Author Topic: Kyrie > Rondo  (Read 44165 times)

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Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #75 on: January 23, 2013, 10:05:21 AM »

Offline StartOrien

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Haven't read through the thread, but as for the title... not really news.

30 out of 30 NBA GMs would take Irving over Rondo if they were building a team from the ground up.

Thanks for your personal, completely unfounded, opinion.

It's his personal opinion, but I question how unfounded it is.

A couple of years ago, Danny tried to move Rondo for Steph Curry, and was rebuffed.  Similarly, New Orleans indicated it had no interest in Rondo, despite him being on a very good contract relative to his talent.

Now, that's just two GMs out of 30, but I get the sense that the league is moving in the direction of guys who can create their own offense.
I agree that most GM's would probably take Irving over Rondo but that's because the entire league has been transformed by the "shooting guard that can't play shooting guard because he's not big enough but is a great passer for a shooting guard so let's make him a point guard" syndrome.

Irving, Rose, Westbrook, Curry, Ellis, Lillard, Walker, Robinson, Hill, Jennings, etc.

The trend is to have a PG that can score first, shoot efficiently from three second, pass third.

That's not my type of PG. A huge amount of NBA GMs might love that. I don't.

But Nick,

Don't you think that Rondo's deficiencies as a shooter kills this team's offense? I like a pass first point guard myself, but I think the ability to hit an open shot at that position is more important than being a great facilitator.

Rondo's been the point guard for this team for years, with 3 hall of fame players, and each year it's been in the bottom half of the league in offense.

Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #76 on: January 23, 2013, 10:07:01 AM »

Offline celtsfan84

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Haven't read through the thread, but as for the title... not really news.

30 out of 30 NBA GMs would take Irving over Rondo if they were building a team from the ground up.

Thanks for your personal, completely unfounded, opinion.

It's his personal opinion, but I question how unfounded it is.

A couple of years ago, Danny tried to move Rondo for Steph Curry, and was rebuffed.  Similarly, New Orleans indicated it had no interest in Rondo, despite him being on a very good contract relative to his talent.

Now, that's just two GMs out of 30, but I get the sense that the league is moving in the direction of guys who can create their own offense.
I agree that most GM's would probably take Irving over Rondo but that's because the entire league has been transformed by the "shooting guard that can't play shooting guard because he's not big enough but is a great passer for a shooting guard so let's make him a point guard" syndrome.

Irving, Rose, Westbrook, Curry, Ellis, Lillard, Walker, Robinson, Hill, Jennings, etc.

The trend is to have a PG that can score first, shoot efficiently from three second, pass third.

That's not my type of PG. A huge amount of NBA GMs might love that. I don't.

Different styles of players can win games and championships.  Chauncey Billups and Tony Parker won titles as score first PGs.  Derek Fisher and Mario Chalmers won titles as role players on great teams.  There really is no magic formula for winning titles as a point guard.

I don't have a type of PG.  I'd gladly take the best player available if I were a GM (or the guy that fit my team best), regardless of whatever label you may want to slap onto him.

Scoring isn't a sin anyway, after all, the team that scores the most points wins every game I've ever seen.  The days of Bob Cousy are long over.

Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #77 on: January 23, 2013, 10:07:13 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Discuss...

Good game for Rondo, but Kyrie was at another level tonight.

  Kirie was on another level tonight. But what if he's not on a career night, hits a more typical 11 of 24 and the Cavs lose the game? What if the Celts *can* hit the broad side of a barn, hit their typical percentage of shots, Rondo ends up with a triple double and the Celts win by double digits even with Irving scoring 40? Are you still going to claim that Irving's better? I guess it comes down to how much more you value scoring than every other skill in a point guard.

  For the record, I'm a pretty big Irving fan. I still think he's lacking in some skills but I'd say he's probably the best shooting/scoring pg in the league and he's a fairly elite clutch scorer. But having said that, when he's not scoring (like the 2nd and 3rd quarters last night) he contributes little to a team. Rondo did little to no scoring in those periods either but was still getting rebounds, running the offense, getting assists and the like. Rondo can take over games without scoring, Kirie (from what I've seen) doesn't contribute much when he isn't scoring.

Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #78 on: January 23, 2013, 10:10:11 AM »

Offline StartOrien

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I kid, of course.

