How comfortable are you building around Rajon Rondo?

[LarBrd33]

Yeah, I agree with Yoki.

Danny is in a much better spot now then he was last time. With 5 first round draft picks and the players he has drafted certainly trump West, Gomes, Jefferson, and #5.

I'm certainly not saying we MUST build around Rondo and I would certainly move him in the right deal, but when people say we absolutely can't, I just don't buy it.

Those future draft picks might be huge.  We aren't going to really know until 2018.  Until then, those picks can easily end up being late 1st rounders.

I think some people are retroactively underestimating how huge of an asset Al Jefferson was.  WE know now that he never made an all-star team, but in 2007 he was 22 years old and coming off a season averaging 16 points, 11 boards and 1.5 blocks in 33 minutes.  Worst-case scenario he was a lock to be a 20 and 10 guy.  Best-case scenario, you were looking at someone that fans reasonably believed would battle Dwight Howard (and Greg Oden) as the three best bigs in the league.

There's nothin on this team even close to that.  We have Sullinger... who may or may not be a starter long-term.  His value is more Ryan Gomes than Al Jefferson. 

That said, our unprotected 2014 pick is easily the most valuable asset on this team.  It's likely top 8... which in this draft is better than the 2007 #5 pick. 

[KGs Knee]

By the way, I love your typo in the first sentences.  Or, was that a typo?

HAHA!

Totally a typo, but totally how I feel about many of our current players.  Rondo is really the only one I have any confidence in.

And to be on topic, I am totally comfortable moving forward with Rondo here for many years to come.  Getting him help may be tough unless one of our young players totally surprises me, or we get lucky and win the lottery.

[mmmmm]

Yeah, I agree with Yoki.

Danny is in a much better spot now then he was last time. With 5 first round draft picks and the players he has drafted certainly trump West, Gomes, Jefferson, and #5.

I'm certainly not saying we MUST build around Rondo and I would certainly move him in the right deal, but when people say we absolutely can't, I just don't buy it.

Those future draft picks might be huge.  We aren't going to really know until 2018.  Until then, those picks can easily end up being late 1st rounders.

I think some people are retroactively underestimating how huge of an asset Al Jefferson was.  WE know now that he never made an all-star team, but in 2007 he was 22 years old and coming off a season averaging 16 points, 11 boards and 1.5 blocks in 33 minutes.  Worst-case scenario he was a lock to be a 20 and 10 guy.  Best-case scenario, you were looking at someone that fans reasonably believed would battle Dwight Howard (and Greg Oden) as the three best bigs in the league.

There's nothin on this team even close to that.  We have Sullinger... who may or may not be a starter long-term.  His value is more Ryan Gomes than Al Jefferson. 

That said, our unprotected 2014 pick is easily the most valuable asset on this team.  It's likely top 8... which in this draft is better than the 2007 #5 pick.

I think some people are retroactively _over_ estimating how huge of an asset Al Jefferson was.

At this same relative point, the beginning of the 2006-2007 season, Jefferson hadn't really done all that much.   He had played almost exclusive off the bench his both his first two seasons to that point, barely totaling a hair over 1000 minutes in each.    He average 6.7 pts and 4.4 reg in just under 15 minutes his first year and 7.9 points and 5.1 reg in 18 mpg his second year.  And the latter was on a 33-win team.

That's not knocking the socks off anyone.

Just for comparison, Sully in his rookie season manage 'only' 892 minutes ... but in just over half a season.  He would have blown past the 1000 minute mark if not for the back injury (at the rate he was getting minutes at the end, he would have passed that in just 4-5 more games).   Sully scored slightly less than Al's rookie year, at just 6.0 points per game, but grabbed 5.8 TRB per game in 19.8 mpg.  He also won the starting position on a team that was a playoff team fighting for a seed.

When you look at rates and efficiencies, Sullinger scored a slightly lesser rate than Al did but has posted slightly better rebounding numbers and is a much better defensive player already.   Al got much higher USG% rate while he was on the floor (21%) compared to Sully never getting hardly any plays called for him (14%) so it's not really much of a surprise that Al would have posted higher scoring rates.  That also leads to Al having a higher PER (16.6 his rookie year compared to 13.5 for Sully).  But Sully gets the edge in so many other categories and comes out ahead in WS/48 at .146 vs .123 for Al.

Basically, Big Al got to play a lot of minutes (33.6 mpg) his 3rd year on a terrible team and with no Pierce and no Tony Allen, got very high utilization, which really showcased his apparent value.

But he hadn't even done _that_, yet, at this point at the start of the 2006-07 season.

Al was a 15th pick.

If not for his back issues, there is no doubt in my mind that Sullinger would have been a top 10 draft pick.  He was extremely highly rated for two different draft years, ranging in mocks between #2 and #7.  He never fell out of that range until the back issues became a thing right before the 2012 draft.   And based on the rates and efficiencies at which Sully performed at last year he validated those high rankings by being right up there with Davis and Drummon as the three clear-and-away best 3 big men in that rookie class.

In my opinion, he was already clearly a better overall basketball player last January than Big Al has become even now.

Certainly, Sully's current value is similarly suppressed by concerns about how well he will come back from the surgery.  But if he does, there is no reason to think that he won't prove to be at least as valuable as Al proved to be _after_ the 2006-07 season. 

[LarBrd33]

Yeah, I agree with Yoki.

