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Culture of losing
« on: June 28, 2013, 10:17:38 AM »

Offline chrisa33321

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Hey Everyone,
 This is my first post ever so bare with me. I have been reading this blog for years but never really had any desire to pop my head up until now. First I want to say I really enjoy reading everyones perspective on here and I think you are all awesome and I so impressed with the Basketball knowledge you all posses, it's been a pleasure reading all your posts over the years.
 To give everyone a quick background before I make my points, I'm a 12 year season ticket holder in my mid 30's who has seen some great years and have suffered through the bad years also.
 The reason I decided to post was the frustration I am having with this talk of tanking and seeing how excited many people are with the prospect of having a terrible year. It basically is a losing mentality, winners don't strive to lose or be worse than the previous year, winners want to do the best they can and improve every year. I remember once hearing of a Red Auberbach story where they had mentioned tanking one year and to summarize I think his reply was "You always play to win", with an organization such as the Celtics I think you always play to wine and strive to be your best each and every game no matter what the circumstances, that's a culture of winning.
  The second concern I have is as a season ticket holder. Every year I spend thousands of dollars that I could be spending on other things on season tickets to see my beloved Celts. Like a good consumer I don't want to invest good money to see a garbage product, another problem I have with tanking and I am sure other season ticket holders can relate to this is that what if a few years down the road when they are good I am priced out of the season tickets for whatever reason. So in theory I could be forced to pay for the poor product and then when the product became decent again I could get forced it and get nothing for investing in the team when they weren't very good. So as somebody who is financially invested in the team in some sense I expect to see a quality product each and every game for my money.
   Finally I don't like reading about how some people are going to hope that the Celtics suck so they could possibly get a good draft pick and then say they will chear for the Celtics opponents because they have players on the team that used to play for the Celtics (ex: KG & Paul Pierce), if you are going to root for the Nets because they have Paul Pierce, then you are really a Paul Pierce fan and you are not a celtics fan, and maybe paulpierceblog.com instead of celticsblog.com might be a more appropriate place for you. If you are a Boston Celtics fan you route for the Boston Celtics first not for the individual players, otherwise you are a fan of the players and not of the team and the tradition that the team has in my opinion.
  In conclusion again I think you guys and gals are all awesome and I would love to hear your thoughts on the above.
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Re: Culture of losing
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2013, 10:22:40 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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We had a phenomenal thread on this very subject a few days ago.

Briefly summarizing my prior posts:

I've got no problem rooting for Pierce and KG on the Nets; I don't see the quandry between having players and teams you cheer for wearing different Uniforms. I've been a Carmelo fan since his year at Syracuse. I don't dig the Knicks, and I certainly won't cheer for Pierce or KG when they're playing the Celtics.

I don't hold season tickets. I certainly wouldn't pay eight grand, the figure that was quoted in the other thread, for this team as constructed right now. I rarely attend games--in fact I'm actually stoked that more games will be in my price range now, because they sure as hell weren't before.

I'm feeling pretty gutted by the trades, and I certainly don't see our roster as a winning roster. That said, there's a difference between a bad team competing hard and a tanking team. I can root for a bad team. It will be much harder to root for a tanking one.

Anyway, welcome to posting on CB! Unfortunate that you had to voice your opinion at such a hang-low moment.
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Re: Culture of losing
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2013, 10:23:59 AM »

Offline vinnie

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Do what I did. Give up your season tickets. It will be easy to get them again in three to four years.

As for the Nets, my hope is they win the championship and I will be cheering on The Captain and KG.
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Re: Culture of losing
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2013, 10:33:54 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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I've gotta be honest, I'm having a hard time feeling sorry for these folks who have the money to pay for season tickets.

Oh, you feel like you're going to have to spend your thousands of extra dollars somewhere else?  Guess you can watch on League Pass or CSNNE like the rest of us.

As to the culture of losing thing, I echo the sentiment of D.o.s. -- there's a difference between blatantly tanking and just putting a team out there that will try hard but doesn't have the pieces to win.  You can still develop young players and see some useful progress with the latter.  That's what I'm looking forward to.

You can have down years for the franchise and not have it become toxic and perpetuate itself.  You just need an ownership group, GM, and coach who are all on the same page and committed to the long term plan.
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Re: Culture of losing
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2013, 10:35:44 AM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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I'll let my girl Gloria explain the bigger idea behind the pro-tanking sentiment:

Quote
Sometimes when you win, you really lose, and sometimes when you lose, you really win, and sometimes when you win or lose, you actually tie, and sometimes when you tie, you actually win or lose. Winning or losing is all one organic mechanism, from which one extracts what one needs.

I'm not a big pro-tanking guy because it's very risky and miserable to watch, but always fighting to win a lot of small regular-season battles often adds up to one big loss for the franchise in the metagame of modern sports.

Winning is putting your team in a position to get titles.  If you can't get there by winning on the court, you've gotta try and find a way to win the off-court battles of positioning, salary flexibility, and future assets.  It's a crappy truth, but there it is. 
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Re: Culture of losing
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2013, 10:35:46 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Welcome to the board.

One note:

Quote
if you are going to root for the Nets because they have Paul Pierce, then you are really a Paul Pierce fan and you are not a celtics fan, and maybe paulpierceblog.com instead of celticsblog.com might be a more appropriate place for you. If you are a Boston Celtics fan you route for the Boston Celtics first not for the individual players, otherwise you are a fan of the players and not of the team and the tradition that the team has in my opinion.

