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A stat that jumped out at me.
« on: May 09, 2013, 09:41:32 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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In last season's playoffs, Kevin Garnett took 15.6 FGAs per 36 minutes.  Brandon Bass took 10.4 per 36. 

In this year's playoffs, Kevin Garnett took 10.2 FGAs per 36.  While Brandon was only taking 5.1 shots from the floor per 36 minutes. 

That seems to me to be an astounding difference.  What happened? 

It seems to me that the most plausible answer is that our bigs, in particular, were desperately missing having one of the elite passers in the history of the game out on the floor with them to set them up for easy shots. 

Without Rondo getting into the lane, collapsing the defense, and kicking the ball out for those easy, wide open 15 footers or dump offs at the rim, they couldn't get into any kind of rhythm offensively.  Even what we generally think of as simple post passes weren't being executed without countless errors in this year's playoffs.  There were very few rolls off the pick with KG for lobs at the basket delivered by the point guard. 

Our offense was historically miserable against a Knicks team that had been fairly mediocre throughout the regular season, and we simply couldn't get the bigs involved. 

We can complain all we want about the offense when Rondo was running it; we were relying too much on jump shots, we weren't getting enough offensive rebounds, not getting to the line enough, but with our playmaker out there our offense has always been a high assist, high field goal shooting one.  We've never seen anything approaching the levels of badness that we saw in the 6 games without him against the Knicks.

I'm absolutely convinced that if Rajon Rondo hadn't suffered that season ending knee surgery that we'd still be watching Celtics basketball this post-season. 

Would anyone seriously claim otherwise? 
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PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson
Re: A stat that jumped out at me.
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2013, 09:43:06 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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1)  Not having Rondo run the offense

2)  Not having Ray Allen spreading the floor
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Re: A stat that jumped out at me.
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2013, 09:46:22 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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Quote from: wdleehi on May 09, 2013, 09:43:06 AM
1)  Not having Rondo run the offense

2)  Not having Ray Allen spreading the floor

Sure, 2). was probably a factor to an extent, but without someone who can consistently get in the lane and wreak havoc, it becomes much, much easier for the defense to stay home on the perimeter. 
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DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson
Re: A stat that jumped out at me.
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2013, 10:05:28 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Quote from: wdleehi on May 09, 2013, 09:43:06 AM
1)  Not having Rondo run the offense

2)  Not having Ray Allen spreading the floor

  Probably a lot more of 1) than 2), Ray was gimping around the court last year and wasn't even playing that much the beginning of the playoffs.
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Re: A stat that jumped out at me.
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2013, 10:10:13 AM »

Offline chambers

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Really good point.
We forget how many drive and kick out's he creates under the rim.
Penetrates to try and score the layup or floater. When the defensive help comes he kick it to an open shooter, if that shooter is covered, the shooter swings it to Bass or KG- whoever is the better option at the time.
Think about how much of our offense against Philly, Atlanta and Miami last year were Bass and KG jumpshots coming from Rondo assists.

Really good point. TP
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Re: A stat that jumped out at me.
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2013, 10:13:40 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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Quote from: BballTim on May 09, 2013, 10:05:28 AM
Quote from: wdleehi on May 09, 2013, 09:43:06 AM
1)  Not having Rondo run the offense

2)  Not having Ray Allen spreading the floor

  Probably a lot more of 1) than 2), Ray was gimping around the court last year and wasn't even playing that much the beginning of the playoffs.


He was still playing.  He was still stretching the court. 


I am not saying he was a more important piece, but it did help having one less defender in low. 
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Re: A stat that jumped out at me.
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2013, 10:25:11 AM »

Offline krook

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Quote from: wdleehi on May 09, 2013, 09:43:06 AM
1)  Not having Rondo run the offense

2)  Not having Ray Allen spreading the floor

kg plays pf (sometimes) with steimsma in it makes easier for kg to shoot and rebounds given the height...
bass jump shots are awful even before rondo got injured...rondo injured...it became much worse...
if bass only plays good on playoffs time, he does not have the heart of being a celtics player, i say trade him...as for kg grabbing 17offense rebounds, i take him until next year with pierce
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Re: A stat that jumped out at me.
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2013, 10:31:04 AM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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Quote from: wdleehi on May 09, 2013, 10:13:40 AM
Quote from: BballTim on May 09, 2013, 10:05:28 AM
Quote from: wdleehi on May 09, 2013, 09:43:06 AM
1)  Not having Rondo run the offense

2)  Not having Ray Allen spreading the floor

  Probably a lot more of 1) than 2), Ray was gimping around the court last year and wasn't even playing that much the beginning of the playoffs.


He was still playing.  He was still stretching the court. 


I am not saying he was a more important piece, but it did help having one less defender in low.

Is stretching the court and having "one less defender in low" important when your bigs are all taking 20 foot jumpers? Haha.

It's not like we have Hakeem down there, drawing a triple-team.

Seriously, both might have mattered but Rondo is the straw that stirs the drink IMO.

Although it might be worth adding:

(3) Not having a backup point guard on your roster.

I mean, we missed Rondo, sure. But we also might have been a heck of a lot better if he had someone, anyone, who was a real PG to take his place.
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Re: A stat that jumped out at me.
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2013, 10:37:04 AM »

Offline Who

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It's both the from the PG position + the Pierce/Green wing combination.