Danny is in a much better spot now then he was last time. With 5 first round draft picks and the players he has drafted certainly trump West, Gomes, Jefferson, and #5.

I'm certainly not saying we MUST build around Rondo and I would certainly move him in the right deal, but when people say we absolutely can't, I just don't buy it.

Those future draft picks might be huge.  We aren't going to really know until 2018.  Until then, those picks can easily end up being late 1st rounders.

I think some people are retroactively underestimating how huge of an asset Al Jefferson was.  WE know now that he never made an all-star team, but in 2007 he was 22 years old and coming off a season averaging 16 points, 11 boards and 1.5 blocks in 33 minutes.  Worst-case scenario he was a lock to be a 20 and 10 guy.  Best-case scenario, you were looking at someone that fans reasonably believed would battle Dwight Howard (and Greg Oden) as the three best bigs in the league.

There's nothin on this team even close to that.  We have Sullinger... who may or may not be a starter long-term.  His value is more Ryan Gomes than Al Jefferson. 

That said, our unprotected 2014 pick is easily the most valuable asset on this team.  It's likely top 8... which in this draft is better than the 2007 #5 pick.

I think some people are retroactively _over_ estimating how huge of an asset Al Jefferson was.

At this same relative point, the beginning of the 2006-2007 season, Jefferson hadn't really done all that much.   He had played almost exclusive off the bench his both his first two seasons to that point, barely totaling a hair over 1000 minutes in each.    He average 6.7 pts and 4.4 reg in just under 15 minutes his first year and 7.9 points and 5.1 reg in 18 mpg his second year.  And the latter was on a 33-win team.

That's not knocking the socks off anyone.

Just for comparison, Sully in his rookie season manage 'only' 892 minutes ... but in just over half a season.  He would have blown past the 1000 minute mark if not for the back injury (at the rate he was getting minutes at the end, he would have passed that in just 4-5 more games).   Sully scored slightly less than Al's rookie year, at just 6.0 points per game, but grabbed 5.8 TRB per game in 19.8 mpg.  He also won the starting position on a team that was a playoff team fighting for a seed.

When you look at rates and efficiencies, Sullinger scored a slightly lesser rate than Al did but has posted slightly better rebounding numbers and is a much better defensive player already.   Al got much higher USG% rate while he was on the floor (21%) compared to Sully never getting hardly any plays called for him (14%) so it's not really much of a surprise that Al would have posted higher scoring rates.  That also leads to Al having a higher PER (16.6 his rookie year compared to 13.5 for Sully).  But Sully gets the edge in so many other categories and comes out ahead in WS/48 at .146 vs .123 for Al.

Basically, Big Al got to play a lot of minutes (33.6 mpg) his 3rd year on a terrible team and with no Pierce and no Tony Allen, got very high utilization, which really showcased his apparent value.

But he hadn't even done _that_, yet, at this point at the start of the 2006-07 season.

Al was a 15th pick.

If not for his back issues, there is no doubt in my mind that Sullinger would have been a top 10 draft pick.  He was extremely highly rated for two different draft years, ranging in mocks between #2 and #7.  He never fell out of that range until the back issues became a thing right before the 2012 draft.   And based on the rates and efficiencies at which Sully performed at last year he validated those high rankings by being right up there with Davis and Drummon as the three clear-and-away best 3 big men in that rookie class.

In my opinion, he was already clearly a better overall basketball player last January than Big Al has become even now.

Certainly, Sully's current value is similarly suppressed by concerns about how well he will come back from the surgery.  But if he does, there is no reason to think that he won't prove to be at least as valuable as Al proved to be _after_ the 2006-07 season.

mmmmm, I hope you're right about Sully.  I'm not currently impressed with him at all.  Watching him this preseason he looked like a unathletic fat bench warmer.  Hopefully he improves.

Big Al was a player many thought had the best post moves in the game.  Dude had huge potential.  He was a lock to be a 20 and 10 player... and he became a 20 and 10 player.

Sully isn't a lock to be a 20 and 10 player.  If you're comparing Sully to 2005 Big Al, fine... but 2013 Sully at the moment is nowhere close to having the trade value as Big Al after averaging 16, 11 and 1.5.  Nowhere close.  Big Al in 2007 was a better prospect than either DeMarcus Cousins or Greg Monroe is today. 

Compare the 22 year olds:

2007 Big Al:  16 points, 11 rebounds, 1.5 blocks 51% shooting 33 minutes
2012 Greg Monroe:  16 points, 10 rebounds, 0.7 blocks 49% shooting 33 minutes
2012 Cousins:  17 points, 10 rebounds, 0.7 blocks 46% shooting 30 minutes

Sure maybe in a couple years Sully puts up those kind of numbers, but nobody around the league is expecting it.  Right now he has nowhere near that level of trade value.

[BballTim]

Very comfortable.

Why wouldn't I want to build around an All Star? Rondo just needs three things IMO to have a perfect team.

1.) A big (PF or C) who can hit midrange jumpers to play pick and pop with.

2.) A scoring wing. A guy who can create his own shots once the offense breaks down and who can shoot jumpers at a decent rate.

3.) A shooting wing who can park outside and hit threes consistently and if we're lucky, efficiently.

Give Rondo an open court to work with and a guy who can carry the offensive load with him, you have a great team that jells well. Of course it helps more if those three can do more things, such as defend, rebound at a high rate and stuff, but I think that's how you rebuild around a PG who can easily get to the basket and find open looks for his teammates. And I think with the assets that we have, we can find those players.

