Franchise Players?

[indeedproceed]

I think a lot of what you said is accurate, excepting Kevin Love. Love's a free agent in 2016, everyone (me included) agrees that the illuminati theory of Love and Westbrook reuniting in LA in 2 years as Kobe exits state left is a great theory, but a LOT can change in 2 years.

I'd ask you to consider Kevin Garnett (or Dwyane Wade, Kobe Bryant, and LeBron James). It was widely assumed Garnett would go to LA during the summer of '07, but Boston weaseled in there with a competitive offer and convinced KG to sign an extension.

Honestly, if Boston acquires Love with time to sell him and armed with full bird rights to offer a 5-yr max deal, I think there's a very possible outcome of Love in Boston.

Also disagree that Davis is 'a stretch'. The man-brow is a revelation, that's what he is.

I really like Love and Davis and concede that they certainly are possibilities, but again they are not LIKELY possibilities.

I also agree that KG was similarly thought to be unlikely but that was actually accurate. I know that Danny won out there, but he threaded the needle there. I mean that move came AFTER we lost out on Durant.

Other than Love, Davis, and Carmelo I'm not even sure who is even on the list....

I think Davis is about as likely to be traded as Durant.  It's not happening.

It's unlikely that we'll be able to trade for a superstar in their prime.  That player is most likely going to have to come through the draft.  I suppose there's a possibility of clearing *all* of our contracts and trying to sign two stars to come play next to Rondo, but that's pretty unlikely, too.

Oh agree, Davis is not getting traded. He's the most legitimate cornerstone to come out of the draft in the last 5 years (I guess you could debate Paul George here, but meh).

I was saying I disagreed with calling him a 'stretch' as a franchise player.

[winsomme]

I think a lot of what you said is accurate, excepting Kevin Love. Love's a free agent in 2016, everyone (me included) agrees that the illuminati theory of Love and Westbrook reuniting in LA in 2 years as Kobe exits state left is a great theory, but a LOT can change in 2 years.

I'd ask you to consider Kevin Garnett (or Dwyane Wade, Kobe Bryant, and LeBron James). It was widely assumed Garnett would go to LA during the summer of '07, but Boston weaseled in there with a competitive offer and convinced KG to sign an extension.

Honestly, if Boston acquires Love with time to sell him and armed with full bird rights to offer a 5-yr max deal, I think there's a very possible outcome of Love in Boston.

Also disagree that Davis is 'a stretch'. The man-brow is a revelation, that's what he is.

I really like Love and Davis and concede that they certainly are possibilities, but again they are not LIKELY possibilities.

I also agree that KG was similarly thought to be unlikely but that was actually accurate. I know that Danny won out there, but he threaded the needle there. I mean that move came AFTER we lost out on Durant.

Other than Love, Davis, and Carmelo I'm not even sure who is even on the list....

I think Davis is about as likely to be traded as Durant.  It's not happening.

It's unlikely that we'll be able to trade for a superstar in their prime.  That player is most likely going to have to come through the draft.  I suppose there's a possibility of clearing *all* of our contracts and trying to sign two stars to come play next to Rondo, but that's pretty unlikely, too.

In "Dumb and Dumber" terms, yeah so we're sayin there's a chance....but agreed remote.

Then, what exactly is the plan because A) building through the draft is not quick and B) Rondo coming back could actually largely eliminate that plan.

[obnoxiousmime]

I don't think we are truly recognizing how difficult DAs task is here. He certainly is collecting a ton of picks to either use or package for players to build around, but the real question is who could actually be good enough to build around even if we have the assets to get them?

The two names that have come up fairly frequently are KLove and Aldridge, but these are fleeting possibilities. KLove is roundly considered to be on his way to LA when his contract is up and Aldridge is already on a fun, young, talented team that is building around him and has lots of nice assets. So where do we go from there?

The list of franchise players is short. LeBron, Durant, Howard, George, DRose, StephCurry, DMC, Anthony Davis (the last three are reaches) ...Are any of these guys even remotely on their way to Boston? I would say No.

