Do Our Celtics Have Enough "Chips" To Package To Obtain Another Max Guy?

[Boris Badenov]

Unless said max guy is Joe Johnson, no.

[KGs Knee]

So, what kind of chips are we talking here?

Humpty Dumpty
Lays
Ruffles

Or the gold standard, Cape Cod

[SHAQATTACK]

So, what kind of chips are we talking here?

Humpty Dumpty
Lays
Ruffles

Or the gold standard, Cape Cod

heavens no......   UTZ.   only

[KGs Knee]

So, what kind of chips are we talking here?

Humpty Dumpty
Lays
Ruffles

Or the gold standard, Cape Cod

heavens no......   UTZ.   only

Oye!

Nothing beats a Cape Cop Sea Salt and Cracked Pepper chip.  Definitely not (P)UTZ.

[WeMadeIt17]

I think the Celtics could pull something off if they get a 3rd team involved. So we'll see. We need a better SG. I feel AB is better off the bench to bring defense, and a solid big man. Again remains to be seen. But i know rumors will be everywhere this summer.

[More Banners]

Working under the idea that Rondo, Pierce, and KG are staying...

Assets:  Sully, Bradley, #16 or the 2014 pick, the non-guaranteed deals, Melo.

Green could stay or go.  Personally, keeping him with Rondo, and finding a #1 option, makes the most sense to me.

Sully and Bradley, plus #16, Melo, plus salary filler in the form of role players, meaning either Lee or Bass, preferably both.  Of course, a team trading for Bradley and Sully wouldn't want Lee or Bass...

So whatever salary that adds up to should do it for what we have to offer.  I don't think, talent-wise, it adds up to a max player or even makes sense.

[gpap]

So, what kind of chips are we talking here?

Humpty Dumpty
Lays
Ruffles

Or the gold standard, Cape Cod

I am rather partial to Wise, myself.

[syfy9]

Green is inconsistent, Bradley literally disappeared in the playoffs, Lee sucks, Sullinger was out of shape and Bass is undersized and inconsistent.

Green isn't inconsistent. He was in the 1st half of the season, but saying he's inconsistent is being ignorant of just how important he was this season. He got over his injuries and into basketball shape.

Bradley scored 10 straight points in the 4th quarter of game 6 to cut down a 20 point deficient. His defensive presence never disappears. 

Lee "sucked"? Can't argue with all of your facts and evidence.

Sully wasn't that out of shape...he looked fine to me. He was capable of playing starter minutes and perform at the level we wanted him to. Note - just because you are large doesn't mean you are out of shape.

Bass has been very inconsistent throughout the season, but his role when Rondo was healthy was to be a pick and pop and hustle player. He's not worth his contract, but he's better than a lot of other role players out there. (Remember his defense on Melo?)

[guava_wrench]

Our most enticing non-Rondo package would probably be Green, the 3 non-guaranteed deals, our #16 pick and Sully.  That's in the general ballpark of what OKC got for Harden (Martin, Lamb, Toronto pick).

Problem is there really isn't a Harden level talent on the market.  Cuban has promised he's not moving Dirk.  Minnesota is trying to pull themselves out of the bottom of the barrel - they are not going to dump Love for another rebuilding package unless that situation gets a lot worse.

Harden wasn't a star when that trade was made.  He wasn't even a starter.  They were taking a chance and projecting him to be a star. 

They got Lamb (picked 12th), Martin (a solid starter who averages 18 points), two future 1st rounders (one of which comes from Toronto and is projected 12).. plus a 2nd round pick.

Sully wasn't a lotto pick.  The #16 pick isn't a lotto pick.  Even if we pretended those two were lotto picks, to equal the bounty that OKC got for their bench player, we'd have to find another 1st rounder and a 2nd rounder.

So in other words...

it would be like packaging Jeff Green, Sully, the #16 picks... another 1st rounder... another 2nd rounder... and getting back a bench player with potential.  Derrick Favors, for instance.   Except that the Houston package was more valuable than that imaginary Boston package.

Excellent analysis on the assets.