Yeah, I agree with you Yoki. I think it can be done but its eerily similar how the players you said compare to this eras "big 3"

1) Outside PF/C who can hit mid-range jumpers: Kevin Garnett

2) A scoring wing: Paul Pierce

3) A shooting wing who can park outside: Ray Allen

Is this what we're use to seeing? Or what Rondo really needs to be effective?

Those 3 things are basically what every title team of the last 25 or so years has (not a Rondo type player for the record).

  I'd say that title teams with wing players like PP and Ray are more the exception than the rule. If you can't name a decent amount of title teams that don't fit that mold you're not trying very hard.

Miami - James or Wade (wing scorer), Bosh the big, Miller/Chalmers/Allen the shooters. 

Dallas - Dirk the big, Marion/Terry the wing scorer, Terry/Kidd the shooters

LA - Gasol/Bynum the big, Kobe the wing, Fisher/Farmar the shooters

Boston - KG the big, PP the wing, Allen the shooter

San An - Duncan the big, Ginobli the wing (Parker helped here as well), Parker/Finley/Bowen the shooters

Miami - Shaq the big, Wade the wing, Posey the shooter

San An - Duncan/Ginobli/Horry

Detroit - Wallace"s"/Hamilton/Billups

San An - Duncan/Ginobli/Jackson

LA - Shaq/Kobe/Horry, Fisher, Fox (and Richmond for the first one)

San An - Robinson or Duncan/Elliot/Elie and Jackson

Chicago - Kukoc/Jordan or Pippen/Kerr and Harper

Houston - Dream/Drexler/Horry, Cassel, Smith, and Elie (maxwell instead of Drexler for the first one)

Chicago - Grant/Jordan or Pippen/Armstrong and Paxson


Do I need to keep going?  Now sure all of these don't need to be HOFer's especially the shooters but you do really need the big man.

  No, that was enough to prove my point. You're talking about almost all title teams have players like Ray and PP and KG, when what you really meant was that all of those teams had players that either scored some or who's offense mainly consisted of jump shots, even if they averaged less than 10 ppg.

  If you tell people that you need a wing scorer at least as good as a past his prime Marion or a Vernon Maxwell and you need an outside shooting "wing" at least as good as Fisher or Farmar or Fox you'll just get shrugs and comments about how 95% of the teams in the league have players of that level. You're putting those players into certain categories based on your belief that those teams *must* have players that fit into those categories.

  I could claim (quite correctly) that Rondo's our primary ball-handler and the offense runs through him, and most title teams have players that fill that role. You could disagree and explain why you think Rondo's different from those players and not the same as them, but your stance wouldn't be any more or less correct than mine. You're just deciding whether you want to ignore the similarities or ignore the differences based on whether you want the player to fit into your "pattern" or not.

[BballTim]

Very comfortable.

Why wouldn't I want to build around an All Star? Rondo just needs three things IMO to have a perfect team.

1.) A big (PF or C) who can hit midrange jumpers to play pick and pop with.

2.) A scoring wing. A guy who can create his own shots once the offense breaks down and who can shoot jumpers at a decent rate.

3.) A shooting wing who can park outside and hit threes consistently and if we're lucky, efficiently.

Give Rondo an open court to work with and a guy who can carry the offensive load with him, you have a great team that jells well. Of course it helps more if those three can do more things, such as defend, rebound at a high rate and stuff, but I think that's how you rebuild around a PG who can easily get to the basket and find open looks for his teammates. And I think with the assets that we have, we can find those players.

Yeah, I agree with you Yoki. I think it can be done but its eerily similar how the players you said compare to this eras "big 3"

1) Outside PF/C who can hit mid-range jumpers: Kevin Garnett

2) A scoring wing: Paul Pierce

3) A shooting wing who can park outside: Ray Allen

Is this what we're use to seeing? Or what Rondo really needs to be effective?

Those 3 things are basically what every title team of the last 25 or so years has (not a Rondo type player for the record).

The question I have for Yoki and others like him and that is how do you go about acquiring those players with Rondo on the team?  That is why I am fully in the move Rondo camp, as I just don't see it as being possible in the next couple of seasons (which is when you have Rondo on the right side of 30 or at all since he can leave as a free agent in 2 seasons).

Don't we have about 4 first round picks in the next two years? A big expiring contract in Kris Humphries?

We have assets to land one or two of those guys. We also have young players who can very well develop into those players. Why do we have to move Rondo, who's an elite PG that not a lot of teams have. A player who showed he can take over games. We need to give him help, and we have assets to get him help (picks, expirings, Gerald Wallace, Jeff Green, young players with potential). It just makes it better if the players we acquire fits the style of helps Rondo maximize his skills.

If you think it can't be done in two seasons, then I disagree and think you're selling Danny Ainge GM abilities short. He turned the Celtics into champions in 2008 in one fell swoop with assets like what we have. I don't see why he cant do it again.

We had significantly better assets in 2007 and we also had a significantly better building block in Pierce.

I agree with this. And also... we're basically at the ground level of a rebuild.  We aren't comparing 2007 to 2013.  If anything we're comparing 2003 to 2013.   In 2003 when Ainge took over, he dumped Walker and started collecting assets.  Pierce was only 25.   Over the course of the next 5 years, Ainge collected assets and built around his young star... eventually pushing all of his chips in on KG and Ray. 