JWall, Kyrie Irving?? You really want to build around these guys? Plus, they also are not even available.

There are two names left that should be on the list: Carmelo and Rondo. The problem is that Carmelo has HUGE questions about actually having what it takes to be a champion and Rondo, while having that championship mind and will, actually could be the reason  DA loses out on one of his most valuable chips: the Cs 2014 first round pick. So, should he trade Rondo to ensure the pick? I would probably argue No because he might be the only worthwhile player in the league to build around that he might be able to get in that he is already here!!!

This is not an easy rebuild. In fact, I don't even see it at this point, and the Rondo quandary is now HERE. What to do? Can Danny really trade a franchise player to get a high draft pick? That seems insane to me. Yet, KLove at least is a player that could be moving from his current location and a top 5 pick in the 2014 draft would be incredibly enticing for Minnesota when packaged with other already developing youngs like KellyO or ABradley.

DA needs to thread the needle. Keeping Rondo AND getting a top 5 pick is what he really needs right now to have enough assets to avoid a lengthy rebuild IMO. But how does he get that pick and keep RR. Plus, even if we do get a coveted pick, who do we even go after? The list is VERY short.

The only disgruntled guys on bad teams that might be available in the near future are Kevin Love and Carmelo Anthony. Forget about Aldridge, their success this year has them talking long-term extensions with their core guys.

Other than that, Anthony Davis probably isn't going anywhere but he hasn't signed an extension yet on his rookie deal which is up in 2.5 years.

Durant and Westbrook's deals are up in 2.5 and 3.5 years respectively.

If LeBron doesn't go to Cleveland, Kyrie Irving is a possibility to leave, his deal expires next year.

Randolph and Gasol's contracts are up next year as well.

The problem is the Celtics need more talent than just Rondo to convince any of these guys Boston is a winner. Also the only two guys on this list that are rim protectors are Gasol and potentially Davis.

[Celtics18]

But, there are seven in this year's draft.  All we have to do is get one of them.

[TwinTower14]

I have to agree that Rondo is not take seriously enough as a "franchise player". The guy is the best pure point in the league and his value always seems underestimated. He may not be the best scorer but his offense through passing and running the team are top flight and his defense can be extremely good as is his rebounding Any player who drops the games on Miami that Rondo has should get more consideration.

he is not the best pure PG in the league, Chris Paul is the best, Paul does just about everything on the floor better than Rondo except for rebound.  Rondo is a very good player but I don't consider him a franchise talent.  I guess we will see if DA thinks he is when his contract is up at the end of next season...

  I'd say Rondo does just about everything better than Paul other than score or defend (they're fairly equal). Paul's probably the best pg in the league but if he couldn't shoot or hit free throws any better than Rondo he'd be fairly mediocre IMO.

I guess we can disagree but if you go by their career numbers...Paul scores more, averages more assist, shoots better from the line and 3, turns it over less and the rebounding numbers are the same and Paul averages more steals... So I think Paul does just about everything better than Rondo.  Don't get me wrong, I like Rondo, he just isn't in Paul class...

[BballTim]

I consider Rondo a franchise player, but a unique one.

In this league you need at least two superstars, and Rondo is definitely one of them.

Yea - I guess it depends what your definition of a franchise player is.  I don't want to be critical but I think he is a very good player but I have a hard time putting him in the class of the Lebron, Durant, George and Paul etc...

But you don't have to.

I say Rondo is an unique franchise player, because he is the only player you must build around. You can build around LBJ/George, but with Rondo you need a good supporting cast, or a Kevin Love type of player next to him.

  Which players don't need strong supporting casts? LeBron's the best player in the league, but he needs Bosh and Wade on his team to be anything more than a fringe contender.

[winsomme]

I think a lot of what you said is accurate, excepting Kevin Love. Love's a free agent in 2016, everyone (me included) agrees that the illuminati theory of Love and Westbrook reuniting in LA in 2 years as Kobe exits state left is a great theory, but a LOT can change in 2 years.

