Author Topic: Shav Gone. Is Wilcox next?  (Read 10509 times)

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Re: Shav Gone. Is Wilcox next?
« Reply #30 on: August 02, 2013, 04:59:48 AM »

Offline LatterDayCelticsfan

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If el Hombre indestructible is more indestructible than Chris Wilcox, then we will be fine without him.
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Re: Shav Gone. Is Wilcox next?
« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2013, 05:01:23 AM »

Offline LooseCannon

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If el Hombre indestructible is more indestructible than Chris Wilcox, then we will be fine without him.

A Ford Pinto is more indestructible than Chris Wilcox.
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Re: Shav Gone. Is Wilcox next?
« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2013, 06:07:29 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I seriously doubt Wilcox will be back.

Since he's been with us he's been (statistically) a big plus on the offensive end of the floor, but he's been an equally huge minus on the defensive end of the floor.

In 2001-2002 it didn't matter as much because he was doing a pretty good job on the boards, but last year his rebounding was just as mediocre as his defense. That meant the only thing he really gave us was the occasional lob and the odd put-back shot and that's really about it. 

I really like his attitude and his work ethic, but aside from Fab Melo pretty much every big on this team is better than Wilcox.  In fact even Shav was much better than Wilcox was last season, and the fact that he just got cut pretty much tells you all you need to know about the chance of Wilcox returning...

Oh another thing is that Wilcox has been in and out of injury ever since he's been here.  Boston lost two potential titles and an unquantifiable number of wins over the big 3 era due to untimely injuries (especially to big men).  I think DA will want to stick to younger guys to keep the injury risk down, and I just don't see someone like Wilcox being in the plans.

Anyhow as I said Kris Humphries, Jared Sullinger and Brandon Bass are all better than Wilcox at this point in their careers, so I see prescious little reason for holding on to him unless he's on the roster as a 3rd string center or pure injury replacement.

Re: Shav Gone. Is Wilcox next?
« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2013, 09:02:04 AM »

Offline Mattson

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Funny, I almost always forget about Cox. I like him. I doubt he stays anyway.
There's a really good joke in here, but I'm not going to touch it. ;D

Not touching Cox, eh?
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Re: Shav Gone. Is Wilcox next?
« Reply #34 on: August 02, 2013, 09:20:19 AM »

Offline Mattson

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And yes, I do believe Wilcox will be gone. He is in the D-West/Marquis Daniels class for me: great to have had him, but there is no place on our roster for them at this stage in their perspective careers.
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Re: Shav Gone. Is Wilcox next?
« Reply #35 on: August 02, 2013, 10:05:05 AM »

Offline slamtheking

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I hadn't realized people thought Wilcox was still in the roster equation.  we've got a full roster without him.  I think he's fine as a 3rd string center on a team that's trying to contend but that's no longer what we are. 

send him on his way and wish him the best

Re: Shav Gone. Is Wilcox next?
« Reply #36 on: August 02, 2013, 11:11:59 AM »

Offline droopdog7

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I really think what we see is what we will get for most of this year. once things start sorting themselves out during the season and the Celtics see if Wallace, Humphries and Bass are playing well enough to attract a possible contender looking to beef up due to injuries or lack of player performance, then I think trades will happen. Until then,

Ladies and Gentlemen, your 2013-14 Boston Celtics

Rondo/Pressey
Bradley/Lee/Bogans/Crawford/Brooks
Green/Wallace
Bass/Sullinger/Humphries/Olynyk
Faverani/Melo

Pretty much.
The only question is whether the Cs need to shed a bit more salary to get under. Not sure if the Shav cut got them far enough...
They do need to cut a bit more but could do that mid season. I think a likely scenario would be a contender having an injury and needing a PF or SG and the C's moving Bass and/or Lee.

For instance, if Boozer went down in Chicago and Rose was completely healthy, a Bass and Pressey for Hinrich and Teague trade works. C's save $2 million this year and dump Bass' $6.9 million owed next year.

Another possibility is perhaps Mike Miller is so hurt he can't play for Memphis and so a very good Memphis team decides it needs a SG who can hit the three. A Lee/Pressey for Bayless/Wroten trade works and the C's cut more salary to get under the tax and again save some long term money.