  Take away all of our extra draft picks and get rid of all the players under 25 that aren't any better than JR Bremer we'd be in the same spot we were in 2003. Obviously we're much farther along than that.

[Moranis]

Very comfortable.

Why wouldn't I want to build around an All Star? Rondo just needs three things IMO to have a perfect team.

1.) A big (PF or C) who can hit midrange jumpers to play pick and pop with.

2.) A scoring wing. A guy who can create his own shots once the offense breaks down and who can shoot jumpers at a decent rate.

3.) A shooting wing who can park outside and hit threes consistently and if we're lucky, efficiently.

Give Rondo an open court to work with and a guy who can carry the offensive load with him, you have a great team that jells well. Of course it helps more if those three can do more things, such as defend, rebound at a high rate and stuff, but I think that's how you rebuild around a PG who can easily get to the basket and find open looks for his teammates. And I think with the assets that we have, we can find those players.

Yeah, I agree with you Yoki. I think it can be done but its eerily similar how the players you said compare to this eras "big 3"

1) Outside PF/C who can hit mid-range jumpers: Kevin Garnett

2) A scoring wing: Paul Pierce

3) A shooting wing who can park outside: Ray Allen

Is this what we're use to seeing? Or what Rondo really needs to be effective?

Those 3 things are basically what every title team of the last 25 or so years has (not a Rondo type player for the record).

The question I have for Yoki and others like him and that is how do you go about acquiring those players with Rondo on the team?  That is why I am fully in the move Rondo camp, as I just don't see it as being possible in the next couple of seasons (which is when you have Rondo on the right side of 30 or at all since he can leave as a free agent in 2 seasons).

Don't we have about 4 first round picks in the next two years? A big expiring contract in Kris Humphries?

We have assets to land one or two of those guys. We also have young players who can very well develop into those players. Why do we have to move Rondo, who's an elite PG that not a lot of teams have. A player who showed he can take over games. We need to give him help, and we have assets to get him help (picks, expirings, Gerald Wallace, Jeff Green, young players with potential). It just makes it better if the players we acquire fits the style of helps Rondo maximize his skills.

If you think it can't be done in two seasons, then I disagree and think you're selling Danny Ainge GM abilities short. He turned the Celtics into champions in 2008 in one fell swoop with assets like what we have. I don't see why he cant do it again.

We had significantly better assets in 2007 and we also had a significantly better building block in Pierce.

I agree with this. And also... we're basically at the ground level of a rebuild.  We aren't comparing 2007 to 2013.  If anything we're comparing 2003 to 2013.   In 2003 when Ainge took over, he dumped Walker and started collecting assets.  Pierce was only 25.   Over the course of the next 5 years, Ainge collected assets and built around his young star... eventually pushing all of his chips in on KG and Ray. 

  Take away all of our extra draft picks and get rid of all the players under 25 that aren't any better than JR Bremer we'd be in the same spot we were in 2003. Obviously we're much farther along than that.

Yeah we are pretty much 2004 after Ainge came in and moved Walker and others and added a bunch of young players and an extra pick or two (Davis, Banks, Perkins, Brown, Welsh, Mihm, Hunter).  Of course we still don't have a 26 yr old Paul Pierce on the team.

[Celtics18]

Talk all you want about Rondo needing Pierce, Garnett, and Allen to be a successful player, but looking at the 2013-2014 Boston Celtics, I can't imagine a team looking more in need of Rajon Rondo out there.

Put him out there with this group, and I think that all of a sudden we'd look like a pretty good team.

[BballTim]

Very comfortable.

Why wouldn't I want to build around an All Star? Rondo just needs three things IMO to have a perfect team.

1.) A big (PF or C) who can hit midrange jumpers to play pick and pop with.

2.) A scoring wing. A guy who can create his own shots once the offense breaks down and who can shoot jumpers at a decent rate.

3.) A shooting wing who can park outside and hit threes consistently and if we're lucky, efficiently.

Give Rondo an open court to work with and a guy who can carry the offensive load with him, you have a great team that jells well. Of course it helps more if those three can do more things, such as defend, rebound at a high rate and stuff, but I think that's how you rebuild around a PG who can easily get to the basket and find open looks for his teammates. And I think with the assets that we have, we can find those players.

Yeah, I agree with you Yoki. I think it can be done but its eerily similar how the players you said compare to this eras "big 3"

1) Outside PF/C who can hit mid-range jumpers: Kevin Garnett

2) A scoring wing: Paul Pierce

3) A shooting wing who can park outside: Ray Allen

Is this what we're use to seeing? Or what Rondo really needs to be effective?

Those 3 things are basically what every title team of the last 25 or so years has (not a Rondo type player for the record).

The question I have for Yoki and others like him and that is how do you go about acquiring those players with Rondo on the team?  That is why I am fully in the move Rondo camp, as I just don't see it as being possible in the next couple of seasons (which is when you have Rondo on the right side of 30 or at all since he can leave as a free agent in 2 seasons).

Don't we have about 4 first round picks in the next two years? A big expiring contract in Kris Humphries?

We have assets to land one or two of those guys. We also have young players who can very well develop into those players. Why do we have to move Rondo, who's an elite PG that not a lot of teams have. A player who showed he can take over games. We need to give him help, and we have assets to get him help (picks, expirings, Gerald Wallace, Jeff Green, young players with potential). It just makes it better if the players we acquire fits the style of helps Rondo maximize his skills.

