Author Topic: If rondo comesback and we start losing  (Read 22984 times)

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Re: If rondo comesback and we start losing
« Reply #90 on: December 10, 2013, 10:02:54 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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We start losing anytime we meet a team with a  good huge dominate center .   



Re: If rondo comesback and we start losing
« Reply #91 on: December 10, 2013, 10:12:24 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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I think that when Rondo comes back we may see a small bit of a role reversal. With the prior teams Rondo brought the ball up the court (or Pierce) and set up the offense. The play usually went from there.

Now I think we may see Crawford or Bradley bring the ball up and Rondo be a cutter or wing player filling a lane. This will necessitate the defense respecting the ballhandler more because these two can hit jumpers and Rondo is flat out dangerous driving to the basket.

It may change the old 'sagging' strategy quickly.

  There are two main benefits to the defense when they sag off of him. One, they can prevent others from scoring because Rondo's defender can help off of him. That doesn't really work, because Rondo's able to get assists like they're going out of style. Two, it's harder for Rondo to drive when his defender gives him space. This doesn't really work either as Rondo doesn't have much trouble getting into the lane. It's not really an effective enough strategy to force us to take the ball out of Rondo's hands and give it to Bradley or Crawford.

Maybe not, but you cant tell me it wouldnt be wonderful to see Rondo running the floor and being hit with a pass from Crawford as he cuts to the basket while Crawfords man 'D's him up at the 3pt line.

  Sure, on occasion, but what we're losing by taking the ball out of Rondo's hands and giving it to Crawford is playing away from our strengths.

Remains to be seen. Rondo's still not back yet, and we have no idea how effective he'll be when he returns.
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Re: If rondo comesback and we start losing
« Reply #92 on: December 10, 2013, 11:48:13 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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And there has been a lot of talk about assist percentage.  I don't think it is a good thing when one player gets a high percentage of the assists.  I would rather see balance.  I bet if you checked San Antonio, Miami, and Indiana, there isn't one player "hogging" all the assists.

Last season, Tony Parker was 4th in the NBA with a 40.4 assist %.

Players in the three-point era who have had an assist percentage of 45% or higher in 2000+ minutes in a season: Mark Jackson, Magic Johnson, Andre Miller, Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Rajon Rondo, John Stockdon, Isiah Thomas, Deron Williams.
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Re: If rondo comesback and we start losing
« Reply #93 on: December 10, 2013, 11:59:34 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Rondo is a great player to have .....but the core but be a dominate big to build around , or a incredible payer like a young Pierce or KG. or ad a star.......draft pick.  Like

Jabari  Parker

Add. Good.  Center like Marc Gasol and we are off an d running

May have to get rid of Rondo to tank.......and swap a bunch of good players for a Center

No different than swapping al Jefferson, for KG ....... Superior dominate big to go with Pierce

Re: If rondo comesback and we start losing
« Reply #94 on: December 11, 2013, 12:42:46 AM »

Offline BballTim

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I think that when Rondo comes back we may see a small bit of a role reversal. With the prior teams Rondo brought the ball up the court (or Pierce) and set up the offense. The play usually went from there.

Now I think we may see Crawford or Bradley bring the ball up and Rondo be a cutter or wing player filling a lane. This will necessitate the defense respecting the ballhandler more because these two can hit jumpers and Rondo is flat out dangerous driving to the basket.

It may change the old 'sagging' strategy quickly.

  There are two main benefits to the defense when they sag off of him. One, they can prevent others from scoring because Rondo's defender can help off of him. That doesn't really work, because Rondo's able to get assists like they're going out of style. Two, it's harder for Rondo to drive when his defender gives him space. This doesn't really work either as Rondo doesn't have much trouble getting into the lane. It's not really an effective enough strategy to force us to take the ball out of Rondo's hands and give it to Bradley or Crawford.

Maybe not, but you cant tell me it wouldnt be wonderful to see Rondo running the floor and being hit with a pass from Crawford as he cuts to the basket while Crawfords man 'D's him up at the 3pt line.

  Sure, on occasion, but what we're losing by taking the ball out of Rondo's hands and giving it to Crawford is playing away from our strengths.

Remains to be seen. Rondo's still not back yet, and we have no idea how effective he'll be when he returns.

  If you're talking about how Rondo might not be that effective while he's not fully healthy I'd agree. If you're saying that we're better off with Crawford running the offense when Rondo's at full strength then you're kidding yourself.

