Author Topic: Team Chemistry and the Minutes Jam  (Read 4270 times)

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Re: Team Chemistry and the Minutes Jam
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2012, 11:47:38 AM »

Offline guava_wrench

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One thing that will be interesting to watch: our starting lineup continues to get lest potent while our bench gets more potent.

With KG and Pierce aging and slowing down, and with Ray gone (and no longer an all-star level player anyway), our starting lineup is far more watered down than it has been in past years. This means less of a need to rely on them throughout games. Now we have a pretty versatile bench, which can mean less of a need to keep Pierce or Rondo in with bench guys. When Avery is back and starting, we can play a bench of Lee/Terry/Green/Sully(or Bass)/Wilcox(or Darko or Collins) a lot longer than we could many of our past benches.

The down side is we still might need Rondo in against good defensive guards. It seems to me that Terry is forced to start the offense pretty deep when there is ball pressure. Hopefully Lee/Terry/Green can work all that out to get the offense initiated.

Ideally, Pierce and KG get as few minutes as possible to get a win. Barbosa become a change of pace guy that isn't needed every game once Bradley returns.

I'm just wondering, how many guys have we had who complained about minutes over the past 5 years? Is there any reason why we should be concerned with this?

Re: Team Chemistry and the Minutes Jam
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2012, 01:38:59 PM »

Offline rutzan

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is prescient the right word...lol...

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4698140/cs-pass-early-chemistry-test

C's pass early chemistry test

BOSTON -- Team chemistry was a hot topic for the Celtics prior to their trip to Europe at the beginning of training camp. With over half of the roster being new faces, it was clear to the likes of Rajon Rondo, Paul Pierce, and Kevin Garnett -- the only remaining players from the 2008 championship team -- that the new gelling process wouldn't be a one-day experience.

So the team didn't rush things, choosing to let off-the-court relationships flourish while utilizing the eight-game preseason schedule to cultivate their connections on the court. And with the exhibition slate now behind them and the real games about to begin, the Celtics were pleased to announce after Sunday's preseason finale that the team chemistry is right where they need it to be, with further growth still very much an option.

When asked to rate the team's cohesion level, on a 1 to 10 scale, Rondo simply offered, "10."

Garnett added: "Team chemistry is very, very high."

And it was Pierce, factoring in the recent addition of Leandro Barbosa, who stressed the team will continue to make strides in this area.

"Yeah, we've seen a lot of good, positive things. We're still building chemistry," Pierce said. "Chemistry, sometimes, doesn't happen overnight like it did in '08, so we're still trying to build that. When you look at the number of new players that we got, we're still trying to implement them. Adding Barbosa to the mix, we've still got to get him on the court, practice time, to understand what we're trying to do around here, so it's coming, though."

Some players, such as Brandon Bass and Courtney Lee, pointed to specific games to illustrate the strides the team has taken over the last three weeks. Consider the team's first exhibition game in Turkey, when the C's were routinely burned on pick-and-roll coverage and the offense lacked a certain fluidity. Fast forward to Boston's 115-85 thrashing of the Brooklyn Nets last Thursday, and there were practically no signs of the issues that plagued the team early on, as the Celtics were locked in defensively, pushing the ball in transition, and not hesitating to make the extra pass.

"From the first preseason game up until now, especially the Brooklyn game, we showed how we can have it clicking on all cylinders and getting everybody involved as well," Bass said.

"We're a lot better than our first preseason game," said Lee. "I mean, you can see it in a couple games, especially the last couple wins that we've got, against Brooklyn and New York, where the chemistry came into play late in that New York game, where we decided to get stops and execute. And then Brooklyn, we came out with a focus to execute and strap up on the defensive end. So, you can see the chemistry definitely getting better."

Defense was a sticking point for a handful of players, indicating that further on-court chemistry will be helped along by consistent improvement on that side of the ball. But the offensive end wasn't discounted, either. With a host of offensive options, both in the starting lineup and off the bench, Jeff Green said the team's willingness to bring forth a balance offensive attack showcased the faith he and his teammates have in one another.

