If Lance Stephenson is worth 7-9 mil, how much for Bradley?

[chambers]

If I'm Danny, and thank goodness I'm not, I knock on Stephenson's door with the $10M TPE in my pocket for a 4 x $10M contract. 

The prospect of having Stephenson and Green on the wing with Rondo dishing and Sully and KO gladly moving the ball around is just too pretty in my dreams.

And as 3rd guard in that scenario, I'd probably rather have Crawford than Bradley, honestly.

I'd be shocked if the Pacers let him walk, but who knows.

Me too, but how much can they afford?

I actually think if we keep Rondo, Lance Stephenson is a waste of money.

On of Born Ready's best contributions is his ability to pass the ball as a second primary ball handler. So, you can have a weak pure-point (but talented player) like Westbrook, Lillard, etc.., and Stephenson can makeup for a bit of that deficiency while also filling all the duties of a normal 2.

But with Rondo, we need a guy who knocks down shots, defends, and will work to get open. We don't need another high-level passer necessarily, and we especially don't need to over pay for a skill we don't need.

Those above things you mentioned are what Stephenson excels at though. His passing is a bonus- in fact he's passing too much because of the star power on his Indiana team IMO.

He also brings a level of toughness that we seriously need.
I would love Larry Sanders or Asik + Stephenson on the defensive end. Wow we'd be KG/Perk tough.

He's just not taking enough shots- in fact he's taking the same amount of shots as Harden was as a 6th man in OKC in 35 mins a game.

[SCeltic34]

I don't think Lance Stephenon's market value has much impact on Bradley. As players, they are very different and what one gets in free agency will not be telling of the other one's value.

Lance Stephenson is a good sized two guard at 6-5 with great physique / strength (220lbs) and excellent length. His physical talent and skill-set allows him to play three positions (PG, SG, SF). Avery Bradley is a combo guard (6-2, 205lbs). A tweener whose limited ball-handling and passing makes him ill-equipped to run a team and his lack of size at SG still leaves many people skeptical of his ability to be a full time starting SG.

Lance Stephenson is an exceptional rebounding two guard while Avery Bradley is a limited rebounding SG but an above average rebounding PG. Lance Stephenson is an excellent secondary ball-handler, passer and playmaker while Bradley continues to struggle provide anything more than adequate ball-handling and passing even when moved off the ball to SG.

So skill-set, physical talent and questions over fit make Bradley a very different proposition in free agency.

And because of those reasons -- particularly concerns over how Bradley will fit alongside other guards due to lack of size + PG skills -- I don't expect there to be much (if any) interest in Avery Bradley for (1) a contract worth more than the MLE (2) and because A.Bradley will be a restricted free agent, I expect Danny Ainge will match -- or at least be able to convince anyone that he will match -- any MLE offers given to Bradley. Which I think will allow Danny Ainge to cut down the market for Bradley and be able to talk him into taking a less than MLE offer. Say around $4 million per annum.

But all it takes is one GM, and viola, you have an overpaid player that you won't want to match for.

The Knicks were going to match any offer for Jeremy Lin... until Houston offered him a ridiculous contract.  I don't think the Bulls expected Asik to get the contract he did either.

Heck, even Charlie Villaneuva got paid (don't remember if he was restricted or not).

All it takes is one offer.  I could certainly see Bradley getting a 7 mil/year for 4 years type of offer.  Not sure Danny will want to match.

[obnoxiousmime]

I don't think Lance Stephenon's market value has much impact on Bradley. As players, they are very different and what one gets in free agency will not be telling of the other one's value.

Lance Stephenson is a good sized two guard at 6-5 with great physique / strength (220lbs) and excellent length. His physical talent and skill-set allows him to play three positions (PG, SG, SF). Avery Bradley is a combo guard (6-2, 205lbs). A tweener whose limited ball-handling and passing makes him ill-equipped to run a team and his lack of size at SG still leaves many people skeptical of his ability to be a full time starting SG.

Lance Stephenson is an exceptional rebounding two guard while Avery Bradley is a limited rebounding SG but an above average rebounding PG. Lance Stephenson is an excellent secondary ball-handler, passer and playmaker while Bradley continues to struggle provide anything more than adequate ball-handling and passing even when moved off the ball to SG.

So skill-set, physical talent and questions over fit make Bradley a very different proposition in free agency.