Re: If rondo comesback and we start losing
« Reply #95 on: December 11, 2013, 01:12:09 AM »

Offline BballTim

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They aren't going to take the ball out of Rondo's hand.  The sagging defense is even more effective when Rondo doesn't have the ball.

Early in the possession, they just need to work the ball up the court to whoever is up the court (as they have been doing).  If it is Rondo, great give him the ball, if it is someone else, give it to them.

The problem is in the sets.  We will see what Stevens comes up with but Doc's schemes tried Rondo in the corner, kind of behind the basket and a few other things.  Nothing worked.  It always came back to Rondo with the ball.

And there has been a lot of talk about assist percentage.  I don't think it is a good thing when one player gets a high percentage of the assists.  I would rather see balance.  I bet if you checked San Antonio, Miami, and Indiana, there isn't one player "hogging" all the assists.

  I don't think that one player "hogging" all the assists is really a problem. I'm sure it would be extremely rare for one player to get even half a team's assists. But even still, I don't see why you'd be opposed to having the best passers make the most passes. Do you feel that way about other things as well? Should teams spread out their scoring instead of letting a few players "hog" all the shots? How about rebounding?

  It's worth pointing out that assists are a good thing because assisted scoring attempts (shots) are generally more successful than unassisted shots. I mention this because the Celtics are getting assists on half of their made baskets this year. There are some bad teams this year so there are 2 teams with a lower percentage of their baskets assisted. Beyond that, there were only 4 teams in the last 10 years with a smaller percentage of their baskets assisted than what we have now.

  A team that has a smaller percentage of it's made baskets assisted than about 98% of the teams in the last 10 years getting back a player who's led the league in assists the last 2 seasons seems like a match made in heaven, yet you seem to be concerned that the player will be "hogging" the assists. That seems like a "cut off your nose to spite your face" way of looking at things.

Re: If rondo comesback and we start losing
« Reply #96 on: December 11, 2013, 12:39:27 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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  I don't think that one player "hogging" all the assists is really a problem. I'm sure it would be extremely rare for one player to get even half a team's assists. But even still, I don't see why you'd be opposed to having the best passers make the most passes. Do you feel that way about other things as well? Should teams spread out their scoring instead of letting a few players "hog" all the shots? How about rebounding?

  It's worth pointing out that assists are a good thing because assisted scoring attempts (shots) are generally more successful than unassisted shots. I mention this because the Celtics are getting assists on half of their made baskets this year. There are some bad teams this year so there are 2 teams with a lower percentage of their baskets assisted. Beyond that, there were only 4 teams in the last 10 years with a smaller percentage of their baskets assisted than what we have now.

  A team that has a smaller percentage of it's made baskets assisted than about 98% of the teams in the last 10 years getting back a player who's led the league in assists the last 2 seasons seems like a match made in heaven, yet you seem to be concerned that the player will be "hogging" the assists. That seems like a "cut off your nose to spite your face" way of looking at things.

Actually yes, I do feel it is better to have balanced scoring, rebounding, defense, you name it over a unbalanced distribution.  Remember, the Celtics got more team assists in 2012-2013 and 2011-2012 when Rondo was out for extended period due to injury.  This covers the period where he set the record for most double figure assists or whatever it was.

For example, San Antonio, Parker averages about 6 assists for his career, Ginobili averages 4 assist.  I think it is better to have 2 good passers sharing the assists vs. just one guy getting 10 assists.  Balance is harder to defend.  Same for scoring.  Parker averages (career) 17 points, Ginobili 15 points. That is better than one guy getting 25 and the other getting 8.

Rondo gets assists because he has great court awareness and is a great passer.  He also gets assists because he often chooses not to shoot or because he holds the ball.  A more balanced Rondo would be better for the team overall.  Rondo needs to move the ball more rather than trying to always hold for the perfect pass.  He needs a more reliable shot so he will be more confident to shoot when there is a shot.  He also needs to keep doing all of the many good things that he can do.  That is how Rondo will make the team better (vs. piling up gaudy stats).

Re: If rondo comesback and we start losing
« Reply #97 on: December 11, 2013, 04:42:30 PM »

Offline BballTim

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  I don't think that one player "hogging" all the assists is really a problem. I'm sure it would be extremely rare for one player to get even half a team's assists. But even still, I don't see why you'd be opposed to having the best passers make the most passes. Do you feel that way about other things as well? Should teams spread out their scoring instead of letting a few players "hog" all the shots? How about rebounding?