Comments like this are not only not true, but they're against our rules.  You don't hold the monopoly on determining how a fan should root.
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Re: Culture of losing
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2013, 10:36:11 AM »

Offline Kuberski33

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The season prior to the KG trade I was told by a Celtics employee that they had the smallest season ticket base in the NBA.

I've always wondered how you jibe tanking with a business model that requires that you keep your fans interested.  Fans like those who post here realize what's going on and frankly why anyone would want to pay a lot of money to see a crappy NBA product on a regular basis....I just don't get that. 

But that's how you rebuild in today's NBA.  The media never talks about this because none of them actually buy tickets.
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Re: Culture of losing
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2013, 10:42:07 AM »

Offline chrisa33321

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Thanks for the great replies so far everyone. I regret writing the think about being a fan of the player vs the team, I shouldn't have used the word you because I think some people think I am trying to say people on here that would route for the players they love aren't just as much Celtics fans, thats why I tried to preface my post saying how awesome I think you guys all are, it was just for discussion, I should have worded it differently I didn't want it to come off as I was trying to tell people what kind of fans they should be, if you are on here putting all this great info on these forums you have to be a Celts fan. Well thanks again guys for some of the great replies and I look forward to reading more.
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Re: Culture of losing
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2013, 10:45:58 AM »

Offline Snakehead

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Quote from: chrisa33321 on June 28, 2013, 10:42:07 AM
Thanks for the great replies so far everyone. I regret writing the think about being a fan of the player vs the team, I shouldn't have used the word you because I think some people think I am trying to say people on here that would route for the players they love aren't just as much Celtics fans, thats why I tried to preface my post saying how awesome I think you guys all are, it was just for discussion, I should have worded it differently I didn't want it to come off as I was trying to tell people what kind of fans they should be, if you are on here putting all this great info on these forums you have to be a Celts fan. Well thanks again guys for some of the great replies and I look forward to reading more.

Support KG and Pierce.  For sure.  Don't listen to others that say you can't.

I mean I'm a LeBron fan as a Celtics fan.

As far as your culture of losing... it was going to happen anyways.  They would be done.  In some ways I would have been fine playing it out but might as well pull the band aid and start the rebuild faster.
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Re: Culture of losing
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2013, 10:46:51 AM »

Offline chrisa33321

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I totally agree with all you guys too that building through the draft in the NBA today seems like it's the way to go, it's just frustrating, and the argument about giving up the seats and then signing up again later, I have a few problems with this, number one I might not be able to get the similar seats when I resign up as a season ticket holder and number two if they are good I might end up paying significantly more than if I suffer through the bad years. However when the years are good they are pretty good.:)
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Re: Culture of losing
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2013, 10:49:52 AM »

Offline Snakehead

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Quote from: chrisa33321 on June 28, 2013, 10:46:51 AM
I totally agree with all you guys too that building through the draft in the NBA today seems like it's the way to go, it's just frustrating, and the argument about giving up the seats and then signing up again later, I have a few problems with this, number one I might not be able to get the similar seats when I resign up as a season ticket holder and number two if they are good I might end up paying significantly more than if I suffer through the bad years. However when the years are good they are pretty good.:)

The thing about it too is it's not just building through the draft really... the picks, the players you get through them, etc are all tradable.  We have pieces to pull off a deal like we did to get KG and Ray Allen now down the road.
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Re: Culture of losing
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2013, 10:52:29 AM »

Offline chrisa33321

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Thats what I am hoping, that with these pieces we see some new blockbuster trade, hopefully sooner rather than later.
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Re: Culture of losing
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2013, 11:03:12 AM »

Offline bdm860

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Quote from: fairweatherfan on June 28, 2013, 10:35:44 AM
I'll let my girl Gloria explain the bigger idea behind the pro-tanking sentiment:

Quote
Sometimes when you win, you really lose, and sometimes when you lose, you really win, and sometimes when you win or lose, you actually tie, and sometimes when you tie, you actually win or lose. Winning or losing is all one organic mechanism, from which one extracts what one needs.

You're gonna take advice from someone who thought Babe Ruth was the NBA's all time leading rebounder?   ;D

Listen fairweatherfan, if I'm thirsty, I don't want a glass of water, I want you to sympathize. I want you to say, "bdm, I too know what it feels like to be thirsty. I too have had a dry mouth." I want you to connect with me through sharing and understanding the concept of dry mouthedness.
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Re: Culture of losing
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2013, 11:07:21 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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Quote from: fairweatherfan on June 28, 2013, 10:35:44 AM
I'll let my girl Gloria explain the bigger idea behind the pro-tanking sentiment:

Quote
Sometimes when you win, you really lose, and sometimes when you lose, you really win, and sometimes when you win or lose, you actually tie, and sometimes when you tie, you actually win or lose. Winning or losing is all one organic mechanism, from which one extracts what one needs.

I'm not a big pro-tanking guy because it's very risky and miserable to watch, but always fighting to win a lot of small regular-season battles often adds up to one big loss for the franchise in the metagame of modern sports.

Winning is putting your team in a position to get titles.  If you can't get there by winning on the court, you've gotta try and find a way to win the off-court battles of positioning, salary flexibility, and future assets.  It's a crappy truth, but there it is.

Great post.
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Re: Culture of losing
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2013, 11:07:56 AM »

Offline muddy02

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I think when most people say they are rooting for a lousy season are fooling themselves.  I went to a few games during the 0-18 run back in 2007 and it's hard not to root for your team to win when you are watching them.  If they don't have the talent to compete next year than so be it, but i'll still be rooting for them, wearing my Ryan Gomes jersey.
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