Boston legitimately 4th seed

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

Why are so many people hating on being a "middling team"?

I just don't get it. I want someone to find me the stats on the teams who won the championship that weren't "middling"... it seems to me that you don't go from bad(constantly missing playoffs) to great (champ), you go from good (playoffs/contender) to great (champ)!

There's nothing wrong with being "middling" if you have a clear idea of how you're going to climb higher than that.

My issue is with the idea that it's acceptable to just be a 3rd or 4th seed every year and maybe win a game or two against the Heat or Pacers in the second round.  I am not in favor of the team investing any of its resources for a "quick fix" that will just ensure they win 45ish games for a few years.


Trading for Asik and spending money to hold onto Bradley and Crawford after this season could ensure that this team is reasonably competitive for the next couple of years, with Rondo, Green, Sullinger, Bradley, Asik, and a handful of familiar role players off the bench.  That would be a nice feel-good underdog that could maybe peak with 50 wins or so.  But that team would be pretty much topped out money-wise, and there wouldn't be any lottery picks coming to give a major talent infusion.  That's called being stuck in neutral.


But if you're content to just have a team that's reasonably entertaining every night and can play a series or two in the playoffs each April, then that's a sound plan.

Your plan sounds even more sound than that. Let's get rid of everyone, get a bunch of picks, and what be the same Celtics for 20 years before KG, PP, and Ray. Sounds great.

I not once said anything about wanting to keep all of these players, we can keep the key players and build off the others and the many picks we already have. Just b/c I don't agree with the tanking strategy doesn't mean I want the team bounced in the 2nd round every season, that'd be stupid. I don't agree with tanking and unlike like some people, I know there are multiple ways to build a champion.

Again I ask, how many teams go from what some call "middling" to champion and how many go from constantly missing the playoffs (hoping to land LeBron) to champion? I don't know of any teams from scrub missing the playoffs to turn around and be a champ the next season or even 2. I'm thinking back to recent champs... Heat were making the playoffs with Wade even though they still stunk but theirs is a different tale, how often are you going to get 3 of the best players in the game willing to take the deals they did? Mavs, they were constantly winning a lot of games and making the playoffs. Spurs have been good and "middling" all the seasons they didn't win. Lakers didn't win out of nowhere. I dunno, my memory isn't that good but those teams went seasons just making the playoffs until they built themselves into champs, they were contenders or "middling" until they won it.

[LarBrd33]

Why are so many people hating on being a "middling team"?

I just don't get it. I want someone to find me the stats on the teams who won the championship that weren't "middling"... it seems to me that you don't go from bad(constantly missing playoffs) to great (champ), you go from good (playoffs/contender) to great (champ)!

Problem is that only 9 teams have won the title since 1980.  In my lifetime, only 9 teams have won the championship.  34 years.  Like no other sport, this one is dominated by exceptional talent.  Bird, Magic, Isiah, Jordan, Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Bron.  Some teams are ok just making the playoffs every year and being entertaining... and it's plausible Boston could be the Nuggets East and we'd all enjoy rooting for the team and pretending like we had an actual shot at winning a title.  But the Celtics aim higher.  They want to be champions.  Landing that exceptional franchise cornerstone is the key ingredient.  We don't have one now.  Free agency isn't likely.  Our best options are the trade route and the draft.

[LarBrd33]

The Eastern Conference legitimately bad.

The Celtics are still playing at a 37 win pace.  In a normal season that would put them in the 8-10 range.

Which is why at this point they might as well just dump the picks now for instant upgrades.  Try to be competitive now.  The long game isn't going to work out.

Brooklyn is finally coming together, as well.  As expected, all it took was the return of Deron Williams.

Why?  Dump picks that could turn into really nice players (however unlikely) and will at least be cost-controlled for 4+ years in order to acquire more middle of the road players and solidify our team as a perennial 3rd or 4th seed?  We're still talking about picks in the teens.  It's not like we'll be picking at the end of the 1st round.