Not saying these things will happen but something like this is what I see playing out.

A simple Jordan Crawfish for a late 2nd rounder works too.

Cutting Shav was sensible.
I am sure if danny could have found a team with cap space to move Crawford's $2 million contract, he would have done so already. The more likely scenario is a mid season trade where a contender needs a piece and is willing to take on salary and maybe pay some tax money for a chance at a deep playoff run.

It all comes down to the other team having a need. No team that is currently under the cap needs Jordan Crawford, that is for sure.

What I mean is come deadline, Jordan Crawford could probably be moved quite easily.
Only to teams under the cap. Team over the cap have to send back a tax exception Crawford fits into or salary within 25% of Crawford's. That isn't going to be enough savings to get under the tax level. And the team is going to have to have a need at SG. If they have a need at SG my guess is almost every GM in the league would prefer Lee. And since Lee's salary is over $5 million, a trade him of Lee, for a player that would save the Celtics the over million dollars the C's need to lower their salary to get under the tax level, is doable and much more likely

My bad.

They could still trade for less salary right?
This is what people seem to be missing.  The only way we can trade someone and reduce salary is by trading to a team that has cap space or a trade exception.  Teams with cap space are generally not very good and would have no use for spare parts that we'd be trading.  Not sure about teams with trade exceptions but my guess is that they would be looking for more than someone like Jordan Crawford. 

So we have to take back at least 75% salary in a trade.  Not sure how much over the line we are, but we'd likely have to trade someone with a bigger contract to make that 25% enough of a savings to get under the line.

The other alternative would be to give up a pick for another team with space to absorb one of our guys.

Re: Shav Gone. Is Wilcox next?
« Reply #37 on: August 02, 2013, 02:47:04 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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A Ford Pinto is more indestructible than Chris Wilcox.
That is an awesome line. TP.

Re: Shav Gone. Is Wilcox next?
« Reply #38 on: August 02, 2013, 04:44:19 PM »

Offline JHTruth

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Gosh all of Hump/Wallace/Wilcox/Bass whatever are on the next train Danny can get them on I'm sure. It's just a tough path to acheiving that now. Taking back even worse deals isn't going to achieve much in the way of clearing space and being bad enough to get a good pick.

But should the opportunity arise...

Re: Shav Gone. Is Wilcox next?
« Reply #39 on: August 02, 2013, 05:39:29 PM »

Offline the_Bird

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In my opinion, Shav is gone temporarily.

If Ainge guaranteed him, that weakens his bargaining position with other GMs in that they know Danny HAS to dump people for pennies on the dollar and also maybe having to give up a pick.

I'll bet Shav has been given a "wink, wink" that he'll be back as soon as they dump some of the deadweight. He's Ainge's type of player.

Shav isn't good enough for a wink-wink deal, but if Danny does manage to clean up the back end of the roster it wouldn't be inconceivable to see Shav brought back.  I wonder, though, if they might be looking for point guards in that situation; if Rondo's not ready to go on Game 1, are you really giving the keys to Pressey?

Re: Shav Gone. Is Wilcox next?
« Reply #40 on: August 02, 2013, 05:44:41 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I wonder, though, if they might be looking for point guards in that situation; if Rondo's not ready to go on Game 1, are you really giving the keys to Pressey?
If Rondo isn't ready to go, we're starting this regular season the way we ended the last -- with Bradley and Lee in the starting lineup.
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Re: Shav Gone. Is Wilcox next?
« Reply #41 on: August 02, 2013, 06:12:52 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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This is what people seem to be missing.  The only way we can trade someone and reduce salary is by trading to a team that has cap space or a trade exception.  Teams with cap space are generally not very good and would have no use for spare parts that we'd be trading.  Not sure about teams with trade exceptions but my guess is that they would be looking for more than someone like Jordan Crawford. 

So we have to take back at least 75% salary in a trade.  Not sure how much over the line we are, but we'd likely have to trade someone with a bigger contract to make that 25% enough of a savings to get under the line.

The other alternative would be to give up a pick for another team with space to absorb one of our guys.

Good points. 