"We were unselfish on offense," Green said. "I mean, we've got a lot of guys who can put up a lot of points on the board, and we're very unselfish. That shows that we have trust in our teammates, that they can make plays."

"We just got better. We got better every game," said rookie Jared Sullinger. "I mean, even though we had a couple down games, but we got better. As a team we showed spurts where [we did] what the coaches want, and then we showed that we can do it, so I think we're getting better every day."

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4698140/cs-pass-early-chemistry-test

Re: Team Chemistry and the Minutes Jam
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2012, 04:51:49 PM »

Offline celtics2

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One thing that will be interesting to watch: our starting lineup continues to get lest potent while our bench gets more potent.

With KG and Pierce aging and slowing down, and with Ray gone (and no longer an all-star level player anyway), our starting lineup is far more watered down than it has been in past years. This means less of a need to rely on them throughout games. Now we have a pretty versatile bench, which can mean less of a need to keep Pierce or Rondo in with bench guys. When Avery is back and starting, we can play a bench of Lee/Terry/Green/Sully(or Bass)/Wilcox(or Darko or Collins) a lot longer than we could many of our past benches.

The down side is we still might need Rondo in against good defensive guards. It seems to me that Terry is forced to start the offense pretty deep when there is ball pressure. Hopefully Lee/Terry/Green can work all that out to get the offense initiated.

Ideally, Pierce and KG get as few minutes as possible to get a win. Barbosa become a change of pace guy that isn't needed every game once Bradley returns.

I'm just wondering, how many guys have we had who complained about minutes over the past 5 years? Is there any reason why we should be concerned with this?

Rest assured, Doc will not go deep into the bench. He doesn't have the stomach for it. He talks big but won't walk it. 5 will need oxygen come Playoff time.

Re: Team Chemistry and the Minutes Jam
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2012, 06:11:10 PM »

Offline billysan

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One thing that will be interesting to watch: our starting lineup continues to get lest potent while our bench gets more potent.

With KG and Pierce aging and slowing down, and with Ray gone (and no longer an all-star level player anyway), our starting lineup is far more watered down than it has been in past years. This means less of a need to rely on them throughout games. Now we have a pretty versatile bench, which can mean less of a need to keep Pierce or Rondo in with bench guys. When Avery is back and starting, we can play a bench of Lee/Terry/Green/Sully(or Bass)/Wilcox(or Darko or Collins) a lot longer than we could many of our past benches.

The down side is we still might need Rondo in against good defensive guards. It seems to me that Terry is forced to start the offense pretty deep when there is ball pressure. Hopefully Lee/Terry/Green can work all that out to get the offense initiated.

Ideally, Pierce and KG get as few minutes as possible to get a win. Barbosa become a change of pace guy that isn't needed every game once Bradley returns.

I'm just wondering, how many guys have we had who complained about minutes over the past 5 years? Is there any reason why we should be concerned with this?

Rest assured, Doc will not go deep into the bench. He doesn't have the stomach for it. He talks big but won't walk it. 5 will need oxygen come Playoff time.

Disagree here, his past teams did not have anywhere near the talent this team does 1-10. After our starting 5 (Rondo, Bradley, Pierce, KG, and Bass), we will see playoff minutes for Green, Lee and Jet at minimum. Very likely Sullinger will also see a few minutes.

He will go at least 9 deep barring injury IMHO.
"First fix their hearts" -Eizo Shimabuku

Re: Team Chemistry and the Minutes Jam
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2012, 06:20:51 PM »

Offline MJohnnyboy

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One thing that will be interesting to watch: our starting lineup continues to get lest potent while our bench gets more potent.