And because of those reasons -- particularly concerns over how Bradley will fit alongside other guards due to lack of size + PG skills -- I don't expect there to be much (if any) interest in Avery Bradley for (1) a contract worth more than the MLE (2) and because A.Bradley will be a restricted free agent, I expect Danny Ainge will match -- or at least be able to convince anyone that he will match -- any MLE offers given to Bradley. Which I think will allow Danny Ainge to cut down the market for Bradley and be able to talk him into taking a less than MLE offer. Say around $4 million per annum.

If that's the case his agent has a lot to explain. The reports were they turned down a 4 yr/24 million extension offer which leads me to believe they believe there's at least an outside shot of him getting 7+. Otherwise why risk injury this season(he's been injury prone throughout his career)?

Of course it could be a false rumor too, spread to establish a baseline price this summer for FA negotiations. It's worked so far because before the report I probably would have said, 6/year is the max. Now I'm wondering if the market will go to 7/8.

[kozlodoev]

I don't think Lance Stephenon's market value has much impact on Bradley. As players, they are very different and what one gets in free agency will not be telling of the other one's value.

Lance Stephenson is a good sized two guard at 6-5 with great physique / strength (220lbs) and excellent length. His physical talent and skill-set allows him to play three positions (PG, SG, SF). Avery Bradley is a combo guard (6-2, 205lbs). A tweener whose limited ball-handling and passing makes him ill-equipped to run a team and his lack of size at SG still leaves many people skeptical of his ability to be a full time starting SG.

Lance Stephenson is an exceptional rebounding two guard while Avery Bradley is a limited rebounding SG but an above average rebounding PG. Lance Stephenson is an excellent secondary ball-handler, passer and playmaker while Bradley continues to struggle provide anything more than adequate ball-handling and passing even when moved off the ball to SG.

So skill-set, physical talent and questions over fit make Bradley a very different proposition in free agency.

And because of those reasons -- particularly concerns over how Bradley will fit alongside other guards due to lack of size + PG skills -- I don't expect there to be much (if any) interest in Avery Bradley for (1) a contract worth more than the MLE (2) and because A.Bradley will be a restricted free agent, I expect Danny Ainge will match -- or at least be able to convince anyone that he will match -- any MLE offers given to Bradley. Which I think will allow Danny Ainge to cut down the market for Bradley and be able to talk him into taking a less than MLE offer. Say around $4 million per annum.

But all it takes is one GM, and viola, you have an overpaid player that you won't want to match for.

The Knicks were going to match any offer for Jeremy Lin... until Houston offered him a ridiculous contract.  I don't think the Bulls expected Asik to get the contract he did either.

Heck, even Charlie Villaneuva got paid (don't remember if he was restricted or not).

All it takes is one offer.  I could certainly see Bradley getting a 7 mil/year for 4 years type of offer.  Not sure Danny will want to match.

The Lin contract was not ridiculous for Houston (8 million/year). It was ridiculous for NY, because there's no way they were taking a $15 million cap hit in 2014-2015.

Bradley doesn't fall under the Gilbert Arenas Rule, so that scenario isn't going to happen.

[j804]

I don't think Lance Stephenon's market value has much impact on Bradley. As players, they are very different and what one gets in free agency will not be telling of the other one's value.

Lance Stephenson is a good sized two guard at 6-5 with great physique / strength (220lbs) and excellent length. His physical talent and skill-set allows him to play three positions (PG, SG, SF). Avery Bradley is a combo guard (6-2, 205lbs). A tweener whose limited ball-handling and passing makes him ill-equipped to run a team and his lack of size at SG still leaves many people skeptical of his ability to be a full time starting SG.

Lance Stephenson is an exceptional rebounding two guard while Avery Bradley is a limited rebounding SG but an above average rebounding PG. Lance Stephenson is an excellent secondary ball-handler, passer and playmaker while Bradley continues to struggle provide anything more than adequate ball-handling and passing even when moved off the ball to SG.

So skill-set, physical talent and questions over fit make Bradley a very different proposition in free agency.

And because of those reasons -- particularly concerns over how Bradley will fit alongside other guards due to lack of size + PG skills -- I don't expect there to be much (if any) interest in Avery Bradley for (1) a contract worth more than the MLE (2) and because A.Bradley will be a restricted free agent, I expect Danny Ainge will match -- or at least be able to convince anyone that he will match -- any MLE offers given to Bradley. Which I think will allow Danny Ainge to cut down the market for Bradley and be able to talk him into taking a less than MLE offer. Say around $4 million per annum.

he will be offered 8 easily are we forgetting how owners are tossing money around? once they can't get a hold of one of those highly sought free agents bam plan b other guys get overpaid

[slamtheking]

I can't see giving Bradley or Stephenson that sort of money on this team.  As such, I would try to trade Bradley during the season for someone I think makes more sense long term.

