(Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate

[BballTim]

While this may be working during the regular season, we're going to struggle in the postseason.  To win a title, you need a superstar (unless you're the 2004 Detroit Pistons), and Rondo was that guy for us.

To win a title you need a superstar...well...but Rondo is not the superstar who can give you the title. Rondo is a great point guard but not a superstar, not  a game closer or kind of player to resolve the games like Lebron, Durant, Koby etc. There is no team during all NBA history winning NBA title based on point guard. See the Chicago of 90s, who based the team on 2 big guys: Jordan and Pippen

  If Rondo was a little healthier in 2010 he'd have given us a title. Clearly he's capable of it despite your claims to the contrary.

We lost 2010 because of poor rebounding, not because of Rondo...

  Claiming we lost a 7 game series (or a 4 point game) for one reason and one reason only is fairly nonsensical.

[BballTim]

who cares about wins ?...... long as Rondo makes highlight film with triple doubles

Sad, isn't it?

  Yes, because as far as you two know we rarely if ever win games where Rondo has triple doubles.

[BballTim]

  So for whatever reason, the team was in a slump. You can see it in PP and KG and Terry's numbers for various months. They're no longer in that slump. So considering how well Green is playing and our main offensive players are all playing better we should be *better* than we were earlier this year. We're not. That's because we're missing our best player.

This is just getting ugly, Timmy. It just smells like blind denial all the way around: who the team was with Rondo, who they are without him, your total disregard for results, even who their best player is... the entire POV.

I hope they keep getting worse without Rondo 

  It is blind denial, but that's ok. You might not be able to refute the points that I make but at least you know how to put a smiley face in your post.

[kozlodoev]

We lost 2010 because of poor rebounding, not because of Rondo...

  Claiming we lost a 7 game series (or a 4 point game) for one reason and one reason only is fairly nonsensical.

Yup, the 23 ORB we gave up in game 7 (and the average of 14.5 ORB in losses this series) are just nonsensical. If Rondo was just a little bit healthier, that would have just solved all our problems.

 

[BballTim]

We lost 2010 because of poor rebounding, not because of Rondo...

  Claiming we lost a 7 game series (or a 4 point game) for one reason and one reason only is fairly nonsensical.

Yup, the 23 ORB we gave up in game 7 (and the average of 14.5 ORB in losses this series) are just nonsensical. If Rondo was just a little bit healthier, that would have just solved all our problems.

 

  Rondo had some kind of leg or back injury in the Orlando series. Before that he was averaging 17/6/11 and shot 50% or better in half his games. We won 11 of 14 playoff games up to that point. After that he went for 14/5/7 and shot 50% or better twice in 10 games. We went 4-6 in the playoffs after his injury. It had a fairly drastic effect on our play.

[pearljammer10]

Fact. We win 100% of the games KG misses this year. Fact.

I hope that settles all debates.

Love it. Do we need yet ANOTHER ridiculous Rondo thread that makes no sense?

Fact the Celtics won 16 rings without KG or Pierce.

Fact KG and Pierce only have one together.

To my ultimate conclusion, this means thats KG and Pierce are not worthy of being hall of famers and we should find other players to replace them that will get out championship winning percentage up.

I mean, this has to be a joke right?

[wdleehi]

If we were all honest with ourselves, this team hasn't been the same since Scali left.




And look at the Bulls now that Scali left them. 

[ssspence]

Timmay! You've made 6 of the last 8 posts in this thread. Take it easy on the coffee!!

[Celtics18]

Correlation does not prove causation.

Correlation: The Celtics have played better without Rondo.

Causation: The Celtics have played better because they are without Rondo.

There are too many independent variables to prove that Rondo is/was the cause, here are a few, Jeff Green's return from heart surgery, the change in the structure of the offense, the return of Avery Bradley, the new emphasis on going small due to the Sullinger injury.

I think Rondo can come back next year and lead the offense we are currently running (more ball movement and pushing the tempo) even more effectively than it is being run now.

TP for a smart post.  It's about time someone pointed out the fact that there is a difference between correlation and causation. 

[BballTim]

Timmay! You've made 6 of the last 8 posts in this thread. Take it easy on the coffee!!

  Haha. There were a lot of posts between the time I shut my computer off last night and turned it on this morning.