PG position = lack of a dribble penetration and playmaking

Pierce/Green = leads to too many isolation and post up (mainly mid post action) plays. Which when combined with two mid-to-high post big men makes the floor to compact. Not enough spacing. Very easy to defend against. Easy to show or double on help defense and recover to shooters who are nearby. Floor not stretched.

Both are situations that need to be addressed going into next season. Rondo is the easy fix at PG. A better backup PG is clearly necessary also. And then Pierce + Green need to be broken up. One needs to leave. There isn't enough minutes for both of them and they can't play well enough alongside one another given the makeup of the rest of the team.
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Re: A stat that jumped out at me.
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2013, 11:08:02 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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Quote from: Who on May 09, 2013, 10:37:04 AM
It's both the from the PG position + the Pierce/Green wing combination.

PG position = lack of a dribble penetration and playmaking

Pierce/Green = leads to too many isolation and post up (mainly mid post action) plays. Which when combined with two mid-to-high post big men makes the floor to compact. Not enough spacing. Very easy to defend against. Easy to show or double on help defense and recover to shooters who are nearby. Floor not stretched.

Both are situations that need to be addressed going into next season. Rondo is the easy fix at PG. A better backup PG is clearly necessary also. And then Pierce + Green need to be broken up. One needs to leave. There isn't enough minutes for both of them and they can't play well enough alongside one another given the makeup of the rest of the team.

I totally agree about the back up point guard situation.  I know you've been sounding the trumpet for JJ Barea for a while now, and I think he'd be a great fit. 

Looking at a lot of the successful teams out there, many of them have multiple ball handling guards (often, employing them together).  Golden State has Curry and Jack, New York with Felton, Kidd, Prigioni, the Clippers with Paul, Billups, Crawford,  and Bledsoe.  Dallas' championship team often went with a multi-guard, multi-penetrators lineup, which was a big difference maker for them in those playoffs.

I never mistook Avery for a point guard, but I thought he'd be able to give us a little more in the penetration and shot creation department with Rondo down.  That wasn't to be.   

I sort of agree with your Green and Pierce point, as well.  I'd just hate to see Paul Pierce go, and would rather keep him and have him play in a more limited backup role.  On the other hand, if we can get some quality front court help in return for Green, then maybe that's worth thinking about.  With more backcourt, ballhandling and penetration, that should help the Captain not have to carry the load so much. 

One more run.

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DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson
Re: A stat that jumped out at me.
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2013, 11:13:40 AM »

Offline CelticG1

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Yeah it was completely Rondo.

Look at shot attempts and mid range jumpers.

Bass lived from the mid range last year. Even when he scored this year didn't feel like it was from midrange. The mid range shots he would get would be those contested rushed ones.

Same with KG he would have some long step in the 3 point lane jumpers but no where near the amount of room he got when Rondo was feeding him.

You'd have to provide more info to convince me that Ray was a big factor in all of this
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Re: A stat that jumped out at me.
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2013, 11:38:22 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Quote from: Who on May 09, 2013, 10:37:04 AM
It's both the from the PG position + the Pierce/Green wing combination.

PG position = lack of a dribble penetration and playmaking

Pierce/Green = leads to too many isolation and post up (mainly mid post action) plays. Which when combined with two mid-to-high post big men makes the floor to compact. Not enough spacing. Very easy to defend against. Easy to show or double on help defense and recover to shooters who are nearby. Floor not stretched.

Both are situations that need to be addressed going into next season. Rondo is the easy fix at PG. A better backup PG is clearly necessary also. And then Pierce + Green need to be broken up. One needs to leave. There isn't enough minutes for both of them and they can't play well enough alongside one another given the makeup of the rest of the team.

  Green was one of the better spot up shooters in the league last year. I think he does pretty well hanging out at the three point line and, when he gets a pass, choosing between shooting or driving when he gets it. I think he does it better in that role than running too many iso plays or trying to initiate the offense like PP does. Obviously you can post him up at times but he's a pretty good floor spacer.
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Re: A stat that jumped out at me.
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2013, 11:59:20 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Quote from: wdleehi on May 09, 2013, 09:43:06 AM
1)  Not having Rondo run the offense

2)  Not having Ray Allen spreading the floor
3) Pierce chucking (bad) jumpers like there was no tomorrow.

4) Having a lot of offense run from Green, who's not very good in going to the roll/pop part of the pick-and-roll/pop.
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Re: A stat that jumped out at me.
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2013, 12:11:09 PM »

Offline action781

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Quote from: wdleehi on May 09, 2013, 09:43:06 AM
1)  Not having Rondo run the offense

2)  Not having Ray Allen spreading the floor

In terms of #1, I think yes, but not why other people do.  I don't feel that Rondo's penetration was the difference maker in that many FGAs for our bigs.  Moreso, it was that Rondo is an incredible ball handler and was able to dribble the ball right at the 3 pt line without feeling pressure and make an entry pass into the post.  Without Rondo, our guards never felt unpressured within 35 feet of the basket so were never in range to make a good entry pass to the post.
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Re: A stat that jumped out at me.
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2013, 12:11:30 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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The thing that stood out more than anything to me, particularly in the playoffs, was are complete inability to make even the most simple of post-entry passed.

Pierce was the only player who seemed capable, but a good majority of the attempts were aimed towards Pierce while he was in the post.
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