If you think it can't be done in two seasons, then I disagree and think you're selling Danny Ainge GM abilities short. He turned the Celtics into champions in 2008 in one fell swoop with assets like what we have. I don't see why he cant do it again.

We had significantly better assets in 2007 and we also had a significantly better building block in Pierce.

I agree with this. And also... we're basically at the ground level of a rebuild.  We aren't comparing 2007 to 2013.  If anything we're comparing 2003 to 2013.   In 2003 when Ainge took over, he dumped Walker and started collecting assets.  Pierce was only 25.   Over the course of the next 5 years, Ainge collected assets and built around his young star... eventually pushing all of his chips in on KG and Ray. 

  Take away all of our extra draft picks and get rid of all the players under 25 that aren't any better than JR Bremer we'd be in the same spot we were in 2003. Obviously we're much farther along than that.

Yeah we are pretty much 2004 after Ainge came in and moved Walker and others and added a bunch of young players and an extra pick or two (Davis, Banks, Perkins, Brown, Welsh, Mihm, Hunter).  Of course we still don't have a 26 yr old Paul Pierce on the team.

  We're probably a year or two ahead of that. Clearly you don't see why what Rondo does for a team is as valuable as scoring, but if you compare Paul's career achievements to Rondo's (both up to the age Rondo was in 11/12 before the knee injury) it's not hard to notice the scales probably tilt in Rondo's favor.

[Moranis]

Very comfortable.

Why wouldn't I want to build around an All Star? Rondo just needs three things IMO to have a perfect team.

1.) A big (PF or C) who can hit midrange jumpers to play pick and pop with.

2.) A scoring wing. A guy who can create his own shots once the offense breaks down and who can shoot jumpers at a decent rate.

3.) A shooting wing who can park outside and hit threes consistently and if we're lucky, efficiently.

Give Rondo an open court to work with and a guy who can carry the offensive load with him, you have a great team that jells well. Of course it helps more if those three can do more things, such as defend, rebound at a high rate and stuff, but I think that's how you rebuild around a PG who can easily get to the basket and find open looks for his teammates. And I think with the assets that we have, we can find those players.

Yeah, I agree with you Yoki. I think it can be done but its eerily similar how the players you said compare to this eras "big 3"

1) Outside PF/C who can hit mid-range jumpers: Kevin Garnett

2) A scoring wing: Paul Pierce

3) A shooting wing who can park outside: Ray Allen

Is this what we're use to seeing? Or what Rondo really needs to be effective?

Those 3 things are basically what every title team of the last 25 or so years has (not a Rondo type player for the record).

The question I have for Yoki and others like him and that is how do you go about acquiring those players with Rondo on the team?  That is why I am fully in the move Rondo camp, as I just don't see it as being possible in the next couple of seasons (which is when you have Rondo on the right side of 30 or at all since he can leave as a free agent in 2 seasons).

Don't we have about 4 first round picks in the next two years? A big expiring contract in Kris Humphries?

We have assets to land one or two of those guys. We also have young players who can very well develop into those players. Why do we have to move Rondo, who's an elite PG that not a lot of teams have. A player who showed he can take over games. We need to give him help, and we have assets to get him help (picks, expirings, Gerald Wallace, Jeff Green, young players with potential). It just makes it better if the players we acquire fits the style of helps Rondo maximize his skills.

If you think it can't be done in two seasons, then I disagree and think you're selling Danny Ainge GM abilities short. He turned the Celtics into champions in 2008 in one fell swoop with assets like what we have. I don't see why he cant do it again.

We had significantly better assets in 2007 and we also had a significantly better building block in Pierce.

I agree with this. And also... we're basically at the ground level of a rebuild.  We aren't comparing 2007 to 2013.  If anything we're comparing 2003 to 2013.   In 2003 when Ainge took over, he dumped Walker and started collecting assets.  Pierce was only 25.   Over the course of the next 5 years, Ainge collected assets and built around his young star... eventually pushing all of his chips in on KG and Ray. 

  Take away all of our extra draft picks and get rid of all the players under 25 that aren't any better than JR Bremer we'd be in the same spot we were in 2003. Obviously we're much farther along than that.

Yeah we are pretty much 2004 after Ainge came in and moved Walker and others and added a bunch of young players and an extra pick or two (Davis, Banks, Perkins, Brown, Welsh, Mihm, Hunter).  Of course we still don't have a 26 yr old Paul Pierce on the team.

  We're probably a year or two ahead of that. Clearly you don't see why what Rondo does for a team is as valuable as scoring, but if you compare Paul's career achievements to Rondo's (both up to the age Rondo was in 11/12 before the knee injury) it's not hard to notice the scales probably tilt in Rondo's favor.

I wholly disagree with that contention.  Pierce in 2004 was a much better piece, had proven more than capable to be a #1 option on a playoff winning team, etc.  More so than Rondo (who I recognize has played very well at times in the playoffs but has never been a focal point of a team like Pierce had).  There is a difference between being an after thought on the offensive end (which really is what Rondo has been) and being the #1 guy that everyone on the other side focuses on.  That was Pierce. 

Pierce 02/03 playoff numbers were basically 27/9/7/2.  Not the most efficient scorer by any stretch, but a monster post-season for that second round team.  The year before that on the ECF team in his first playoffs Pierce was good as well at basically 24.5/8.5/4/2.  People always seem to forget that before Ainge the Celtics existed and Pierce has always been a monster, and not just in the playoffs but the regular season as well.

