Author Topic: Why doesn't the NBA do stuff like this to their refs?  (Read 3663 times)

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Why doesn't the NBA do stuff like this to their refs?
« on: May 10, 2013, 08:53:47 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/9262019/fieldin-culbreth-suspended-2-games-pitching-change-rule-misapplied-los-angeles-angels-houston-astros-game

Quote
Major League Baseball suspended umpire Fieldin Culbreth two games and fined him an unspecified amount for allowing Houston Astros manager Bo Porter to switch relievers in the middle of an inning Thursday against the Los Angeles Angels.

"The rule covering pitching changes was not applied correctly by the umpiring crew," MLB said in a statement.

The problem came a day after Angel Hernandez and his crew in Cleveland failed to reverse a clear home run after looking at a video review. MLB vice president Joe Torre said the umpires made an "improper call."

It's recently been a rough run for umps. Crew chief Tom Hallion was fined earlier this month after getting into a verbal spat with Tampa Bay pitcher David Price.

The latest trouble in Houston occurred in the seventh inning Thursday at Minute Maid Park. And while baseball does have video replay for some hard-to-tell calls -- and has talked for a couple of years about expanding its scope -- there was no mistaking what umpires saw.

With two outs and the Astros ahead 5-3, Houston reliever Wesley Wright came in from the bullpen and threw several warm-up pitches from the mound. Porter, a first-year manager, then ran onto the field to stop him and brought in another reliever, Hector Ambriz.

Angels manager Mike Scioscia argued, correctly contending Wright was required to pitch to at least one batter. But the umpires permitted Ambriz to stay in and Scioscia put the game under protest -- which became moot when the Angels rallied to win 6-5.

Pinch hitter Luis Jimenez was on deck when Wright entered. Once Ambriz took over, Scott Cousins came up as a pinch hitter.

"Technically, Wesley came in to face the batter that was scheduled to hit, but he pinch hit for the batter that was scheduled to hit, which my understanding of the rule means you can now bring in another pitcher to face the pinch hitter," Porter said.

Culbreth, who was the crew chief, provided little clarification after the game.

"The only thing I can tell you is that all matters concerning protests are handled through the league office," he said.

MLB acted Friday, saying Culbreth was responsible for "the misapplication of Official Baseball Rule 3.05(b)," which states:

"If the pitcher is replaced, the substitute pitcher shall pitch to the batter then at bat, or any substitute batter, until such batter is put out or reaches first base, or until the offensive team is put out, unless the substitute pitcher sustains injury or illness which, in the umpire-in-chief's judgment, incapacitates him for further play as a pitcher."

A day earlier, a mistake in Cleveland caused a lot of commotion.

Adam Rosales and the Athletics were certain he had hit a game-tying home run in the ninth inning against the Indians. Three umpires went to a video review and instead upheld the original call on the field that the ball didn't clear the left-field wall.

Oakland manager Bob Melvin was ejected and was later contacted by MLB officials.

The mistake drew attention all over the majors. Pittsburgh manager Clint Hurdle said he had never seen an obvious miss despite replay.

"This is the first one where there definitely is a line drawn where you go, 'Wow,'" he said.

Publicly fining, suspending an umpire/referee for making mistakes. Not suspending a coach or fining a coach for complaining of refs or getting thrown out of a game for excessively arguing an obviously egregious call. Instead you call the coach and, apparently, must have been a bit apologetic.

I think these things are the proper way to handle officials who can be bad to the point of incompetent. They have a union to protect them. They get paid by the league. They should be held publicly responsible for their actions as much as any team official, coach or player is. No less.

But David Stern for some reasons coddles his refs.

Any logical non-conspiracy theory explanations why?

If you do not have an answer for the above question, then go ahead, let's here the conspiracy theories. They are fun too!!  :D

Re: Why doesn't the NBA do stuff like this to their refs?
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2013, 08:59:16 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Probably because this is a clear-cut rules violation by the ref, that could have affected the outcome of the game.  Not a live play, no judgment involved, the ump just screwed up and allowed an illegal substitution.

If a ref let a player substitute illegally in crunch time of an NBA game, I'd like to think they'd be penalized too. 

Re: Why doesn't the NBA do stuff like this to their refs?
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2013, 09:01:16 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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When the refs don't know / don't understand the rules, I think fines and suspensions are absolutely appropriate.

I don't think this should be extended to judgment calls, or "bang-bang" plays.  Misapplication of the rules needs to be punished, though.


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Re: Why doesn't the NBA do stuff like this to their refs?
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2013, 09:10:03 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Probably because this is a clear-cut rules violation by the ref, that could have affected the outcome of the game.  Not a live play, no judgment involved, the ump just screwed up and allowed an illegal substitution.

If a ref let a player substitute illegally in crunch time of an NBA game, I'd like to think they'd be penalized too.
I don't seem to remember anything happening to those refs that allowed, was it Portland, to have a 6 on 5 advantage against the Celtics and then not properly enforce the rules and give the Celtics the proper technical fouls that game.

I may be wrong, but I don't remember any suspension or fine of those refs for complete incompetence.