We kind of are, though.  Our picks are currently projected 19th and 20th.  Yes, I get that we've had some luck picking in that range, but there's countless examples of picks in that range being worthless.  We can probably add a couple more role players, though.  I'm just saying that with how this season is going, it might be a fine idea sacrificing our future middling role players for players who can contribute in the present. 

[PhoSita]

The Eastern Conference legitimately bad.

The Celtics are still playing at a 37 win pace.  In a normal season that would put them in the 8-10 range.

Which is why at this point they might as well just dump the picks now for instant upgrades.  Try to be competitive now.  The long game isn't going to work out.

Brooklyn is finally coming together, as well.  As expected, all it took was the return of Deron Williams.

Why?  Dump picks that could turn into really nice players (however unlikely) and will at least be cost-controlled for 4+ years in order to acquire more middle of the road players and solidify our team as a perennial 3rd or 4th seed?  We're still talking about picks in the teens.  It's not like we'll be picking at the end of the 1st round.

We kind of are, though.  Our picks are currently projected 19th and 20th.  Yes, I get that we've had some luck picking in that range, but there's countless examples of picks in that range being worthless.  We can probably add a couple more role players, though.  I'm just saying that with how this season is going, it might be a fine idea sacrificing our future middling role players for players who can contribute in the present.

19th and 20th is very different from 25-30.

1st round picks are gold in this league, especially with all the new luxury tax repeater penalties.

[BleedGreen1989]

Why are so many people hating on being a "middling team"?

I just don't get it. I want someone to find me the stats on the teams who won the championship that weren't "middling"... it seems to me that you don't go from bad(constantly missing playoffs) to great (champ), you go from good (playoffs/contender) to great (champ)!

There's nothing wrong with being "middling" if you have a clear idea of how you're going to climb higher than that.

My issue is with the idea that it's acceptable to just be a 3rd or 4th seed every year and maybe win a game or two against the Heat or Pacers in the second round.  I am not in favor of the team investing any of its resources for a "quick fix" that will just ensure they win 45ish games for a few years.


Trading for Asik and spending money to hold onto Bradley and Crawford after this season could ensure that this team is reasonably competitive for the next couple of years, with Rondo, Green, Sullinger, Bradley, Asik, and a handful of familiar role players off the bench.  That would be a nice feel-good underdog that could maybe peak with 50 wins or so.  But that team would be pretty much topped out money-wise, and there wouldn't be any lottery picks coming to give a major talent infusion.  That's called being stuck in neutral.


But if you're content to just have a team that's reasonably entertaining every night and can play a series or two in the playoffs each April, then that's a sound plan.

Your plan sounds even more sound than that. Let's get rid of everyone, get a bunch of picks, and what be the same Celtics for 20 years before KG, PP, and Ray. Sounds great.

I not once said anything about wanting to keep all of these players, we can keep the key players and build off the others and the many picks we already have. Just b/c I don't agree with the tanking strategy doesn't mean I want the team bounced in the 2nd round every season, that'd be stupid. I don't agree with tanking and unlike like some people, I know there are multiple ways to build a champion.

Again I ask, how many teams go from what some call "middling" to champion and how many go from constantly missing the playoffs (hoping to land LeBron) to champion? I don't know of any teams from scrub missing the playoffs to turn around and be a champ the next season or even 2. I'm thinking back to recent champs... Heat were making the playoffs with Wade even though they still stunk but theirs is a different tale, how often are you going to get 3 of the best players in the game willing to take the deals they did? Mavs, they were constantly winning a lot of games and making the playoffs. Spurs have been good and "middling" all the seasons they didn't win. Lakers didn't win out of nowhere. I dunno, my memory isn't that good but those teams went seasons just making the playoffs until they built themselves into champs, they were contenders or "middling" until they won it.

Tend to see this talk almost daily.

"Trade away everybody! All for Banner 18! Championship or bust! Gahhh!"

Simple question is, do you really TRUST Danny Ainge? If you don't than that's your problem, not the players/picks. If you do, then sit back, relax, and stop trying to fit his plan into this neat little box.