Maybe something like this:

Waiters, Bennett, Bynum, Jack

for

Green, Lee, Bass, Bradley, Bogans

Boston upgrades (imo) at SG with Waiters, gets a real PG in Jack (to start now and be the third guard when Rondo is back), and takes flyers on Bynum and Bennett.  Losing Green is tough, but given the rest of the trade I think it would be worth it.

at least you're consistant in your efforts to trade for pennies on the dollar.  Horrible trade idea for the C's.  just horrible.
we give up arguably the best 4 players in the deal for 1 solid player (Jack), 2 recent draft picks that went way too high and have been underwhelming (to be extremely kind) and a head case center that's basically a contract to be cut.

[obnoxiousmime]

I don't think Lance Stephenon's market value has much impact on Bradley. As players, they are very different and what one gets in free agency will not be telling of the other one's value.

Lance Stephenson is a good sized two guard at 6-5 with great physique / strength (220lbs) and excellent length. His physical talent and skill-set allows him to play three positions (PG, SG, SF). Avery Bradley is a combo guard (6-2, 205lbs). A tweener whose limited ball-handling and passing makes him ill-equipped to run a team and his lack of size at SG still leaves many people skeptical of his ability to be a full time starting SG.

Lance Stephenson is an exceptional rebounding two guard while Avery Bradley is a limited rebounding SG but an above average rebounding PG. Lance Stephenson is an excellent secondary ball-handler, passer and playmaker while Bradley continues to struggle provide anything more than adequate ball-handling and passing even when moved off the ball to SG.

So skill-set, physical talent and questions over fit make Bradley a very different proposition in free agency.

And because of those reasons -- particularly concerns over how Bradley will fit alongside other guards due to lack of size + PG skills -- I don't expect there to be much (if any) interest in Avery Bradley for (1) a contract worth more than the MLE (2) and because A.Bradley will be a restricted free agent, I expect Danny Ainge will match -- or at least be able to convince anyone that he will match -- any MLE offers given to Bradley. Which I think will allow Danny Ainge to cut down the market for Bradley and be able to talk him into taking a less than MLE offer. Say around $4 million per annum.

he will be offered 8 easily are we forgetting how owners are tossing money around? once they can't get a hold of one of those highly sought free agents bam plan b other guys get overpaid

To pile on with what some other have said, I just don't see what the fascination with Waiters is besides that dangerous allure of "potential".

He seems to have a ceiling of a glorifed 6th man with a bad attitude to me.  Celtics don't need that.

Dion Waiters. The guy you really don't want to beat you, but really don't want on your team even more.

I live in Cleveland and a large portion of the media and fan base, side with Waiters over Irving in that whole dispute and in addition  believe it was blown way out of proportion by the national media.  It was more of a non-issue than anything, but a lot of Clevelanders are fed up with Irving and his attitude.  He takes long stretches off, is a ball hog far too often, and many feel he is the issue.  Couple that with management bending over backwards for him and he seems to be the biggest issue in Cleveland.

  Irving's a good scorer but that seems to be the extent of his contributions to his team.

Yeah and that's where he needs to grow from. A big part of the problem is that Waiters is a similar player in that his value is all off his offense. Mostly his own offense to boot (like Irving)

I thought they were trying to change the entitlement culture after LeBron left. I guess they haven't learned their lesson after all.

[chambers]

I can't see giving Bradley or Stephenson that sort of money on this team.  As such, I would try to trade Bradley during the season for someone I think makes more sense long term.

Maybe something like this:

Waiters, Bennett, Bynum, Jack

for

Green, Lee, Bass, Bradley, Bogans

Boston upgrades (imo) at SG with Waiters, gets a real PG in Jack (to start now and be the third guard when Rondo is back), and takes flyers on Bynum and Bennett.  Losing Green is tough, but given the rest of the trade I think it would be worth it.

at least you're consistant in your efforts to trade for pennies on the dollar.  Horrible trade idea for the C's.  just horrible.
we give up arguably the best 4 players in the deal for 1 solid player (Jack), 2 recent draft picks that went way too high and have been underwhelming (to be extremely kind) and a head case center that's basically a contract to be cut.