And what about the ref that gave Tim Duncan a technical for smiling on the bench? Would stuff like appearing to be holding an obvious personal grudge be grounds for doing something public to the ref?

Re: Why doesn't the NBA do stuff like this to their refs?
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2013, 09:17:37 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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And what about the ref that gave Tim Duncan a technical for smiling on the bench? Would stuff like appearing to be holding an obvious personal grudge be grounds for doing something public to the ref?

That was Crawford, and they suspended him for the rest of the season.    So yes.

Re: Why doesn't the NBA do stuff like this to their refs?
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2013, 09:37:00 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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And what about the ref that gave Tim Duncan a technical for smiling on the bench? Would stuff like appearing to be holding an obvious personal grudge be grounds for doing something public to the ref?

That was Crawford, and they suspended him for the rest of the season.    So yes.
Okay, so then maybe the NBA should just do it more often.

Re: Why doesn't the NBA do stuff like this to their refs?
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2013, 09:38:45 PM »

Offline CelticConcourse

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And what about the ref that gave Tim Duncan a technical for smiling on the bench? Would stuff like appearing to be holding an obvious personal grudge be grounds for doing something public to the ref?

That was Crawford, and they suspended him for the rest of the season.    So yes.
Okay, so then maybe the NBA should just do it more often.

Disagree. There's only so many quality refs
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Re: Why doesn't the NBA do stuff like this to their refs?
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2013, 09:39:20 PM »

Offline CelticG1

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When the refs don't know / don't understand the rules, I think fines and suspensions are absolutely appropriate.

I don't think this should be extended to judgment calls, or "bang-bang" plays.  Misapplication of the rules needs to be punished, though.

I feel like there are several obvious mistakes every season. Not necessarily bang bang or judgement calls.

I forgot what the call was exactly but I think it was game 6 of the hawks playoffs last year with like 30 seconds left.

Didn't we like foul al horford before they inbounded the ball? It should have been automatic free throws or free throws and the ball back.

It was something like that and a ridiculously bad call.

Couple years ago blazers had 6 guys on the court  during a play. Nothing happened. No technical no anything. There def has to be a rule for that they screwed up on.

I'm sure there are plenty of others
« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 10:36:18 PM by CelticG1 »

Re: Why doesn't the NBA do stuff like this to their refs?
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2013, 09:46:59 PM »

Offline badshar

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Maybe because the NBA is a pure entertainment league and often fixes its own games and tells referees to calls games a certain way to make a certain team win, which in turn increases TV ratings?

Re: Why doesn't the NBA do stuff like this to their refs?
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2013, 12:16:23 AM »

Offline ChainSmokingLikeDino

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Maybe because the NBA is a pure entertainment league and often fixes its own games and tells referees to calls games a certain way to make a certain team win, which in turn increases TV ratings?

Not being smug, but then why are you watching/posting here?

As per this, it is a little disingenuous as MLB is even more apologetic for poor umpiring than the NBA, to say nothing of the mythic "human element" and all the aw-shucks, old-timey folksiness and the endless errors and mistakes that it drags along with it. This is the one example, after a blatant ignorance of the rules by an ump, that MLB stepped up. Let us not pretend that baseball is good about these things. Which doesn't excuse the NBA, lord knows I have my problems with the refs, but MLB is hardly a paragon of doing the "right thing."

Re: Why doesn't the NBA do stuff like this to their refs?
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2013, 12:41:07 AM »

Offline ScottHow

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My main gripe is why is Scott Foster still in the league.

Edit: why is any current ref still in the league? Just fire them all and start over clean, it's not like the quality get worse

Re: Why doesn't the NBA do stuff like this to their refs?
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2013, 01:03:54 AM »

Offline action781

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My main gripe is why is Scott Foster still in the league.

Edit: why is any current ref still in the league? Just fire them all and start over clean, it's not like the quality get worse

Did you see what happened in the NFL?
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Re: Why doesn't the NBA do stuff like this to their refs?
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2013, 03:34:31 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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My main gripe is why is Scott Foster still in the league.

Edit: why is any current ref still in the league? Just fire them all and start over clean, it's not like the quality get worse

Did you see what happened in the NFL?

TP. I think it was Deadspin, but it may have been SBNation proper, that pointed out the fact that, assuming a game has 200 possessions that end in points, a turnover, or a foul, the NBA refs screw up maybe five to ten of them. The problem, of course, is that those are the plays we remember.

I do think there should be an age limit though--there's no way someone like Dick Bavetta can actually react to a game fast enough to make the correct call. Send him off gracefully into retirement, but the dude is too old.
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Re: Why doesn't the NBA do stuff like this to their refs?
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2013, 08:30:46 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Because they are doing exactly what Stern tells them to do to get the matchups the league wants.

The calls LeBron gets are short of ridiculous.   It is not just star calls on fouls to subsidize his production but all the travels.

Re: Why doesn't the NBA do stuff like this to their refs?
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2013, 09:49:31 AM »

Offline ScottHow

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My main gripe is why is Scott Foster still in the league.

Edit: why is any current ref still in the league? Just fire them all and start over clean, it's not like the quality get worse

Did you see what happened in the NFL?

Didn't they have d3 and bikini league refs? lol I'm not saying go that low