I agree with everything in this post except one part. Every GM in the league considered Harden a clear NBA starter. There was essentially no risk that he wouldn't be a good starter. The risk was whether he would be a perennial all star. Him not starting in OKC was like Manu not starting in SA, except Harden was at the start of his career with 2 all-star perimeter players starting.

Harden averaged 16.8 PPG in 31.4 MPG that last season in OKC. He was a guy proven to be able to score 16.8 in 31.4 MPG, with 4.1 RPG and 3.7 AST and clear skills. There was a lot of debate about whether he or Westbrook was the better player while at OKC. His incredible performance in HOU was not guaranteed, but few people were surprised by it.

[guava_wrench]

Unless said max guy is Joe Johnson, no.

Yeah. It is a bit misguided to think in terms of 'max' player, especially since the max differs depending upon years of service.

[KGs Knee]

Our most enticing non-Rondo package would probably be Green, the 3 non-guaranteed deals, our #16 pick and Sully.  That's in the general ballpark of what OKC got for Harden (Martin, Lamb, Toronto pick).

Problem is there really isn't a Harden level talent on the market.  Cuban has promised he's not moving Dirk.  Minnesota is trying to pull themselves out of the bottom of the barrel - they are not going to dump Love for another rebuilding package unless that situation gets a lot worse.

Harden wasn't a star when that trade was made.  He wasn't even a starter.  They were taking a chance and projecting him to be a star. 

They got Lamb (picked 12th), Martin (a solid starter who averages 18 points), two future 1st rounders (one of which comes from Toronto and is projected 12).. plus a 2nd round pick.

Sully wasn't a lotto pick.  The #16 pick isn't a lotto pick.  Even if we pretended those two were lotto picks, to equal the bounty that OKC got for their bench player, we'd have to find another 1st rounder and a 2nd rounder.

So in other words...

it would be like packaging Jeff Green, Sully, the #16 picks... another 1st rounder... another 2nd rounder... and getting back a bench player with potential.  Derrick Favors, for instance.   Except that the Houston package was more valuable than that imaginary Boston package.

Excellent analysis on the assets.

I agree with everything in this post except one part. Every GM in the league considered Harden a clear NBA starter. There was essentially no risk that he wouldn't be a good starter. The risk was whether he would be a perennial all star. Him not starting in OKC was like Manu not starting in SA, except Harden was at the start of his career with 2 all-star perimeter players starting.

Harden averaged 16.8 PPG in 31.4 MPG that last season in OKC. He was a guy proven to be able to score 16.8 in 31.4 MPG, with 4.1 RPG and 3.7 AST and clear skills. There was a lot of debate about whether he or Westbrook was the better player while at OKC. His incredible performance in HOU was not guaranteed, but few people were surprised by it.

FWIW, I said at the time of the trade that OKC traded the wrong guy.  They should have traded Westbrook.  As far back as two years ago, I could tell Harden was going to be the better player.

One year on his own, and he's already proven it.

[guava_wrench]

Our most enticing non-Rondo package would probably be Green, the 3 non-guaranteed deals, our #16 pick and Sully.  That's in the general ballpark of what OKC got for Harden (Martin, Lamb, Toronto pick).

Problem is there really isn't a Harden level talent on the market.  Cuban has promised he's not moving Dirk.  Minnesota is trying to pull themselves out of the bottom of the barrel - they are not going to dump Love for another rebuilding package unless that situation gets a lot worse.

Harden wasn't a star when that trade was made.  He wasn't even a starter.  They were taking a chance and projecting him to be a star. 

They got Lamb (picked 12th), Martin (a solid starter who averages 18 points), two future 1st rounders (one of which comes from Toronto and is projected 12).. plus a 2nd round pick.

Sully wasn't a lotto pick.  The #16 pick isn't a lotto pick.  Even if we pretended those two were lotto picks, to equal the bounty that OKC got for their bench player, we'd have to find another 1st rounder and a 2nd rounder.