That's your perspective. In actual fact many others including myself would say that's a reasonable deal to get rid of Bass and Lee's deals. If you think Green is overpaid or mediocre, then replacing him with Bennett and Waiters is completely decent to excellent value. Cavs fans would slap anyone for suggesting this idea- they'd be sending out two young talents, plus Bynums expiring PLUS taking on Lee and Bass for another 1.5 and 2.5 years.
Bradley is a free agent at the end of this season so he can leave to the highest bidder.
So we'd lock in two young lottery picks from a terrible team and coach/organization and put them into Brad Stevens system and a dose of Celtic pride. Meanwhile we unload Lee's deal, unload Bass's deal and waive Bynum, essentially clearing about 12 million off the books immediately
Green 9 mill
Bass 7 mill
Lee 5 mill
Bradley expiring 2 million

=23 mill going out from Celtics

Jack 4 mill
Waiters 3 mill
Bennett 4 mill
Bynum 6 mill
=11 million coming in (after Bynum is waived)

So the trade isn't dog poo like you're making it out to be. The Cavs would 95% say no.
Anyway, we're not trading away an All Star level best player, we're moving Jeff Green, Mr 16 points, 4 rebounds, 2 assists in 33.5 mins a game Jeff Green.

[mgent]

I think because Bradley is hitting FA people are trying to forget that 8mil is just what a good SG is worth.  Same way there was a lot of delusion when Perk was hitting FA about an average starting C being worth 8mil. 

I also think Stephenson will (and should) get more Bradley.  He's one of the best at his position in passing, ball handling, and overall play-making, whereas Bradley is probably the worst.  Guys typically get paid for that (Harden, Odom, Diaw, Iggy, Manu, Hedo, George).  That plus his height gives him another advantage over Bradley in terms of potential.  I'd guess he earns 8-9mil while Bradley earns 6-7mil.  If Afflalo can get that much they should be able to.

I'm also guessing Ainge matches that type of high offer.  If he doesn't it's only because he's moved/going to move Wallace and has Crawford willing to play for a 1 year deal to try and earn a big contract.

[Fafnir]

I think because Bradley is hitting FA people are trying to forget that 8mil is just what a good SG is worth.  Same way there was a lot of delusion when Perk was hitting FA about an average starting C being worth 8mil. 

8 million dollars would put Bradley in the top 10 for a SG.

I think people are swallowing the 8 million dollar figure without looking at Bradley's production and what is paid around the league for shooting guards. If you add in PGs you'd be paying him in the top 25 range of the league.

Is Bradley a top 25 guard in the league?

[kozlodoev]

Is Bradley a top 25 guard in the league?

There certainly are 5+ starting SGs that are worse than him.

[Fafnir]

Is Bradley a top 25 guard in the league?

There certainly are 5+ starting SGs that are worse than him.

Guard, not just SG.

[jambr380]

Is Bradley a top 25 guard in the league?

There certainly are 5+ starting SGs that are worse than him.

Guard, not just SG.

The 10 sg number is more impressive (and more important) than the 25 guard number. You are right, though - if you compare him to all of those pgs, he will surely come up short.

That being said, he is a very good player and I like him as a starter or a first guard off the bench (much the same way I like Crawford in the same role...even though they are completely different players).

As others have said before, his value is more in line with Tony Allen which is about 5 million.

[kozlodoev]

Is Bradley a top 25 guard in the league?

There certainly are 5+ starting SGs that are worse than him.

Guard, not just SG.

This way of approaching the is kind of pointless, by the way, given that there are better players than Bradley who are on their rookie deals, and simply players on bad contracts.

Guards who make ~$8 million right now include OJ Mayo, Jameer Nelson, Rodney Stucky, Marcus Thornton, and Mike Conley. Jennings and Dragic are in the ~$7-8 million range, and Calderon, Korver, Turner, and Kevin Martin make $6.5+ million.

Granted, a lot of this will depend on team needs and cap space, but I think that an offer in the $7-8 range is possible, and an offer north of $6.5 million is almost guaranteed. Not sure what you were expecting.

To put things in perspective, recent full non-taxpayer MLE signings include Courtney Lee, Jamal Crawford, Lou Williams, Martell Webster, and Jason Terry. Going to the $5 million level gives you Ramon Sessions or Barea.

Considering Bradley's age and skills, I think it's absolutely unreasonable to think that we can replace him seamlessly with a MLE type player. The Celtics should absolutely match any $7-odd million offer he may receive, and should probably keep him at $8 million, too.

[kozlodoev]

As others have said before, his value is more in line with Tony Allen which is about 5 million.

Limited as he is, at an age of 22 Bradley is a better offensive player than Tony Allen will ever be. Especially now that he seems to have gotten his head screwed right.