At that time, Pierce was a far better asset, building block, whatever you want to call it then Rondo has ever been or ever will be. 

[CFAN38]

mmmmm, I hope you're right about Sully.  I'm not currently impressed with him at all.  Watching him this preseason he looked like a unathletic fat bench warmer.  Hopefully he improves.

While not relevant to the Rondo subject I just wanted to add that I disagree with your view of Sully this preseason. I thought for a young player fresh off of back surgery who was way out of game shape he looked like our best player. Once he gets back to game shape he is definitely a starter in the NBA.   

[BballTim]

Very comfortable.

Why wouldn't I want to build around an All Star? Rondo just needs three things IMO to have a perfect team.

1.) A big (PF or C) who can hit midrange jumpers to play pick and pop with.

2.) A scoring wing. A guy who can create his own shots once the offense breaks down and who can shoot jumpers at a decent rate.

3.) A shooting wing who can park outside and hit threes consistently and if we're lucky, efficiently.

Give Rondo an open court to work with and a guy who can carry the offensive load with him, you have a great team that jells well. Of course it helps more if those three can do more things, such as defend, rebound at a high rate and stuff, but I think that's how you rebuild around a PG who can easily get to the basket and find open looks for his teammates. And I think with the assets that we have, we can find those players.

Yeah, I agree with you Yoki. I think it can be done but its eerily similar how the players you said compare to this eras "big 3"

1) Outside PF/C who can hit mid-range jumpers: Kevin Garnett

2) A scoring wing: Paul Pierce

3) A shooting wing who can park outside: Ray Allen

Is this what we're use to seeing? Or what Rondo really needs to be effective?

Those 3 things are basically what every title team of the last 25 or so years has (not a Rondo type player for the record).

The question I have for Yoki and others like him and that is how do you go about acquiring those players with Rondo on the team?  That is why I am fully in the move Rondo camp, as I just don't see it as being possible in the next couple of seasons (which is when you have Rondo on the right side of 30 or at all since he can leave as a free agent in 2 seasons).

Don't we have about 4 first round picks in the next two years? A big expiring contract in Kris Humphries?

We have assets to land one or two of those guys. We also have young players who can very well develop into those players. Why do we have to move Rondo, who's an elite PG that not a lot of teams have. A player who showed he can take over games. We need to give him help, and we have assets to get him help (picks, expirings, Gerald Wallace, Jeff Green, young players with potential). It just makes it better if the players we acquire fits the style of helps Rondo maximize his skills.

If you think it can't be done in two seasons, then I disagree and think you're selling Danny Ainge GM abilities short. He turned the Celtics into champions in 2008 in one fell swoop with assets like what we have. I don't see why he cant do it again.

We had significantly better assets in 2007 and we also had a significantly better building block in Pierce.

I agree with this. And also... we're basically at the ground level of a rebuild.  We aren't comparing 2007 to 2013.  If anything we're comparing 2003 to 2013.   In 2003 when Ainge took over, he dumped Walker and started collecting assets.  Pierce was only 25.   Over the course of the next 5 years, Ainge collected assets and built around his young star... eventually pushing all of his chips in on KG and Ray. 

  Take away all of our extra draft picks and get rid of all the players under 25 that aren't any better than JR Bremer we'd be in the same spot we were in 2003. Obviously we're much farther along than that.

Yeah we are pretty much 2004 after Ainge came in and moved Walker and others and added a bunch of young players and an extra pick or two (Davis, Banks, Perkins, Brown, Welsh, Mihm, Hunter).  Of course we still don't have a 26 yr old Paul Pierce on the team.

  We're probably a year or two ahead of that. Clearly you don't see why what Rondo does for a team is as valuable as scoring, but if you compare Paul's career achievements to Rondo's (both up to the age Rondo was in 11/12 before the knee injury) it's not hard to notice the scales probably tilt in Rondo's favor.

I wholly disagree with that contention.  Pierce in 2004 was a much better piece, had proven more than capable to be a #1 option on a playoff winning team, etc.  More so than Rondo (who I recognize has played very well at times in the playoffs but has never been a focal point of a team like Pierce had).  There is a difference between being an after thought on the offensive end (which really is what Rondo has been) and being the #1 guy that everyone on the other side focuses on.  That was Pierce. 

Pierce 02/03 playoff numbers were basically 27/9/7/2.  Not the most efficient scorer by any stretch, but a monster post-season for that second round team.  The year before that on the ECF team in his first playoffs Pierce was good as well at basically 24.5/8.5/4/2.  People always seem to forget that before Ainge the Celtics existed and Pierce has always been a monster, and not just in the playoffs but the regular season as well.

At that time, Pierce was a far better asset, building block, whatever you want to call it then Rondo has ever been or ever will be.

  We've been through many playoff series where the opposing coaches talked game after game about how they needed to find a way to stop Rondo, why they'd failed to contain him in the previous game and what changes they were making to their defense to slow him down going forward. Either you don't follow the team closely enough to know this or it somehow translates in your head to "Rondo's an after thought on offense". Go figure. And I haven't forgotten the way PP played in those playoffs, I just also remember things like Rondo scoring or assisting a higher percentage of his team's points than anyone else in the 2012 playoffs as well.


  And where's your evidence that PP was a far better asset than Rondo?

[D.o.s.]

Very comfortable.

Why wouldn't I want to build around an All Star? Rondo just needs three things IMO to have a perfect team.

