Can we all agree Jeff Green is a number 3 scoring option at best?

[crimson_stallion]

whenever green starts he tends to get 20ppg but its in the flow of the game it seems. I think he can be a scorer..but he's not your "go to guy" in clutch situations

for us right now thats pierce

I think a better question is in the future, Is rondo your #1?? or is he a #2 and we need to find a #1?

I would like to see Rondo become more of a scorer next year average something like 17ppg...we know he CAN do it as he has done in the playoffs..but its whether he wants to or not

Rondo certainly is not a #1 option.  I wouldn't even want him as my #2 option offensively.  He can be very dominant as a scorer, but he's too inconsistent and lacks the versatility to do it night in and night out.

He'll score 30 one night, then 10 the next 4 nights.

Rondo's best offensive talents are his ability to drive and score on tricky layups, and his ability to hit the wide open jumper.  Both of these depend on having other scorers on the floor to draw attention away from him.  If Rondo was your #1 scoring option teams would just defend against the drive and force him to take contested jumpers, and he'd struggle immensely.

His past strength has come from the fact that people can't do that, because we have guys like Pierce, Green, KG and Terry who demand defensive attention.  This is why Rondo will always be a complimentary player, never a number one option.

This will only change if he significantly improves his three point shot ans free throw shooting to the point where people need to at least respect that aspect of his game.

[LooseCannon]

Love Green, but he is certainly not a good ball handler.  Really struggles under any type of pressure, and even when hea relatively open he looks awkward and uncomfortable with the ball.

Would you can him an average ball-handler, a somewhat below-average one, or a horribly bad one?

[kozlodoev]

Even his one go-to move - that dribble-drive - is something he gets off only because of his superior length and leaping ability

I get scared when he dribbles as he has a suspect handle.  Sometimes it simply goes off his foot.   I wanted to see him filling the lanes next to Rondo on the break.

He absolutely does not have suspect handle (even more so for a man his size). Avery Bradley has suspect handle (and Terry is pretty close to him in that regard, too).

You think Terry has a suspect handle?  Really?  The guy played a pretty credible point guard for many years of his career.  He is a fine ballhandler who can slip through little cracks on the dribble as well as dribble fullcourt without the ball slowing him down. 

I think Green's handle is pretty below-average.  For one it's very basic and right hand dominant.  Two, when he tries to speed up and break someone down, he is prone to losing the ball in a variety of ways.  For his height is irrelevant to me because there are guys his height like Lebron and Durant who handle the ball much better.  Carmelo is Green's height and not a great ballhandler either but I'd still consider him an appreciably better ballhandler.

So you're saying that Terry is breaking people off the dribble? Or that he's not "right-hand dominant"? Or that it's accidental that we would rather have Courtney Lee bring up the ball instead of Terry? (and even Jeff Green, Doc is on record saying that he likes pairing Jeff with the bench guards to give the bench "a ball handler").

And are you really comparing him with LeBron and Durant? Really? This way, you can find 90% of the NBA "suspect" in pretty much anything they do. 

Other players with Jeff Green's height: Udonis Haslem, Shane Battier, Metta World Peace, James Posey, Reggie Evans, David Lee, David West, Kevin Love, Michael Beasley, Brandon Bass, Glen Davis, Paul Milsap, Luis Scola, to name a few.

He's not simply a good ball handler considering his size, he probably goes into the premier category.

[Boris Badenov]

Even his one go-to move - that dribble-drive - is something he gets off only because of his superior length and leaping ability

I get scared when he dribbles as he has a suspect handle.  Sometimes it simply goes off his foot.   I wanted to see him filling the lanes next to Rondo on the break.

He absolutely does not have suspect handle (even more so for a man his size). Avery Bradley has suspect handle (and Terry is pretty close to him in that regard, too).

Green has a pretty high TO % for someone who doesn't create for others. His and Pierce's are roughly equal but Pierce gets three times as many assist per minute.

Only one person on the team has an ast/to ratio worse than Green - Chris Wilcox. As far as SFs go Green is one of a handful (Beasley, old friend Gerald Green, Jan Vesely, Earl Clark, etc.) who turn the ball over more often than getting an assist.

On those metrics Bradley is not great but not awful either. His numbers are similar to the Ray Allen/ Jimmer Fredette/ JJ Redick profile, in that he doesn't turn it over all that much but also rarely creates for others. The difference of course is that those guys are much better shooters.

Terry doesn't look bad stats-wise but my eyes tell me that his TOs are often costlier than average. I have no data to back that up.

Bottom line is that we just don't have too many guys who are good ball handlers for their positions.

Turnovers and assist to turnover ratio aren't indicators of handle.  Ballhandling ability plays a role but those things are more reflective of decision making, risk taking and passing ability. 