I'd ask you to consider Kevin Garnett (or Dwyane Wade, Kobe Bryant, and LeBron James). It was widely assumed Garnett would go to LA during the summer of '07, but Boston weaseled in there with a competitive offer and convinced KG to sign an extension.

Honestly, if Boston acquires Love with time to sell him and armed with full bird rights to offer a 5-yr max deal, I think there's a very possible outcome of Love in Boston.

Also disagree that Davis is 'a stretch'. The man-brow is a revelation, that's what he is.

I really like Love and Davis and concede that they certainly are possibilities, but again they are not LIKELY possibilities.

I also agree that KG was similarly thought to be unlikely but that was actually accurate. I know that Danny won out there, but he threaded the needle there. I mean that move came AFTER we lost out on Durant.

Other than Love, Davis, and Carmelo I'm not even sure who is even on the list....

I think Davis is about as likely to be traded as Durant.  It's not happening.

It's unlikely that we'll be able to trade for a superstar in their prime.  That player is most likely going to have to come through the draft.  I suppose there's a possibility of clearing *all* of our contracts and trying to sign two stars to come play next to Rondo, but that's pretty unlikely, too.

Oh agree, Davis is not getting traded. He's the most legitimate cornerstone to come out of the draft in the last 5 years (I guess you could debate Paul George here, but meh).

I was saying I disagreed with calling him a 'stretch' as a franchise player.

Well I only had Davis as a 'stretch' because it's so early in his career and his team and still pretty crappy. I really like him as a player but I that franchise has a lot to prove in terms of building a champion and showing Davis to be a franchise player...

[winsomme]

But, there are seven in this year's draft.  All we have to do is get one of them.

I guess you're being a bit sarcastic here but I do think there will be at least two franchise players out of this draft...not sure which they are yet.

Still, the problem is whether or not Rondo playing takes us out of the running for these guys..

[winsomme]

I consider Rondo a franchise player, but a unique one.

In this league you need at least two superstars, and Rondo is definitely one of them.

Yea - I guess it depends what your definition of a franchise player is.  I don't want to be critical but I think he is a very good player but I have a hard time putting him in the class of the Lebron, Durant, George and Paul etc...

But you don't have to.

I say Rondo is an unique franchise player, because he is the only player you must build around. You can build around LBJ/George, but with Rondo you need a good supporting cast, or a Kevin Love type of player next to him.

  Which players don't need strong supporting casts? LeBron's the best player in the league, but he needs Bosh and Wade on his team to be anything more than a fringe contender.

agreed. but do Rondo and Boston have the cache to bring in a LeBron and a Bosh and other than LeBron who would you even want to bring in?

Honestly Carmelo might be the only option because they apparently like each other...who knows what Love thinks of Rondo...

[Celtics18]

But, there are seven in this year's draft.  All we have to do is get one of them.

I guess you're being a bit sarcastic here but I do think there will be at least two franchise players out of this draft...not sure which they are yet.

Still, the problem is whether or not Rondo playing takes us out of the running for these guys..

And, we probably won't be sure which two they are until they've played at least three NBA seasons.  At least three or four of the teams picking in the top six are bound to take a player who doesn't end up being a "franchise" player. 

This, to me, gets to the crux of why "tanking" for a future franchise player isn't the best strategy for rebuilding.  The draft is a risky business.  I'd love to get a couple of really good players in this year's draft, and in the five to follow.  The sheer volume of picks greatly increases our chances of landing a special player at some point over the next few years. 

I'd prefer to see Rondo help take us out of the running for a top pick.  I think there's more to be gained from beginning to develop a winner than there is by trying to lose our way to the "next franchise player."

[bleedGREENdon]

Rondo Melo and love would be fun to watch.

Say

Rondo
Bradley
Melo
Love
Willie Caulie Stein

I say that's 1-3 seed for the next 4-5 years and the big thing is our role players to determine if we win it all or not.

[cman88]

this is why I want us to get a high draft pick. if we can get a parker/wiggins etc. to pair with Rondo/sullinger and they can develop into that durant style player we will be all set.