[PhoSita]

I not once said anything about wanting to keep all of these players, we can keep the key players and build off the others and the many picks we already have. Just b/c I don't agree with the tanking strategy doesn't mean I want the team bounced in the 2nd round every season, that'd be stupid. I don't agree with tanking and unlike like some people, I know there are multiple ways to build a champion.

All the teams you mentioned were among the worst 10 teams in the league for at least a season in order to get the players they ended up building around for the following decade or more.


I don't think that not tanking means the team has to focus on maximizing win potential in every given season.

Right now, the team is in rebuilding mode, still trying to put together the pieces that can become a long term contender.  That doesn't mean the organization is trying to lose games.  It just means that there are priorities that are higher than winning as many games as possible this season. 

The focus is on doing what is necessary for long term success.  Sometimes that will mean making moves that make the team worse in the short term.

One of the worst things you can do as a team without the pieces to be a contender is to invest resources (salary, picks / young players in trades, etc) in order to acquire middle of the road players so that the team can be respectable.

You're correct that most teams have to enjoy some sustained success (i.e. competing in the playoffs for a season or three) before taking the leap to contender status.  The core players have to learn to play winning basketball together.  But that's a stage your team enters after putting the necessary pieces together.  This team isn't at that stage, yet.

[Moranis]

You are correct that Boston is tied for Detroit for the 4th best record in the East, but Boston is still on pace for a whopping 37 wins and is 6 games from the worst record in the conference and 9 games from the best record.  In other words, not much has to happen for Boston to be solidly in the lottery.  Also, Brooklyn has won 4 of 5 and looks like a vastly different team now that they are getting healthy.  I would be surprised if Boston is still leading the Atlantic 10 games from now. 

[cman88]

To be fair I was all in favor of tanking...if we were winning because of our vets I would be more leery

But we are winning mainly because of sullinger who is nearly averaging a double double, bradley and jordan crawford...which means our young guys are developing

[slamtheking]

You are correct that Boston is tied for Detroit for the 4th best record in the East, but Boston is still on pace for a whopping 37 wins and is 6 games from the worst record in the conference and 9 games from the best record.  In other words, not much has to happen for Boston to be solidly in the lottery.  Also, Brooklyn has won 4 of 5 and looks like a vastly different team now that they are getting healthy.  I would be surprised if Boston is still leading the Atlantic 10 games from now.

very true. 

I think Brooklyn eventually overtakes the C's now that their players are returning from injuries.  Same will probably happen with NY once they start getting healthy.  I'm beginning to think they still might make the playoffs even if those other 2 teams pass them in the standings since so many teams in the Least are really underperforming this year.

[Clench123]

To be fair I was all in favor of tanking...if we were winning because of our vets I would be more leery

But we are winning mainly because of sullinger who is nearly averaging a double double, bradley and jordan crawford...which means our young guys are developing

All thanks to the genius of Brad Stevens, and to a much lesser extent, our temporary assistant coach in Rondo

[TwinTower14]

To be fair I was all in favor of tanking...if we were winning because of our vets I would be more leery

But we are winning mainly because of sullinger who is nearly averaging a double double, bradley and jordan crawford...which means our young guys are developing

All thanks to the genius of Brad Stevens, and to a much lesser extent, our temporary assistant coach in Rondo

I agree with this, I was a pro tanker but it's hard not to love what they are doing.  Sully is turning into a beast, Bradley is playing great and I am interested to see what Rondo brings to the table?  I am coming clean, I am all in now and hope they can add a piece grab the 3rd seed.  How good is Brad Stevens?

[nickagneta]

I agree with many here who consider themselves as wanting this team to be as bad as possible this year that adding players this year just to get marginally better is a poor strategy.

If trades are to be made, and I really don't think Danny is going to make any this season(in the off season, that's another story), Danny will make them to improve this club long term, not short term. Given what he has seen from the development standpoint of players like Crawford, Sullinger, Bradley, Olynyk, Pressey, Faverani and even further development as team players making their game more well rounded like Green and Bass and Lee, I think Danny will be happy to let expiring contracts(Bogans, Humphries, Brooks) expire, add 2 first round picks to this team along with a fully recovered Rondo and see what we have next year with farther development of the youth.