So in other words...

it would be like packaging Jeff Green, Sully, the #16 picks... another 1st rounder... another 2nd rounder... and getting back a bench player with potential.  Derrick Favors, for instance.   Except that the Houston package was more valuable than that imaginary Boston package.

Excellent analysis on the assets.

I agree with everything in this post except one part. Every GM in the league considered Harden a clear NBA starter. There was essentially no risk that he wouldn't be a good starter. The risk was whether he would be a perennial all star. Him not starting in OKC was like Manu not starting in SA, except Harden was at the start of his career with 2 all-star perimeter players starting.

Harden averaged 16.8 PPG in 31.4 MPG that last season in OKC. He was a guy proven to be able to score 16.8 in 31.4 MPG, with 4.1 RPG and 3.7 AST and clear skills. There was a lot of debate about whether he or Westbrook was the better player while at OKC. His incredible performance in HOU was not guaranteed, but few people were surprised by it.

FWIW, I said at the time of the trade that OKC traded the wrong guy.  They should have traded Westbrook.  As far back as two years ago, I could tell Harden was going to be the better player.

One year on his own, and he's already proven it.

Yeah, I remember a rather large number of posters on here sharing that opinion. Personally, I was a bit biased against Westbrook. For some reason I really liked Westbrook until he became and all star, than I found him annoying.

An important thing to remember for those comparing Green to  Martin would be that Houston was able to get Harden because OKC couldn't afford to pay all their guys. Teams in that position would prefer a guy like Martin who comes off the books immediately instead of a guy like Green who has a multiyear commitment.

If we are looking to get a top player like LA did with Gasol or Hou did with Harden, we need to have the ability to trade non-onerous contracts -- usually meaning contracts with options or contracts with not much time left -- since we will need to match money due to being over the cap.

[LarBrd33]

Our most enticing non-Rondo package would probably be Green, the 3 non-guaranteed deals, our #16 pick and Sully.  That's in the general ballpark of what OKC got for Harden (Martin, Lamb, Toronto pick).

Problem is there really isn't a Harden level talent on the market.  Cuban has promised he's not moving Dirk.  Minnesota is trying to pull themselves out of the bottom of the barrel - they are not going to dump Love for another rebuilding package unless that situation gets a lot worse.

Harden wasn't a star when that trade was made.  He wasn't even a starter.  They were taking a chance and projecting him to be a star. 

They got Lamb (picked 12th), Martin (a solid starter who averages 18 points), two future 1st rounders (one of which comes from Toronto and is projected 12).. plus a 2nd round pick.

Sully wasn't a lotto pick.  The #16 pick isn't a lotto pick.  Even if we pretended those two were lotto picks, to equal the bounty that OKC got for their bench player, we'd have to find another 1st rounder and a 2nd rounder.

So in other words...

it would be like packaging Jeff Green, Sully, the #16 picks... another 1st rounder... another 2nd rounder... and getting back a bench player with potential.  Derrick Favors, for instance.   Except that the Houston package was more valuable than that imaginary Boston package.

Excellent analysis on the assets.

I agree with everything in this post except one part. Every GM in the league considered Harden a clear NBA starter. There was essentially no risk that he wouldn't be a good starter. The risk was whether he would be a perennial all star. Him not starting in OKC was like Manu not starting in SA, except Harden was at the start of his career with 2 all-star perimeter players starting.

Harden averaged 16.8 PPG in 31.4 MPG that last season in OKC. He was a guy proven to be able to score 16.8 in 31.4 MPG, with 4.1 RPG and 3.7 AST and clear skills. There was a lot of debate about whether he or Westbrook was the better player while at OKC. His incredible performance in HOU was not guaranteed, but few people were surprised by it.

FWIW, I said at the time of the trade that OKC traded the wrong guy.  They should have traded Westbrook.  As far back as two years ago, I could tell Harden was going to be the better player.

One year on his own, and he's already proven it.

I basically agree with both of you guys.  That's why I used Derrick Favors as my example.

21 year old Favors averaged 9.4 points, 7.1 rebounsd, 1.7 blocks 48% shooting in 23 minutes ... He only started 8 of his 77 games.   Meanwhile, he was coming off the bench because of Al Jefferson and Paul Millisap.