1.) A big (PF or C) who can hit midrange jumpers to play pick and pop with.

2.) A scoring wing. A guy who can create his own shots once the offense breaks down and who can shoot jumpers at a decent rate.

3.) A shooting wing who can park outside and hit threes consistently and if we're lucky, efficiently.

Give Rondo an open court to work with and a guy who can carry the offensive load with him, you have a great team that jells well. Of course it helps more if those three can do more things, such as defend, rebound at a high rate and stuff, but I think that's how you rebuild around a PG who can easily get to the basket and find open looks for his teammates. And I think with the assets that we have, we can find those players.

Yeah, I agree with you Yoki. I think it can be done but its eerily similar how the players you said compare to this eras "big 3"

1) Outside PF/C who can hit mid-range jumpers: Kevin Garnett

2) A scoring wing: Paul Pierce

3) A shooting wing who can park outside: Ray Allen

Is this what we're use to seeing? Or what Rondo really needs to be effective?

Those 3 things are basically what every title team of the last 25 or so years has (not a Rondo type player for the record).

The question I have for Yoki and others like him and that is how do you go about acquiring those players with Rondo on the team?  That is why I am fully in the move Rondo camp, as I just don't see it as being possible in the next couple of seasons (which is when you have Rondo on the right side of 30 or at all since he can leave as a free agent in 2 seasons).

Don't we have about 4 first round picks in the next two years? A big expiring contract in Kris Humphries?

We have assets to land one or two of those guys. We also have young players who can very well develop into those players. Why do we have to move Rondo, who's an elite PG that not a lot of teams have. A player who showed he can take over games. We need to give him help, and we have assets to get him help (picks, expirings, Gerald Wallace, Jeff Green, young players with potential). It just makes it better if the players we acquire fits the style of helps Rondo maximize his skills.

If you think it can't be done in two seasons, then I disagree and think you're selling Danny Ainge GM abilities short. He turned the Celtics into champions in 2008 in one fell swoop with assets like what we have. I don't see why he cant do it again.

We had significantly better assets in 2007 and we also had a significantly better building block in Pierce.

I agree with this. And also... we're basically at the ground level of a rebuild.  We aren't comparing 2007 to 2013.  If anything we're comparing 2003 to 2013.   In 2003 when Ainge took over, he dumped Walker and started collecting assets.  Pierce was only 25.   Over the course of the next 5 years, Ainge collected assets and built around his young star... eventually pushing all of his chips in on KG and Ray. 

  Take away all of our extra draft picks and get rid of all the players under 25 that aren't any better than JR Bremer we'd be in the same spot we were in 2003. Obviously we're much farther along than that.

Yeah we are pretty much 2004 after Ainge came in and moved Walker and others and added a bunch of young players and an extra pick or two (Davis, Banks, Perkins, Brown, Welsh, Mihm, Hunter).  Of course we still don't have a 26 yr old Paul Pierce on the team.

  We're probably a year or two ahead of that. Clearly you don't see why what Rondo does for a team is as valuable as scoring, but if you compare Paul's career achievements to Rondo's (both up to the age Rondo was in 11/12 before the knee injury) it's not hard to notice the scales probably tilt in Rondo's favor.

I wholly disagree with that contention.  Pierce in 2004 was a much better piece, had proven more than capable to be a #1 option on a playoff winning team, etc.  More so than Rondo (who I recognize has played very well at times in the playoffs but has never been a focal point of a team like Pierce had).  There is a difference between being an after thought on the offensive end (which really is what Rondo has been) and being the #1 guy that everyone on the other side focuses on.  That was Pierce. 

Pierce 02/03 playoff numbers were basically 27/9/7/2.  Not the most efficient scorer by any stretch, but a monster post-season for that second round team.  The year before that on the ECF team in his first playoffs Pierce was good as well at basically 24.5/8.5/4/2.  People always seem to forget that before Ainge the Celtics existed and Pierce has always been a monster, and not just in the playoffs but the regular season as well.

At that time, Pierce was a far better asset, building block, whatever you want to call it then Rondo has ever been or ever will be.

  We've been through many playoff series where the opposing coaches talked game after game about how they needed to find a way to stop Rondo, why they'd failed to contain him in the previous game and what changes they were making to their defense to slow him down going forward. Either you don't follow the team closely enough to know this or it somehow translates in your head to "Rondo's an after thought on offense". Go figure. And I haven't forgotten the way PP played in those playoffs, I just also remember things like Rondo scoring or assisting a higher percentage of his team's points than anyone else in the 2012 playoffs as well.


  And where's your evidence that PP was a far better asset than Rondo?

It's almost like coaches get hit softball questions about up and coming/popular players during timeouts and such to kill time and give people like Doris Burke a reason to collect a paycheck.

I'd imagine that the question of "how do you stop Paul Pierce" was a big one in 2004, too.

[BballTim]

Very comfortable.

Why wouldn't I want to build around an All Star? Rondo just needs three things IMO to have a perfect team.

1.) A big (PF or C) who can hit midrange jumpers to play pick and pop with.

2.) A scoring wing. A guy who can create his own shots once the offense breaks down and who can shoot jumpers at a decent rate.

3.) A shooting wing who can park outside and hit threes consistently and if we're lucky, efficiently.

