time to revisit an old idea? celtics- OKC trade idea

[syfy9]

I read the last few posts and a lot of people are conceding that Westbrook is better than Rondo. I don't really think so. Call it homer-ism but they're both all star guards and their stats aren't much different except Rondo gets you 6-8 points in assists that Westbrook gets you in pull up 14-footers. Oh and Rondo is a substantially better defender.

Westbrook's a better scorer...and actually that is it. Rondo runs a offense better hands down. Their TS%s are almost identical because of Rondo's lack of 3pt and FT%.

Look at the stats!

Additionally Rondo is on a slightly cheaper contract and his WS% is higher. I'm really not seeing it as lopsided one way or the other. Maybe because Westbrook was an olympian and Rondo got snubbed.

What I will say is that I think Rondo would fit in OKC better than Westbrook does. That is just my opinion but for me Rondo is the better PG for that team and they could do a lot worse than moving Westbrook and Perkins for Rondo and maybe what I'd say is a top-20 all time player in KG. I'd call them the unabashed favorites in the west, hands down. I'd also ask for PJIII or Lamb in the deal.

Doesn't Rondo have a gambling addiction? In the 2012-2013 season, he was considered a poor defender by many posters.


We see this happen way more often than we should.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDkjj-VCIrY&list=PLD5BCB3DC22688AB9

  Are you trying to claim that Westbrook never gambles on defense? Seriously?

not nearly as much as Rondo.

[Celtics18]

My first beef with your latest response is you can't say "Lebron, Durant, Kobe, etc." without naming your etceteras.  You make it sound as if there's a list to lengthy to mention of players without flaws. 

I won't go into those guys' flaws, because, admittedly, I'd be digging pretty deep, and those aren't the guys we are discussing here, anyway. 

As to Westbrook's ball handling, IQ, and passing abilities, you make some good comparisons with guys like Green, Williams, and Brown.  Why is Westbrook better than them?  I'd say it's because those guys are well below average in their "traditional point guard skills."   If those guys didn't have the size and athleticism that they do, they wouldn't even be NBA players.  What makes Westbrook special is that he has Gerald Green type athleticism to go with average point guard skills.  That, in itself, is extremely impressive.  No other point guard in the NBA can claim that.  But, if you think he has anything close to the elite ball skills and passing ability of a Rajon Rondo or a Chris Paul, you're kidding yourself.

The point I was trying to make was that he had at least average point guard skills, and that I shouldn't be homer for thinking so. I don't think he's an elite passer or has elite BBIQ,  but his ball-handling is elite (Not talking about turnovers and stuff, but overall how well you can dribble).


Yeah, so if you want me to list them out; here's the list of who I think are elite complete basketball players (excluding those who were in the past, but have aged/regressed): Lebron, Durant, Kobe, CP3, Wade, Melo, Parker, and Rose.

I think that Westbrook, Harden, Love, Griffin, and Kyrie are all front-runners to join that group.

EDIT: P.S, TP for this good debate. 

Westbrook is not an "elite" ball handler.  He's an elite ball handler for a guy with his size and athletic tools.  And, I'm not talking about his numbers, I'm just talking about actually watching him dribble. 

As to your list of complete players, I disagree.  While that's a nice list of elite NBA players, those guys all have some flaws.  For starters, I would say that Wade, Parker, and Rose are all hardly, if at all, better shooters than Rondo.  Melo has trouble finishing at the rim, has a tendency to take too many shots, and has fairly mediocre court vision.  Paul often appears to be the perfect basketball player statistically, especially during the regular season.  His efficiency numbers are always just like made up silly.  However, his lack of elite athleticism and stubbornness can be exploited in the playoffs.  When he gets trapped aggressively, he has a tendency not to get rid of the ball fast enough.  This often leads to the offense he is running getting disrupted.  I guess Kobe's main flaw is that he shoots too much (it's probably also one of his greatest strengths).  Durant is a poor passer, and his skinny frame still hurts him on the defensive end.  Lebron, although having an improved jump shot, is not a "pure" shooter and, as witnessed for at least two or three games in the finals, can be taken out of his offensive rhythm when you pack the paint and dare him to shoot.

Oh, and TP to you as well.

Also, I felt it was high time to edit out some of our earlier responses.  Pretty soon one post was going to start taking up a whole page.

You are right about Wade, take him off the list. Rose and Parker, though, are average shooters all over. Melo...I don't think he has very much trouble there. I often see him playing big - gobbling up an offensive board and going up with it strong. That's one of his biggest strengths. If he wasn't a good finisher, he wouldn't be posting up as much.

The more I think of it, the more I think that "shoots too much" isn't really a flaw, circumstantially.

Durant averaged 4.6 apg last season.

Lebron isn't a pure shooter, but he's at least average-really good. His last shots were super clutch, too.