Could totally see him going to another team and putting up big numbers.  Probably not on the level of James Harden, but check out the per 36 minute numbers:

Favors:  14.6 points, 11 rebounds, 2.6 blocks, 1.3 steals
Big Al: 19 points, 10 rebounds, 1.2 blocks, 1.1 steals
Millisap: 17 points, 8.4 rebounds, 1.2 blocks, 1.5 steals

Perhaps there's a better example... I was looking for a guy who could conceivably be a star-level player and was currently coming off the bench... Favors was the first guy who came to mind.

I think due to Favors age, the fact he was a #2 pick, and the fact that he's a big man... a Jeff Green + Sully + #16 + Future 1st + Future 2nd makes some sense... a weaker package than the Houston/Harden trade nets a lesser talent.  Of course, Utah would never do such a thing.   

[snively]

Our most enticing non-Rondo package would probably be Green, the 3 non-guaranteed deals, our #16 pick and Sully.  That's in the general ballpark of what OKC got for Harden (Martin, Lamb, Toronto pick).

Problem is there really isn't a Harden level talent on the market.  Cuban has promised he's not moving Dirk.  Minnesota is trying to pull themselves out of the bottom of the barrel - they are not going to dump Love for another rebuilding package unless that situation gets a lot worse.

Harden wasn't a star when that trade was made.  He wasn't even a starter.  They were taking a chance and projecting him to be a star. 

They got Lamb (picked 12th), Martin (a solid starter who averages 18 points), two future 1st rounders (one of which comes from Toronto and is projected 12).. plus a 2nd round pick.

Sully wasn't a lotto pick.  The #16 pick isn't a lotto pick.  Even if we pretended those two were lotto picks, to equal the bounty that OKC got for their bench player, we'd have to find another 1st rounder and a 2nd rounder.

So in other words...

it would be like packaging Jeff Green, Sully, the #16 picks... another 1st rounder... another 2nd rounder... and getting back a bench player with potential.  Derrick Favors, for instance.   Except that the Houston package was more valuable than that imaginary Boston package.

The prevailing wisdom was that Harden was a bonafide all-star talent - he was widely viewed as the 3rd or 2nd best player on a team that went to the finals.  The whole reason OKC traded him was because they both knew he could get a max deal on the open market.

Calling him a "bench player with potential" is misleading semantics - he was valued as a young star.

I hadn't realized that OKC got an extra 1st round pick in the deal, so I'll throw one in to the theoretical Boston package to return to the comparison:

Green + Sully + #16 + future pick is in the general ballpark of the deal that landed the 2nd or 3rd best player (and young to boot) on a finals team. 

Of course, these kind of trades don't happen in a vacuum (a Green centered package is best suited to attract a team with a hole at the 3), but the point is, we have the talent to put together a trade for a star. 

The question is whether the right star will become available. And I'm pessimistic on that front.

Dirk would be intriguing (a Rondo/Bradley/Pierce/Dirk/KG line-up would be loads of fun), but Cuban has been adamant that he won't trade him.

Kevin Love might be available but given Minnesota's recent history, I have a very hard time seeing them moving him for anything less than an established star.

LaMarcus Aldridge might be available, but Portland would have little interest in Green with Batum on board.

There is a second tier of stars that might be more attainable though.

Josh Smith in a sign and trade (and Atlanta has a pretty massive hole at the 3).

Pau Gasol (in a deal centered around Pierce or Green).

Anderson Varejao (for Green)

Demarcus Cousins (valuation on Cousins varies pretty wildly, but I can see the Kings valuing a Green/Sully + package highly).

[Moranis]

Green, Sully, 16, and a future 1st is not about the same as Martin, Lamb, Lotto Pick from another team, 1st, 2nd

Martin is better than Green and expiring.  Lamb was drafted higher than Sully in the same draft and is not currently injured.  A lotto pick from Toronto is far better than 16.  The 1st and future 1st are about a wash, plus there is a 2nd.