[winsomme]

But, there are seven in this year's draft.  All we have to do is get one of them.

I guess you're being a bit sarcastic here but I do think there will be at least two franchise players out of this draft...not sure which they are yet.

Still, the problem is whether or not Rondo playing takes us out of the running for these guys..

And, we probably won't be sure which two they are until they've played at least three NBA seasons.  At least three or four of the teams picking in the top six are bound to take a player who doesn't end up being a "franchise" player. 

This, to me, gets to the crux of why "tanking" for a future franchise player isn't the best strategy for rebuilding.  The draft is a risky business.  I'd love to get a couple of really good players in this year's draft, and in the five to follow.  The sheer volume of picks greatly increases our chances of landing a special player at some point over the next few years. 

I'd prefer to see Rondo help take us out of the running for a top pick.  I think there's more to be gained from beginning to develop a winner than there is by trying to lose our way to the "next franchise player."

I agree that it is a bit of crapshoot to get the next franchise player out of this draft class but I definitely trust Danny in that regard. Give him a top pick in this draft and I have confidence that he will draft the right player or trade to our advantage.

I'm not, however, sure how us not getting a pick due to Rondo putting us back into contention helps Danny. I don't see a low-win season hindering the development of Sully or AB or hindering the value of them as chips. I just don't see the long term value of this team playing their way out of the tankerzone. I just think that makes Danny's job that much harder because he will have fewer premium assets.

[winsomme]

this is why I want us to get a high draft pick. if we can get a parker/wiggins etc. to pair with Rondo/sullinger and they can develop into that durant style player we will be all set.

but does Rondo playing take us out of contention for that pick? How do we get that pick with Rondo playing?

Also, that's a long rebuild. That's at least three years before we would be competing for a Title IMO....

[Celtics18]

But, there are seven in this year's draft.  All we have to do is get one of them.

I guess you're being a bit sarcastic here but I do think there will be at least two franchise players out of this draft...not sure which they are yet.

Still, the problem is whether or not Rondo playing takes us out of the running for these guys..

And, we probably won't be sure which two they are until they've played at least three NBA seasons.  At least three or four of the teams picking in the top six are bound to take a player who doesn't end up being a "franchise" player. 

This, to me, gets to the crux of why "tanking" for a future franchise player isn't the best strategy for rebuilding.  The draft is a risky business.  I'd love to get a couple of really good players in this year's draft, and in the five to follow.  The sheer volume of picks greatly increases our chances of landing a special player at some point over the next few years. 

I'd prefer to see Rondo help take us out of the running for a top pick.  I think there's more to be gained from beginning to develop a winner than there is by trying to lose our way to the "next franchise player."

I agree that it is a bit of crapshoot to get the next franchise player out of this draft class but I definitely trust Danny in that regard. Give him a top pick in this draft and I have confidence that he will draft the right player or trade to our advantage.

I'm not, however, sure how us not getting a pick due to Rondo putting us back into contention helps Danny. I don't see a low-win season hindering the development of Sully or AB or hindering the value of them as chips. I just don't see the long term value of this team playing their way out of the tankerzone. I just think that makes Danny's job that much harder because he will have fewer premium assets.

I think these are the advantages to winning:

I do believe playing for a club that is winning ball games makes our players more valuable assets.  We hear phrases like, "the guy puts up good numbers on a crappy team, but can he really contribute to a winner?'  all the time.  I think that if our guys remain at their current level of production, but start to do so on a team that wins 50% of their games, they'll be likely to be viewed as more valuable assets around the league.

Not only do I believe that winning some games makes players more valuable as "assets", but I believe that it actually can make them better basketball players.  I know this isn't a popular opinion around these parts, but I still believe that learning to play for wins on a competitive team early in ones career can be extremely helpful in development. 

I also think that if we show that we can be a team that can become a contender with the right help--that we already have some of the pieces in place--that we will be a more attractive destination for good to great players around the league.

So, I do think there is something to be gained from winning from the perspective of building for the future.