[ssspence]

Timmay! You've made 6 of the last 8 posts in this thread. Take it easy on the coffee!!

  Haha. There were a lot of posts between the time I shut my computer off last night and turned it on this morning.

Nice. You are definitely flying the Rondo flag... I give you credit for that. TP.

[Celtics18]

Rondo is such a downgrade over the backcourt we have right now that what he does to set up the offense isnt worth losing the defensive intensity over.

This is absolutely, 100%, untrue.  The defense was not worse with a backcourt of Rondo and Bradley than it has been with a backcourt of Bradley and Lee.  The defense has been very, very good with both those backcourt combinations.  According to the numbers at Basketball Reference, the team has been giving up 100 points per 100 possessions with Bradley starting alongside either of Rondo or Lee this season.

Last year when Bradley was inserted into the starting lineup, the defense was even better to close out the season, like historically good, giving up around 95 points per 100 possessions.  Of course that historically good defensive stretch featured a backcourt of Rondo and Bradley.

[BballTim]

No they are not.

Avery Bradley's return has come with a huge improvement in our defense.  Other players have just started playing better.  Look at Jeff Green especially. There are many factors.

We are winning because of our defense right now.

Are there things to take form this streak going forward and how Rondo should integrate into the team?  Yes.  But how some people act like Rondo was literally a net negative for this team is unbelievable.

We got a good improvement to our defense when Bradley came back.  We got a GREAT improvement to our defense when Lee and AB started spending big minutes on the court together in the starting lineup.

Other players started playing better the instantly Rondo went down - it was like a switch was flipped.  The intensity, the ball movement, the sharing, the confidence of everybody on the team improved, and it was clearly evident to anybody who watched those games.  The change was instant the second Rondo was out.  I would argue those guys are all playing better BECAUSE Rondo went down. 

  I think the guys that were playing better in February after Rondo went down were PP and Jet (who were injured earlier and played their best ball of the year with Rondo in Nov), Green (who's numbers improved quite a bit from Dec to Jan while Rondo was playing), Bradley (who was coming back from a long layoff and had a rib injury in Jan) and Lee, who's play improved in Feb, (11 ppg on 48% shooting) the first 9 games of the month but has tailed off (7.6 ppg on 40% shooting) since.

  So out of the group of players who played well with Rondo when healthy or started to play well before Rondo got injured or were rusty from a long layoff or were hot for a few games and then cooled back off, how many of them were definitely playing better BECAUSE Rondo went out, and how many of them might have been playing better for OTHER reasons? Or did I miss any players who improved after Rondo went out?

[kozlodoev]

We lost 2010 because of poor rebounding, not because of Rondo...

  Claiming we lost a 7 game series (or a 4 point game) for one reason and one reason only is fairly nonsensical.

Yup, the 23 ORB we gave up in game 7 (and the average of 14.5 ORB in losses this series) are just nonsensical. If Rondo was just a little bit healthier, that would have just solved all our problems.

 

  Rondo had some kind of leg or back injury in the Orlando series. Before that he was averaging 17/6/11 and shot 50% or better in half his games. We won 11 of 14 playoff games up to that point. After that he went for 14/5/7 and shot 50% or better twice in 10 games. We went 4-6 in the playoffs after his injury. It had a fairly drastic effect on our play.

What you're showing is largely an artifact of a Cleveland series where he averaged 20 and 11.

Take the series out, and he's the same guy in the finals that he was in the first round against Miami (14 pts, 6 rebounds, 8-10 assists per game).

 

[BballTim]

Rondo is such a downgrade over the backcourt we have right now that what he does to set up the offense isnt worth losing the defensive intensity over.

This is absolutely, 100%, untrue.  The defense was not worse with a backcourt of Rondo and Bradley than it has been with a backcourt of Bradley and Lee.  The defense has been very, very good with both those backcourt combinations.  According to the numbers at Basketball Reference, the team has been giving up 100 points per 100 possessions with Bradley starting alongside either of Rondo or Lee this season.

Last year when Bradley was inserted into the starting lineup, the defense was even better to close out the season, like historically good, giving up around 95 points per 100 possessions.  Of course that historically good defensive stretch featured a backcourt of Rondo and Bradley.

  People were talking about Rondo having bad defensive +/- numbers earlier in the year but the main culprit was his spending the most time on the court while KG was on the bench of the four regular guards.