Author Topic: ESPN: Cousy, Sam Jones, others shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame  (Read 10232 times)

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ESPN: Cousy, Sam Jones, others shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame
« on: December 16, 2012, 10:12:52 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Statistics are interesting and useful things.  Advanced metrics are often even more interesting and informative, and I've appreciated that terms such as "offensive rating", "effective field goal percentage" and "rebound rate" have entered the vernacular of basketball fans.

Sometimes, though, there's an over-reliance on statistics and metrics that make absolutely no sense.  Analysts who have never watched a player play make conclusions about that play devoid of context.

Case in point, ESPN The Magazine's recent re-organizing of the Basketball HOF based upon Win Shares and "dominance".  We learn that Kareem and Wilt are the most "Hall worthy" players in NBA history.  That's arguable, but fine, but I'm open-minded.  Where I'm not open-minded is the treatment of certain Celtics players.

We learn from ESPN that Bob Cousy is not worthy of the Hall.  Never mind that Bob Cousy was a 13-time All-Star, an MVP, finished in the top-8 in MVP voting seven times, led the league in assists eight straight times, and won five titles.  No, according to ESPN's analysts, he's not HOF worthy.  In fact, he's not even that close to earning induction.  Who did make the cut?  Kevin Johnson, for one.

Same thing for 10-time champion Sam Jones or 8-time all-star Bill Sharman.  I won't quibble too much about the exclusion of K.C. Jones, Frank Ramsay, or Dennis Johnson if we're trying to narrow the standards for inclusion.  However, I have a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that Reggie Miller is more "Hall worthy" than Larry Bird or Magic Johnson, or that Artis Gilmore is more dominant than Bill Russell or Shaquille O'Neal.

Obviously, junk like this is published to generate debate.  However, if the formula used by ESPN comes out with so many off the wall results, they should scrap it and start over.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 11:00:54 AM by Roy H. »


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Re: ESPN: Cousy, Sam Jones, others shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2012, 10:58:46 AM »

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The link doesn't work. It sent me to a newspaper (BangorDailyNews) about gun sales growing due to home invasions.

Re: ESPN: Cousy, Sam Jones, others shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2012, 11:00:40 AM »

Online Roy H.

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The link doesn't work. It sent me to a newspaper (BangorDailyNews) about gun sales growing due to home invasions.

Oops.  Wrong link.  Try it now.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: ESPN: Cousy, Sam Jones, others shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2012, 11:04:13 AM »

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The link doesn't work. It sent me to a newspaper (BangorDailyNews) about gun sales growing due to home invasions.

Oops.  Wrong link.  Try it now.

Great. Thank you. Sounds interesting.

Re: ESPN: Cousy, Sam Jones, others shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2012, 11:24:38 AM »

Offline BballTim

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  I guess we now have a "go to" reference point to back up the statement that you can't evaluate players by stats alone.

Re: ESPN: Cousy, Sam Jones, others shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2012, 11:24:57 AM »

Offline Kwhit10

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I've been turned off by a lot of ESPN's articles and have really phased out reading their actual articles and pretty much using the site exclusively for scores or stats.

I don't miss watching ESPN outside of televised events, as most of their talk-programming is to generate debate with out-there personalities.

With that said a lot of their "analysis" has generally supported newer generations as opposed to the earlier generations of the NBA.

Re: ESPN: Cousy, Sam Jones, others shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2012, 11:30:38 AM »

Offline Brendan

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Lol.

For years we've been told Russell wasn't GOAT because he played with hall of famers, now those hall of famers aren't worthy?

Re: ESPN: Cousy, Sam Jones, others shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2012, 11:34:26 AM »

Offline Redz

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blasphemous blather
Yup

Re: ESPN: Cousy, Sam Jones, others shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2012, 11:41:47 AM »

Offline relja

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Who cares about stats and metrics? Fml, stupid ESPN.
When you lose, the easy part is to see who gives up. Giving up is very simple. You basically take your stuff and walk away. To continue to work and to continue to compete is one of the most difficult things, especially when you really don't have anything - KG

Re: ESPN: Cousy, Sam Jones, others shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2012, 11:44:52 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Who cares about stats and metrics?

Stats and metrics are interesting and oftentimes, informative.

Metrics like "win shares" are flawed, though, because they punish players who play with multiple great teammates. 


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Re: ESPN: Cousy, Sam Jones, others shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2012, 11:48:19 AM »

Offline pearljammer10

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Look who the writer is... Ross Marrinson... Cricket Cricket. Just some moron trying to make some waves to get blood boiling and make some sorta name for himself.

I mean does anyone really think Cousy deserves a Hall Nod or that Reggie freakin Miller (who is borderline hall worthy to begin with) is more worthy than Bird or Magic? Please.

Re: ESPN: Cousy, Sam Jones, others shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2012, 11:50:31 AM »

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I wonder how they valued the ABA stats. Those guys look quite high.

Re: ESPN: Cousy, Sam Jones, others shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2012, 11:51:22 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Why let it bother you, it's ESPN which is entertainment not news these days.

Re: ESPN: Cousy, Sam Jones, others shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2012, 11:54:45 AM »

Offline Redz

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Why let it bother you, it's ESPN which is entertainment not news these days.

Now THAT's Entertainmnent

Yup

Re: ESPN: Cousy, Sam Jones, others shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2012, 12:03:36 PM »

Offline jax_celtsfan

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Articles like these are what drive people to reject advanced metrics. They aren't intended to be the sole measure of a player. Stats like win shares should add to the breadth of information about a player, not define them.

"So with the help of stat guru Dean Oliver, we built a new Hall based on irrefutable analytics."

I can't even process how ridiculous that statement is, this article is garbage.