Give Rondo an open court to work with and a guy who can carry the offensive load with him, you have a great team that jells well. Of course it helps more if those three can do more things, such as defend, rebound at a high rate and stuff, but I think that's how you rebuild around a PG who can easily get to the basket and find open looks for his teammates. And I think with the assets that we have, we can find those players.

Yeah, I agree with you Yoki. I think it can be done but its eerily similar how the players you said compare to this eras "big 3"

1) Outside PF/C who can hit mid-range jumpers: Kevin Garnett

2) A scoring wing: Paul Pierce

3) A shooting wing who can park outside: Ray Allen

Is this what we're use to seeing? Or what Rondo really needs to be effective?

Those 3 things are basically what every title team of the last 25 or so years has (not a Rondo type player for the record).

The question I have for Yoki and others like him and that is how do you go about acquiring those players with Rondo on the team?  That is why I am fully in the move Rondo camp, as I just don't see it as being possible in the next couple of seasons (which is when you have Rondo on the right side of 30 or at all since he can leave as a free agent in 2 seasons).

Don't we have about 4 first round picks in the next two years? A big expiring contract in Kris Humphries?

We have assets to land one or two of those guys. We also have young players who can very well develop into those players. Why do we have to move Rondo, who's an elite PG that not a lot of teams have. A player who showed he can take over games. We need to give him help, and we have assets to get him help (picks, expirings, Gerald Wallace, Jeff Green, young players with potential). It just makes it better if the players we acquire fits the style of helps Rondo maximize his skills.

If you think it can't be done in two seasons, then I disagree and think you're selling Danny Ainge GM abilities short. He turned the Celtics into champions in 2008 in one fell swoop with assets like what we have. I don't see why he cant do it again.

We had significantly better assets in 2007 and we also had a significantly better building block in Pierce.

I agree with this. And also... we're basically at the ground level of a rebuild.  We aren't comparing 2007 to 2013.  If anything we're comparing 2003 to 2013.   In 2003 when Ainge took over, he dumped Walker and started collecting assets.  Pierce was only 25.   Over the course of the next 5 years, Ainge collected assets and built around his young star... eventually pushing all of his chips in on KG and Ray. 

  Take away all of our extra draft picks and get rid of all the players under 25 that aren't any better than JR Bremer we'd be in the same spot we were in 2003. Obviously we're much farther along than that.

Yeah we are pretty much 2004 after Ainge came in and moved Walker and others and added a bunch of young players and an extra pick or two (Davis, Banks, Perkins, Brown, Welsh, Mihm, Hunter).  Of course we still don't have a 26 yr old Paul Pierce on the team.

  We're probably a year or two ahead of that. Clearly you don't see why what Rondo does for a team is as valuable as scoring, but if you compare Paul's career achievements to Rondo's (both up to the age Rondo was in 11/12 before the knee injury) it's not hard to notice the scales probably tilt in Rondo's favor.

I wholly disagree with that contention.  Pierce in 2004 was a much better piece, had proven more than capable to be a #1 option on a playoff winning team, etc.  More so than Rondo (who I recognize has played very well at times in the playoffs but has never been a focal point of a team like Pierce had).  There is a difference between being an after thought on the offensive end (which really is what Rondo has been) and being the #1 guy that everyone on the other side focuses on.  That was Pierce. 

Pierce 02/03 playoff numbers were basically 27/9/7/2.  Not the most efficient scorer by any stretch, but a monster post-season for that second round team.  The year before that on the ECF team in his first playoffs Pierce was good as well at basically 24.5/8.5/4/2.  People always seem to forget that before Ainge the Celtics existed and Pierce has always been a monster, and not just in the playoffs but the regular season as well.

At that time, Pierce was a far better asset, building block, whatever you want to call it then Rondo has ever been or ever will be.

  We've been through many playoff series where the opposing coaches talked game after game about how they needed to find a way to stop Rondo, why they'd failed to contain him in the previous game and what changes they were making to their defense to slow him down going forward. Either you don't follow the team closely enough to know this or it somehow translates in your head to "Rondo's an after thought on offense". Go figure. And I haven't forgotten the way PP played in those playoffs, I just also remember things like Rondo scoring or assisting a higher percentage of his team's points than anyone else in the 2012 playoffs as well.


  And where's your evidence that PP was a far better asset than Rondo?

It's almost like coaches get hit softball questions about up and coming/popular players during timeouts and such to kill time and give people like Doris Burke a reason to collect a paycheck.

I'd imagine that the question of "how do you stop Paul Pierce" was a big one in 2004, too.

  I'm not saying it wouldn't have been a big question in 2004, but I'm sure you'd agree that claiming PP was an afterthought on offense when opposing coaches answered those questions on a regular basis would be fairly ridiculous.

[thirstyboots18]

There were many who questioned Paul Pierce's leadership.  Remember...A. Walker arguing, during a game, against the team quitting.  Stripping off hus shirt and leaving the court because of frustration.  Arguing with Refs instead of getting back into the play.  Involved in and stabbed in a Bar fight.  He grew.  Rondo has not been involved in half that stuff. He has show heart (playing with serious injury). He has been mentored by KG and PP, who have been there. He also will grow.  He has already shown great growth, and this year is actively involved, although he can not play.  Don't count Rondo out.  I just hope the Celtics will reap the benefits of his accumulated expedience, and not trade him to someone else's gain. 

That said, I still think you build "with" Rondo, not "around" him.  His skills as a point guard should be varied enough and accomplished enough to adapt to other stars. where, due to their position, their's might not be so adaptable.