Absent of metrics from those swanky high tech cameras that can track player's speed, acceleration, how times they dribble and etc, ballhandling is a scouting judgment, not number based.

Well, what someone means by "ball handling" can differ.

I personally have a pretty wide view of what ball-handling means. I really don't care if someone dribbles like Curly Neal but coughs the ball up in traffic every time he drives for some other reason, and never creates for others. I care about the turnover.

Even on a narrow definition of "ball-handling" I would argue that players who turn the ball over more, while having similar offensive roles, are worse ball-handlers than those who turn the ball over less. That's why I mentioned assists - Rondo turns the ball over more often than Green, but that's because he has a completely different role.

But whatever you want to call it, the TO and assist numbers are relevant for the broader discussion about Green's offensive limitations.

[Celtics4ever]

He absolutely does not have suspect handle (even more so for a man his size). Avery Bradley has suspect handle (and Terry is pretty close to him in that regard, too).

In the game last night I caught at least one times where he lost his dribble, that = suspect handle.  I've seen him do it several times this year.  He won't be winning any skills competition.

I would call him average ballhandler to below average.   Thing is this could be remedied easily with some work and then he would have an edge because he is fast.

[thirstyboots18]

We can't all agree to anything.  Can we agree on that?

No

[CFAN38]

I think green is a solid #3 option who becomes the #2 against the right matchups.

In terms of 1,2,3 and 4 options I want to bring up the fact that the 03-04 Pistons had the following

#1  Hamilton  17.6 pts
#2  Billups   16.9 pts
#3  R Wallace 13.7 pts
#4  prince    10.3 pts
#5  Okur      9.6 pts
    Williamson 9.5 pts
    Wallace    9.5 pts

I wanted to elaborate on what I had previously started to say..

Looking back at the champion pistons and this season at the nuggets (number little off because Chandler has missed games due to injury)

#1 Lawson    17 ppg
#2 Gallinari 16 ppg
#3 Iguodala  13 ppg
#4 Chandler  12 ppg
   Faried    12 ppg
   Brewer    12 ppg
   Miller     9 ppg
   Mcgee      9 ppg
   Koufas     8 ppg

Both of these teams either won or are winning in the NBA with what I would consider 2 #2 scoring options and a lot of #4 option guys. This is how I see the Cs operating offensively in the post PP KG era.

In other posts I have mentioned how I think a key (aside from the health of RR and Sully) to the post PP+KG celts is the danny finds a lengthy athletic 5 to pair with Sully , a 6'5+ scoring 2/3 to be the 6th man and a 4/5 with length to be the 7th man. If this happens I could see a future offensive break down similar to this.

Rondo  16ppg (I expect increased scoring post PP)
Green  15ppg
Sully  13ppg
AB     12ppg
6th    12ppg (scoring 2/3)
center 11ppg
7th     9ppg (4/5 to create 3 man big rotation)
8th     8ppg (3pt shooting 3 or 3/4)

This would basicly give the Cs 2 #2s in RR and Green. Sully, AB and the 6th man become #3/4s.     


 

[wdleehi]

I think green is a solid #3 option who becomes the #2 against the right matchups.

In terms of 1,2,3 and 4 options I want to bring up the fact that the 03-04 Pistons had the following

#1  Hamilton  17.6 pts
#2  Billups   16.9 pts
#3  R Wallace 13.7 pts
#4  prince    10.3 pts
#5  Okur      9.6 pts
    Williamson 9.5 pts
    Wallace    9.5 pts

I wanted to elaborate on what I had previously started to say..

Looking back at the champion pistons and this season at the nuggets (number little off because Chandler has missed games due to injury)

#1 Lawson    17 ppg
#2 Gallinari 16 ppg
#3 Iguodala  13 ppg
#4 Chandler  12 ppg
   Faried    12 ppg
   Brewer    12 ppg
   Miller     9 ppg
   Mcgee      9 ppg
   Koufas     8 ppg

Both of these teams either won or are winning in the NBA with what I would consider 2 #2 scoring options and a lot of #4 option guys. This is how I see the Cs operating offensively in the post PP KG era.

In other posts I have mentioned how I think a key (aside from the health of RR and Sully) to the post PP+KG celts is the danny finds a lengthy athletic 5 to pair with Sully , a 6'5+ scoring 2/3 to be the 6th man and a 4/5 with length to be the 7th man. If this happens I could see a future offensive break down similar to this.

Rondo  16ppg (I expect increased scoring post PP)
Green  15ppg
Sully  13ppg
AB     12ppg
6th    12ppg (scoring 2/3)
center 11ppg
7th     9ppg (4/5 to create 3 man big rotation)
8th     8ppg (3pt shooting 3 or 3/4)

This would basicly give the Cs 2 #2s in RR and Green. Sully, AB and the 6th man become #3/4s.   