Give me Irving, and I don't have to think about it much.

EDIT: So I dont' come off bandwagon, I actually did a 9 on 9 'draft' with a friend. For a billion dollars best in the NBA, 1 game only, and Irving was my reserve Point Guard.

Who was your starting point guard?  I can guess who, but one other poster here seems to think he's the worst PG around.

I'm going off the top of my head here so I might mess his team up a little but I think it was

(Me)

CP3 / Irving
Kobe / Iguodala
Durant
KG / Dirk
D12 / Duncan

(Him)

Westbrook / Curry
Wade / Harden
Melo
Lebron / Love / Z-Bo
Chandler

Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #79 on: January 23, 2013, 10:13:27 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Tonight Kyrie for sure.

If you are picking a PG for the playoffs I'd take Rondo.

Irving is pretty amazing and scary though.

He can pretty much do anything on the court and is never fazed or rushed on anything. He was playing against Bradley for a decent amount of possessions and just took his time and made plays.

I'd take Kyrie over Rondo in the playoffs pretty much no question unless I had multiple elite scoring options for Rondo to pass to.

  All Rondo needs is a few players that can score in transition and players that can hit open jumpers. We didn't have elite scoring options in the playoffs last year and we made it to the ECF.

KG averaged 19 a game, shooting 50% in last year's playoffs.  Paul also averaged 19 a game. 

KG looked pretty elite to me in last year's playoffs.

   The bulk of KG's baskets were open jumpers and an extremely high percentage of his shots were off of assists from Rondo. Not to rag on Paul (who was playing through an injury) but he shot under 40% for the playoffs. I love those two players, but people who are calling them elite scorers haven't updated their scouting reports in the last few years.

Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #80 on: January 23, 2013, 10:15:47 AM »

Offline StartOrien

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Tonight Kyrie for sure.

If you are picking a PG for the playoffs I'd take Rondo.

Irving is pretty amazing and scary though.

He can pretty much do anything on the court and is never fazed or rushed on anything. He was playing against Bradley for a decent amount of possessions and just took his time and made plays.

I'd take Kyrie over Rondo in the playoffs pretty much no question unless I had multiple elite scoring options for Rondo to pass to.

  All Rondo needs is a few players that can score in transition and players that can hit open jumpers. We didn't have elite scoring options in the playoffs last year and we made it to the ECF.

KG averaged 19 a game, shooting 50% in last year's playoffs.  Paul also averaged 19 a game. 

KG looked pretty elite to me in last year's playoffs.

   The bulk of KG's baskets were open jumpers and an extremely high percentage of his shots were off of assists from Rondo. Not to rag on Paul (who was playing through an injury) but he shot under 40% for the playoffs. I love those two players, but people who are calling them elite scorers haven't updated their scouting reports in the last few years.

That's severely underplaying what Garnett brought to this team. He was on another level last playoff, and many of his baskets - specifically in the Sixers and Hawks series - were baskets that came off of hard work in the post. Easy baskets they were not.

Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #81 on: January 23, 2013, 10:16:10 AM »

Offline pearljammer10

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Irving is a stud no doubt but there is no way in Hades he is better than Rondo.

Irving can flat out score there is no question about it. But he's getting 19 shots per game to Rondos 12 and he is playing on a team that doesnt have many other options to score. Irving can put the ball in the hoop but as far as commanding an offense, there should be no comparison.
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PG:Tony Parker/Mo Williams
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Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #82 on: January 23, 2013, 10:16:32 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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Are you still going to claim that Irving's better?

Yep.

I think Rondo's ability to "run an offense" has become vastly over-rated.  I wonder how much better our team would be if we had more people moving the ball.


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Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #83 on: January 23, 2013, 10:18:52 AM »

Offline BballTim

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If we had traded Rondo for Kyrie at the beginning of the year, would our record be better, worse, or the same?  Would we have a better or worse shot in the playoffs?

I think we'd be better with him.  His ability to create his own offense is exactly what our aging stars need to take some of the pressure off of them.

  We might be playing better now, we would probably be playing worse earlier in the season when Rondo was on his assist streak. But I'm not really a big fan of using "who would do more for a crappy team" to pick my point guard.

  And we'd be better off in the playoffs with Rondo.

Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #84 on: January 23, 2013, 10:20:26 AM »

Offline celtsfan84

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Tonight Kyrie for sure.

If you are picking a PG for the playoffs I'd take Rondo.

Irving is pretty amazing and scary though.

He can pretty much do anything on the court and is never fazed or rushed on anything. He was playing against Bradley for a decent amount of possessions and just took his time and made plays.

I'd take Kyrie over Rondo in the playoffs pretty much no question unless I had multiple elite scoring options for Rondo to pass to.

  All Rondo needs is a few players that can score in transition and players that can hit open jumpers. We didn't have elite scoring options in the playoffs last year and we made it to the ECF.

KG averaged 19 a game, shooting 50% in last year's playoffs.  Paul also averaged 19 a game. 

KG looked pretty elite to me in last year's playoffs.

   The bulk of KG's baskets were open jumpers and an extremely high percentage of his shots were off of assists from Rondo. Not to rag on Paul (who was playing through an injury) but he shot under 40% for the playoffs. I love those two players, but people who are calling them elite scorers haven't updated their scouting reports in the last few years.

I'd say your imaginary scouting reports are pretty poor.  Maybe they only have player ages and ignore their contributions?

As others have noted, you are greatly underestimating KG's contributions last year.  And Paul shot a poor percentage in last year's playoffs, but mitigated that by getting to the line (6 times a game, more than Westbrook and 1 less than Durant).  The only players to get to the line more in the playoffs than Paul were Kobe, LeBron, Durant, Carmelo, and Wade.  I'd call those players elite scorers.

Getting to the line is a valuable skill for an elite player.  You might want to update that fact on your Rajon Rondo scouting report.

Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #85 on: January 23, 2013, 10:20:35 AM »

Offline ssspence

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Are you still going to claim that Irving's better?

Yep.

I think Rondo's ability to "run an offense" has become vastly over-rated.  I wonder how much better our team would be if we had more people moving the ball.

co-sign.
Mike

(My name is not Mike)

Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #86 on: January 23, 2013, 10:22:13 AM »

Offline celtsfan84

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Are you still going to claim that Irving's better?

Yep.

I think Rondo's ability to "run an offense" has become vastly over-rated.  I wonder how much better our team would be if we had more people moving the ball.

co-sign.

co-sign your co-sign.

Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #87 on: January 23, 2013, 10:26:03 AM »

Offline celticslove

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Are you still going to claim that Irving's better?

Yep.

I think Rondo's ability to "run an offense" has become vastly over-rated.  I wonder how much better our team would be if we had more people moving the ball.

co-sign.

co-sign your co-sign.
count me in

Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #88 on: January 23, 2013, 10:28:01 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Tonight Kyrie for sure.

If you are picking a PG for the playoffs I'd take Rondo.

Irving is pretty amazing and scary though.

He can pretty much do anything on the court and is never fazed or rushed on anything. He was playing against Bradley for a decent amount of possessions and just took his time and made plays.

I'd take Kyrie over Rondo in the playoffs pretty much no question unless I had multiple elite scoring options for Rondo to pass to.

  All Rondo needs is a few players that can score in transition and players that can hit open jumpers. We didn't have elite scoring options in the playoffs last year and we made it to the ECF.

KG averaged 19 a game, shooting 50% in last year's playoffs.  Paul also averaged 19 a game. 

KG looked pretty elite to me in last year's playoffs.

   The bulk of KG's baskets were open jumpers and an extremely high percentage of his shots were off of assists from Rondo. Not to rag on Paul (who was playing through an injury) but he shot under 40% for the playoffs. I love those two players, but people who are calling them elite scorers haven't updated their scouting reports in the last few years.

That's severely underplaying what Garnett brought to this team. He was on another level last playoff, and many of his baskets - specifically in the Sixers and Hawks series - were baskets that came off of hard work in the post. Easy baskets they were not.

  He averaged less than 2 unassisted baskets a game. KG brings a lot to the table, just not elite scoring. I don't see why this is really in dispute.

Re: Kyrie > Rondo
« Reply #89 on: January 23, 2013, 10:29:11 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Rondo's been the point guard for this team for years, with 3 hall of fame players, and each year it's been in the bottom half of the league in offense.


  ...mainly because of a lack of offensive rebounding.