Westbrook's handles can only be measured by the eye test, but we can at least agree that his handles are at least average, right?

That depends on what subset of players we are comparing him to.  If we are comparing him to all NBA players, then, sure, he's well above average as a ball handler if you include centers and power forwards.  If we are just talking all NBA guards, then (just off the top of my head) I would say he's probably slightly above average.  However, if you are comparing him to the top ten to fifteen point guards in the league, I would say he'd probably be close to the bottom of that group as a ball handler. 

[mmmmm]

Westbrook's handles can only be measured by the eye test, but we can at least agree that his handles are at least average, right?

That depends on what subset of players we are comparing him to.  If we are comparing him to all NBA players, then, sure, he's well above average as a ball handler if you include centers and power forwards.  If we are just talking all NBA guards, then (just off the top of my head) I would say he's probably slightly above average.  However, if you are comparing him to the top ten to fifteen point guards in the league, I would say he'd probably be close to the bottom of that group as a ball handler.

Just to put some quantifiable numbers on this:

Among full-time PGs last year (guys who played at least 25 mpg), the average assist & TO rates were:

Assists per 40:  7.4
AR (rate of assists per possession used) : 27.60%
Turnovers:  2.9
TOR:  10.94%
A:T ratio:   2.48

For Westbrook:

Assists:  8.5
AR:  22.73%
Turnovers:  3.8
TOR:  10.30%
A:T :   2.21

So, Westbrooks' turnover rate is average for a PG, but his Assist-TO ratio is below average.   This is because his assist rate is well below average.  This suggests that he's having fewer passing TOs and a larger portion of his TOs are on the dribble.   82games.com shows that 107 of his 273 TOs were 'ball handling TOs' - 39%.  They give him a 'Hands' rating of 26.3.


For comparison, let's look at Rondo:

Assists:  11.8
AR:  39.05%!!!!!!
TO:  4.2
TOR:  13.79%
A:T:  2.83

Rondo's turnover rate was higher, but that was clearly driven by his much, much higher passing rates.   When you consider how poorly the team around Rondo shot while he was on the court this last year, those assist numbers don't probably fully reflect how much Rondo passes the ball.   Despite that, his A:T ratio was well above average for a PG.   82Games.com indicates only 33 of Rondo's 148 TOs were 'ball handling' - just 22%.  Nevertheless, because he had a higher share of passing TOs, he ends up with the essentially the same 'Hands' rating as Westbrook: 26.4.


The net of all this is that Westbrook is somewhat below average as a ball handler and loses his handle more than the average full-time PG.  Because he doesn't dish out as many passes as the average PG, his overall TO rates are not unusual, though.

[Celtics18]

Westbrook's handles can only be measured by the eye test, but we can at least agree that his handles are at least average, right?

That depends on what subset of players we are comparing him to.  If we are comparing him to all NBA players, then, sure, he's well above average as a ball handler if you include centers and power forwards.  If we are just talking all NBA guards, then (just off the top of my head) I would say he's probably slightly above average.  However, if you are comparing him to the top ten to fifteen point guards in the league, I would say he'd probably be close to the bottom of that group as a ball handler.

Just to put some quantifiable numbers on this:

Among full-time PGs last year (guys who played at least 25 mpg), the average assist & TO rates were:

Assists per 40:  7.4
AR (rate of assists per possession used) : 27.60%
Turnovers:  2.9
TOR:  10.94%
A:T ratio:   2.48

For Westbrook:

Assists:  8.5
AR:  22.73%
Turnovers:  3.8
TOR:  10.30%
A:T :   2.21

So, Westbrooks' turnover rate is average for a PG, but his Assist-TO ratio is below average.   This is because his assist rate is well below average.  This suggests that he's having fewer passing TOs and a larger portion of his TOs are on the dribble.   82games.com shows that 107 of his 273 TOs were 'ball handling TOs' - 39%.  They give him a 'Hands' rating of 26.3.


For comparison, let's look at Rondo:

Assists:  11.8
AR:  39.05%!!!!!!
TO:  4.2
TOR:  13.79%
A:T:  2.83

Rondo's turnover rate was higher, but that was clearly driven by his much, much higher passing rates.   When you consider how poorly the team around Rondo shot while he was on the court this last year, those assist numbers don't probably fully reflect how much Rondo passes the ball.   Despite that, his A:T ratio was well above average for a PG.   82Games.com indicates only 33 of Rondo's 148 TOs were 'ball handling' - just 22%.  Nevertheless, because he had a higher share of passing TOs, he ends up with the essentially the same 'Hands' rating as Westbrook: 26.4.


The net of all this is that Westbrook is somewhat below average as a ball handler and loses his handle more than the average full-time PG.  Because he doesn't dish out as many passes as the average PG, his overall TO rates are not unusual, though.

Thanks for running the numbers.