Problems with this is that Wallace had the skills and ability to be a 20 point scorer but sacrificed his game to be part of the team.  That isn't the case with Green. 

[BballTim]

whenever green starts he tends to get 20ppg but its in the flow of the game it seems. I think he can be a scorer..but he's not your "go to guy" in clutch situations

for us right now thats pierce

I think a better question is in the future, Is rondo your #1?? or is he a #2 and we need to find a #1?

I would like to see Rondo become more of a scorer next year average something like 17ppg...we know he CAN do it as he has done in the playoffs..but its whether he wants to or not

Rondo certainly is not a #1 option.  I wouldn't even want him as my #2 option offensively.  He can be very dominant as a scorer, but he's too inconsistent and lacks the versatility to do it night in and night out.

He'll score 30 one night, then 10 the next 4 nights.

Rondo's best offensive talents are his ability to drive and score on tricky layups, and his ability to hit the wide open jumper.  Both of these depend on having other scorers on the floor to draw attention away from him.  If Rondo was your #1 scoring option teams would just defend against the drive and force him to take contested jumpers, and he'd struggle immensely.

His past strength has come from the fact that people can't do that, because we have guys like Pierce, Green, KG and Terry who demand defensive attention.  This is why Rondo will always be a complimentary player, never a number one option.

This will only change if he significantly improves his three point shot ans free throw shooting to the point where people need to at least respect that aspect of his game.

 I think Rondo could be a decent 3 point shooter. His jump shot range was getting fairly close to the line this season. But if players cover him more closely on jump shots that just makes everything else he does (like get into the lane and pass) easier.

[kozlodoev]

He absolutely does not have suspect handle (even more so for a man his size). Avery Bradley has suspect handle (and Terry is pretty close to him in that regard, too).

In the game last night I caught at least one times where he lost his dribble, that = suspect handle.  I've seen him do it several times this year.  He won't be winning any skills competition.

I would call him average ballhandler to below average.   Thing is this could be remedied easily with some work and then he would have an edge because he is fast.

Wow, he lost his dribble once. Tough crowd.

[slamtheking]

He absolutely does not have suspect handle (even more so for a man his size). Avery Bradley has suspect handle (and Terry is pretty close to him in that regard, too).

In the game last night I caught at least one times where he lost his dribble, that = suspect handle.  I've seen him do it several times this year.  He won't be winning any skills competition.

I would call him average ballhandler to below average.   Thing is this could be remedied easily with some work and then he would have an edge because he is fast.

Wow, he lost his dribble once. Tough crowd.

can only imagine the level of critique for PP considering he loses it 3-4 times a game

[thirstyboots18]

I don't understand the premise, I guess.  Are you saying Jeff Green should not get the ball, or if he gets it should not shoot because he should not be better than a third option?  I think he should think of himself as  being the #1 option every time he is on the floor and be aggressive, but passing when someone else has a better shot.  I feel the same way about every member of the team.  I don't want them to defer when they have the better or uncontested shot...even if they miss.

How we  feel about it is beside the point, though.  How the player, the team, and the coach feels about it is all important.

[CelticConcourse]

He could easily be a second option.

[Boris Badenov]

I don't understand the premise, I guess.  Are you saying Jeff Green should not get the ball, or if he gets it should not shoot because he should not be better than a third option?  I think he should think of himself as  being the #1 option every time he is on the floor and be aggressive, but passing when someone else has a better shot.  I feel the same way about every member of the team.  I don't want them to defer when they have the better or uncontested shot...even if they miss.

How we  feel about it is beside the point, though.  How the player, the team, and the coach feels about it is all important.

I view the question as being about whether Green could carry the offensive load, presumably on a good team, as the #1 or #2 option without more than one other "plus" offensive player around him. It's not really about his current role on this team.

I personally think that if he were a #2 option on offense, defenses would game-plan him far more than they do now, and it would be pretty easy to shut him down. His offensive repertoire is just too limited for him to be successful if a defense keys on him.

I mean, at this point the game plan would be "play him to dribble right and drive all the way to the basket, and give extra help on that side." If you take that away, what else can he do?

Let's hope this summer he develops either a mid-range pull-up off the dribble (a la Pierce), so he can exploit his quickness and length against PFs, or a solid post-up move to take advantage of smaller guys. If he could do both, he would be much harder to handle.

[gar]

Jeff has a higher shooting percentage than PP. So question may be if you can run the offense through JG? Rondo and Pierce are better at this so he is a top scoring option next to KG an PP; But don't see us running the offense thru him like we do for KG or PP.