  It's worth pointing out that assists are a good thing because assisted scoring attempts (shots) are generally more successful than unassisted shots. I mention this because the Celtics are getting assists on half of their made baskets this year. There are some bad teams this year so there are 2 teams with a lower percentage of their baskets assisted. Beyond that, there were only 4 teams in the last 10 years with a smaller percentage of their baskets assisted than what we have now.

  A team that has a smaller percentage of it's made baskets assisted than about 98% of the teams in the last 10 years getting back a player who's led the league in assists the last 2 seasons seems like a match made in heaven, yet you seem to be concerned that the player will be "hogging" the assists. That seems like a "cut off your nose to spite your face" way of looking at things.

Actually yes, I do feel it is better to have balanced scoring, rebounding, defense, you name it over a unbalanced distribution.  Remember, the Celtics got more team assists in 2012-2013 and 2011-2012 when Rondo was out for extended period due to injury.  This covers the period where he set the record for most double figure assists or whatever it was.

  If you look at assists/48, in 10-11 we got 6.6 fewer assists with Rondo on the bench, 8.4 fewer in the playoffs, 4.8 fewer in the 11-12 season, 5.3 fewer in the 12 playoffs and 2 fewer in the 12-13 season. It's not true that we got more assists in 11-12 when Rondo was out for extended games due to injury. It's not true that we got more assists in 12-13 after Rondo's knee injury. When he left the lineup we were averaging 23 apg, when the season ended we were averaging 22.3. That's about 1.5 fewer apg without Rondo.

For example, San Antonio, Parker averages about 6 assists for his career, Ginobili averages 4 assist.  I think it is better to have 2 good passers sharing the assists vs. just one guy getting 10 assists.  Balance is harder to defend.  Same for scoring.  Parker averages (career) 17 points, Ginobili 15 points. That is better than one guy getting 25 and the other getting 8.

  Parker isn't a particularly good distributor. That's not the best example. What about teams with point guards like Magic, Isiah, Stockton, Nash or Paul? Would all of those teams be better off if those players got fewer assists?

Rondo gets assists because he has great court awareness and is a great passer.  He also gets assists because he often chooses not to shoot or because he holds the ball.  A more balanced Rondo would be better for the team overall.  Rondo needs to move the ball more rather than trying to always hold for the perfect pass.  He needs a more reliable shot so he will be more confident to shoot when there is a shot.  He also needs to keep doing all of the many good things that he can do.  That is how Rondo will make the team better (vs. piling up gaudy stats).

  "hold for the perfect pass" = "try and create a good scoring opportunity for someone on the team". But beyond that, Rondo does have a fairly reliable jumper and does take that shot. He doesn't take a lot of threes but the number of jumpers he takes is probably close to league average. But whether that makes the team better is debatable. We score more efficiently when he piles up gaudy stats than we do when he takes those outside shots, even if he hits them reliably. Taking more inefficient shots and fewer efficient shots isn't really the best way to make a team better.

Re: If rondo comesback and we start losing
« Reply #98 on: December 11, 2013, 05:04:37 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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And there has been a lot of talk about assist percentage.  I don't think it is a good thing when one player gets a high percentage of the assists.  I would rather see balance.  I bet if you checked San Antonio, Miami, and Indiana, there isn't one player "hogging" all the assists.

Last season, Tony Parker was 4th in the NBA with a 40.4 assist %.

Players in the three-point era who have had an assist percentage of 45% or higher in 2000+ minutes in a season: Mark Jackson, Magic Johnson, Andre Miller, Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Rajon Rondo, John Stockdon, Isiah Thomas, Deron Williams.
Not sure what it entails for the teams they're on, though. Nash, Stockton, and Paul haven't won titles so far despite being very  good players.
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Re: If rondo comesback and we start losing
« Reply #99 on: December 11, 2013, 06:28:39 PM »

Offline sunnyd656

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START? losing?
  Every year there are 6-7 teams with a lower winning percentage than our current record. I think we've gotten so used to ignoring the bottom feeders since 2008 that we've forgotten how bad some teams are.

Re: If rondo comesback and we start losing
« Reply #100 on: December 11, 2013, 06:36:40 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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START? losing?

and let me award you your first tp for your concise, yet cutting, quip. welcome to cb sunnyd....

and by the way, is that the drink?
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