play.

this season is a complete throw away as far as i'm concerned. i'm not too invested in anyone even stevens for that matter(i'll get to him in a sec.). I just feel between now and a season or 2 this team will look completely different aside from those players whose contracts we might have a hard time moving, but those player aren't or won't be key contributors to this team either way.

as for stevens, I think he's done "just ok". I feel the best way to evaluate a coach is to ask yourself - "has he put his stamp on this team?"

now, in a way you could say stevens has. he has no personality and neither does this team.

but all kidding aside I think a coach needs to get the team to do at least 1 thing really well. something that becomes the team's identity. i don't really see that with this team or him yet. i will say he's gotten the team to play hard every night, i think that has more to do with a lot of prideful vets. but i'll give him credit too.

now i know he has a lot going against him - lack of a star, 1st yr, who's coming? who's going? etc. so i think by saying he's done "just ok" is completely fair.

I mostly agree, with the caveat that we could just as well had a placeholder head coach during this (hopefully) bridge year.  Not much matters this year, other than the returning health of Rondo and the development of the guys we've drafted over the last few years, including Bradley as well as Sully and KO.  Truthfully, this is the least I've watched the C's in at least a dozen years, preferring to simply "follow" the progress.

I do agree on the "stamp" thing, or what we might more often call team identity.  Our identity is what our roster is: unremarkable.

At least Obie got the team to play really, really good defense, and it brought a mediocre team to the ECF.  He didn't have D-league players starting at any point, though.

It looks like Brad and most of the guys "get" what this season really is about, most are handling it well, and THAT is an outstanding coaching job in itself.

EDIT:  I'm not sure whether this post goes under the Brad Stevens thread or this one?  Whatev...

[DarkAzcura]

I actually read on a different Celtic forum that the Celtics O Rating with Rondo on the floor in February has been good for top 10 in the league,  which is a pretty huge difference to the bottom  of the league offense we have been putting out there before Rondo was back.

I wish I could find on/off stats split by month to confirm this,  but I haven't had much luck.

Good sign either way..
 

[PhoSita]

as for stevens, I think he's done "just ok". I feel the best way to evaluate a coach is to ask yourself - "has he put his stamp on this team?"

I think a coach needs to have some established players underneath him to make a 'stamp,' though.  For most of the season, Stevens hasn't had a leader on the floor to carry his sideline teachings into the actual game.  Gerald Wallace or Green or Bass might have been able to do those things, but I don't think any of them has what it takes to be the vocal leader, the galvanizer.

Maybe Rondo can be that guy, now, if he truly has bought in with Stevens.


In any case, my feeling with Stevens is that he's remaining patient and just trying to feel his way this season, figuring out how things work in the NBA compared to college.  He's still trying to figure out exactly what kind of coach he's going to be.  He's a project nearly as much as players like Sullinger and Olynyk are.

That said, the constant with Stevens has been a dedication to the process and a willingness not to get too worked up about the results of any particular game.  I like that.  I think that will work well for us long term.


I'm going to remain patient with Stevens and not judge him until he's had some time to work with Ainge to build a roster that is talented and equipped to play the way Stevens wants to play.


As I've said in the past -- judging Stevens on the way this team plays is like judging a master chef on what he makes when the only ingredients at his disposal are a couple potatoes, a bunch of unripe bananas, a package of ramen noodles, ketchup, a flat can of Coke, and a pound of dough that hasn't risen yet.  You get the idea.

[GreenWarrior]

sure, every coach would love to have stars. it is what will put a team over the top.

but I think a coach should be able to instill an identity. one thing that opposing teams should look at and say - "we have to prepare for this".

George karl was able to get a mediocre team a couple yrs ago to play some serious fastbreak basketball despite not having stars. he put his stamp on that team.

stevens for the most part has gotten this team to play hard. I will give him some credit for this but not all of it as it seems more like there is a lot of prideful players on this team. I don't consider this an identity instilled by the coach.

but i'm reserving judgement on stevens, much like olynyk (who needs to add some weight) who is a rookie and without the added weight I don't think we're going to get a sense of what he can do till he does. with stevens this team is in severe transition so I think he is doing "just ok" under the circumstances. 

[PhoSita]

sure, every coach would love to have stars. it is what will put a team over the top.

but I think a coach should be able to instill an identity. one thing that opposing teams should look at and say - "we have to prepare for this".

A lot of the time I feel like that's just a gimmick, though.

The Sixers have blitzed the heck out of the NBA this season, especially out of the gates.  They actually won some games as a result.  But are they any good?  Nope.

Karl's teams overachieved in the regular season, but they haven't had much success in the post-season, other than a nice 2009 run -- but his team had a lot of talent that year.


Sometimes coaches will have their young teams play a snail's pace, play the starters a ton of minutes, and focus on defense to the extreme detriment of offense.  Scott Skiles teams in Milwaukee did that, and had some modest success as a result.  Thibs is probably the best example of that strategy, and his teams have won a lot of games, but they haven't made it very far in the post-season.

D'Antoni and Don Nelson are well known for coaching a particular style, but neither of them has had much sustained success outside of the regular season.

I'm not saying the guys I've mentioned aren't good coaches, just that I think the "distinctive identity" thing is overblown.  They succeed when they have a lot of talent, and they don't get far, at least in the playoffs, when they don't.  That's true regardless of who your coach is.


How far your team can go in this league is dependent on the talent level on the roster.  A good coach can help a team reach its potential; a bad coach can hold a team back.  The coach is never the determining factor -- unlike the NFL.

[Boston Garden Leprechaun]

Nice observation, which leads me to believe that almost our entire roster is replaceable. We have some really solid role players on this team. All it needs is that central 2-3 pieces to build around.

yeah as bad as i want to keep rondo and sully they ARE expendable IF we can get a better return.

Trades are considered if the return is equal or higher.

Novel.

You don't trade just for the sake of trading hoping it works like some would vouch for.

[GreenWarrior]

A lot of the time I feel like that's just a gimmick, though.

I actually agree with that. or feel like it is a fine line between being an identity or a gimmick.

How far your team can go in this league is dependent on the talent level on the roster.  A good coach can help a team reach its potential; a bad coach can hold a team back.  The coach is never the determining factor -- unlike the NFL.

absolutely. I just think even a bad team with a good coach should be able to "hang their hat on something" or fall back on regardless of the talent.

again, stevens gets a pass from me this season as the organization is in transition and wins and losses don't matter because there are no championship expectations this yr.