One more consideration people have to keep in mind is that when you make a deal later in the year, the actual savings is the prorated difference in salaries through the remainder of the season.

Remember:  Your ultimate final cap number is the amount you end up actually paying out in player salaries by the end of the season (June 30).

For example, if we made a trade at exactly mid season sending Bass' 6.5M & Crawford's 2.1M & Fab's 1.1M contracts out (9.7M total) and took back a player or players making, say 7.275M (75%) that wouldn't actually save the contract difference of 2.425M.

That's because we would have already paid half of their contracts.  The savings is the difference in the half that still needs to be paid to them and the half of the new, cheaper contracts.  Or, half of the difference in the face value:  1.21M.

This is why, unloading salary now might be the better move.

Teams that are still well under the salary floor can take small contracts and dump them for you if you pay for it and give them incentive.

An example would be to send Crawford plus 2.1M cash AND a future 2nd round pick to Philly.   That completely removes his entire salary from the coming season's books.  They can keep him for free or waive him if they want.

The problem is, that still may not be enough savings.   Because while getting that 2.1M drops us below the tax threshold, it leaves an open roster spot dangling.  If you add even a minimum contract player to fill it (due to say, injury), you could end right back up over the tax line.

And we only have a 3.2M total cash allowance to send in such deals.   

So ... the BEST scenario might be for Danny to find a bigger deal still, now, before or early in the season.   If he can find an under-the-cap trading partner that would be ideal, and the deal wouldn't need to be quite so big.   If he has to deal with an over-the-cap team, then he needs a bigger deal in order to increase the difference in outgoing-incoming salaries, because the other team can only take a certain amount of salary more than they send us.  And, of course, 3 or even 4 team trades are always possible ...

Finally, just to bring all this back to Wilcox ...

Like most, I see no scenario where Wilcox ends up on the Celtics.  But the fact is we DO retain his Bird Rights.  And that means that he could still be potentially useful as a trade piece because he could be packaged for salary filler via sign & trade.  The same way Bogans was moved to us.

So there is still a chance he has a part to play.
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Re: Shav Gone. Is Wilcox next?
« Reply #42 on: August 02, 2013, 06:23:13 PM »

Offline ImShakHeIsShaq

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I just thought about this, as soon as a guy says they plan on being here they have been cut LOL. Shav, K Joseph, and TWill all said it. Wilcox is quiet, he may stick around haha.
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Re: Shav Gone. Is Wilcox next?
« Reply #43 on: August 02, 2013, 06:58:14 PM »

Offline the_Bird

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I wonder, though, if they might be looking for point guards in that situation; if Rondo's not ready to go on Game 1, are you really giving the keys to Pressey?
If Rondo isn't ready to go, we're starting this regular season the way we ended the last -- with Bradley and Lee in the starting lineup.

...  except that Lee is one of the most likely guys to go in any roster consolidation, I fear.  And, we saw that those two guys aren't good enough at the point.

They're at 15 now, right, with Iverson in Turkey and Shav gone?  If there's a 2-1 deal in the next few weeks, I believe Danny's at least going to think about another point guard.

Re: Shav Gone. Is Wilcox next?
« Reply #44 on: August 02, 2013, 11:12:17 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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One more consideration people have to keep in mind is that when you make a deal later in the year, the actual savings is the prorated difference in salaries through the remainder of the season.

Remember:  Your ultimate final cap number is the amount you end up actually paying out in player salaries by the end of the season (June 30).

For example, if we made a trade at exactly mid season sending Bass' 6.5M & Crawford's 2.1M & Fab's 1.1M contracts out (9.7M total) and took back a player or players making, say 7.275M (75%) that wouldn't actually save the contract difference of 2.425M.

That's because we would have already paid half of their contracts.  The savings is the difference in the half that still needs to be paid to them and the half of the new, cheaper contracts.  Or, half of the difference in the face value:  1.21M.

This is why, unloading salary now might be the better move.

This is actually not true. 

In calculating team payroll for the purpose of the salary cap and luxury tax, the full season salary of players acquired during the season is included while the full season salary of players traded away during the season is excluded. 

Your cap number is not calculated using prorated salaries.
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