Sullinger looks like he has All-Star(Kevin Love Like) ability to be a major player on a championship squad. Rondo has already proven he can be the man for a team with his all around game and will to win. Bradley is rounding into one of the better pure shooting guards that also happens to be a major difference maker on the defensive end(I still say he has a DPOY run in him one year). If Olynyk and the two picks, which I feel will be very good to maybe one being great) develop, this team is going to be a strong playoff team for years while adding lottery youth from Brooklyn's picks every year.

I'm not sure free agency or a major trade will be necessary but if it turns out Danny can land a Durant because OKC can't afford him anymore or Anthony Davis because Davis hates New Orleans, Ainge will have the picks and youth to make such a trade or sign and trade.

[PhoSita]

I agree with many here who consider themselves as wanting this team to be as bad as possible this year that adding players this year just to get marginally better is a poor strategy.

If trades are to be made, and I really don't think Danny is going to make any this season(in the off season, that's another story), Danny will make them to improve this club long term, not short term. Given what he has seen from the development standpoint of players like Crawford, Sullinger, Bradley, Olynyk, Pressey, Faverani and even further development as team players making their game more well rounded like Green and Bass and Lee, I think Danny will be happy to let expiring contracts(Bogans, Humphries, Brooks) expire, add 2 first round picks to this team along with a fully recovered Rondo and see what we have next year with farther development of the youth.

Sullinger looks like he has All-Star(Kevin Love Like) ability to be a major player on a championship squad. Rondo has already proven he can be the man for a team with his all around game and will to win. Bradley is rounding into one of the better pure shooting guards that also happens to be a major difference maker on the defensive end(I still say he has a DPOY run in him one year). If Olynyk and the two picks, which I feel will be very good to maybe one being great) develop, this team is going to be a strong playoff team for years while adding lottery youth from Brooklyn's picks every year.

I'm not sure free agency or a major trade will be necessary but if it turns out Danny can land a Durant because OKC can't afford him anymore or Anthony Davis because Davis hates New Orleans, Ainge will have the picks and youth to make such a trade or sign and trade.

Even if Ainge is taking a conservative approach like this (not looking to make any major moves until the off-season), I feel like trading Bass makes too much sense to not find a deal if possible.

Surely there's a team out there that can use Bass's talents as a capable backup big man who is an elite mid-range shooter and a very good individual defender.

It makes too much sense for the Celtics to clear some salary room and open up minutes for the younger big men.

I'm not as optimistic that there'll be a trade for Lee unless it's part of a bigger trade, but shedding his contract would be good, too.

Crawford's future here is a bit of a mystery because it'll all come down to whether or not he can continue his efficient, team-friendly play once he's relegated to a bench role.  If indications are that it won't be worth it to spend the money to bring him back, Ainge should see if he can get anything for him at the deadline. 

There are teams that can use a spot-starter who can score like Crawford, though we might not get anything better than a 2nd round pick and a minor player (e.g. Tony Snell + 2nd from Chicago).

[kozlodoev]

To be fair I was all in favor of tanking...if we were winning because of our vets I would be more leery

But we are winning mainly because of sullinger who is nearly averaging a double double, bradley and jordan crawford...which means our young guys are developing

All thanks to the genius of Brad Stevens, and to a much lesser extent, our temporary assistant coach in Rondo

All thanks to the fact that we have had the second weakest (!) schedule in the NBA so far.

[nickagneta]

I see Bass as the perfect player for a team like this. He shows the youth how to be a consummate professional while instilling in them the importance of two way play and maximizing your strengths. His contract is not expensive and his playing time has not hindered Olynyk, Faverani or Sullinger from getting major on court minutes to develop in game as well as on the practice court.

If I am Danny I want Bass around at least all of this year. Moving him in the off season, to me, makes more sense, if he is going to be moved at all.