With KG and Pierce aging and slowing down, and with Ray gone (and no longer an all-star level player anyway), our starting lineup is far more watered down than it has been in past years. This means less of a need to rely on them throughout games. Now we have a pretty versatile bench, which can mean less of a need to keep Pierce or Rondo in with bench guys. When Avery is back and starting, we can play a bench of Lee/Terry/Green/Sully(or Bass)/Wilcox(or Darko or Collins) a lot longer than we could many of our past benches.

The down side is we still might need Rondo in against good defensive guards. It seems to me that Terry is forced to start the offense pretty deep when there is ball pressure. Hopefully Lee/Terry/Green can work all that out to get the offense initiated.

Ideally, Pierce and KG get as few minutes as possible to get a win. Barbosa become a change of pace guy that isn't needed every game once Bradley returns.

I'm just wondering, how many guys have we had who complained about minutes over the past 5 years? Is there any reason why we should be concerned with this?

Rest assured, Doc will not go deep into the bench. He doesn't have the stomach for it. He talks big but won't walk it. 5 will need oxygen come Playoff time.

Disagree here, his past teams did not have anywhere near the talent this team does 1-10. After our starting 5 (Rondo, Bradley, Pierce, KG, and Bass), we will see playoff minutes for Green, Lee and Jet at minimum. Very likely Sullinger will also see a few minutes.

He will go at least 9 deep barring injury IMHO.

I see Darko and Wilcox probably getting more time than Sullinger because let's face it, Sully has been awful on defense. I like what he brings but he got owned by Chris Copeland twice.

Re: Team Chemistry and the Minutes Jam
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2012, 07:26:13 PM »

Offline billysan

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One thing that will be interesting to watch: our starting lineup continues to get lest potent while our bench gets more potent.

With KG and Pierce aging and slowing down, and with Ray gone (and no longer an all-star level player anyway), our starting lineup is far more watered down than it has been in past years. This means less of a need to rely on them throughout games. Now we have a pretty versatile bench, which can mean less of a need to keep Pierce or Rondo in with bench guys. When Avery is back and starting, we can play a bench of Lee/Terry/Green/Sully(or Bass)/Wilcox(or Darko or Collins) a lot longer than we could many of our past benches.

The down side is we still might need Rondo in against good defensive guards. It seems to me that Terry is forced to start the offense pretty deep when there is ball pressure. Hopefully Lee/Terry/Green can work all that out to get the offense initiated.

Ideally, Pierce and KG get as few minutes as possible to get a win. Barbosa become a change of pace guy that isn't needed every game once Bradley returns.

I'm just wondering, how many guys have we had who complained about minutes over the past 5 years? Is there any reason why we should be concerned with this?

Rest assured, Doc will not go deep into the bench. He doesn't have the stomach for it. He talks big but won't walk it. 5 will need oxygen come Playoff time.

Disagree here, his past teams did not have anywhere near the talent this team does 1-10. After our starting 5 (Rondo, Bradley, Pierce, KG, and Bass), we will see playoff minutes for Green, Lee and Jet at minimum. Very likely Sullinger will also see a few minutes.

He will go at least 9 deep barring injury IMHO.

I see Darko and Wilcox probably getting more time than Sullinger because let's face it, Sully has been awful on defense. I like what he brings but he got owned by Chris Copeland twice.
You could be right and if so, it will be a good thing I hope. I am not counting on Wilcox to be healthy enough or Darko to be productive enough to be playoff contributors.

I hope Sullinger does improve on the Pick n Roll defense with KG's help. Either way, I think we need his post scoring though.
"First fix their hearts" -Eizo Shimabuku

Re: Team Chemistry and the Minutes Jam
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2012, 08:50:24 PM »

Offline Jon

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This will be a tough issues throughout the year.  Usually most teams are only 8-9 players deep, so they can find their bench players more minutes by swinging them to multiple positions to get minutes.  Our problem is that we have at least one adequate backup at every position, and sometimes we have more. 

So yes, we can swing Jeff Green to the 4 to get him more minutes for PP.  But that will also take minutes from Sullinger and Bass. 

And in the same breath people talk about playing KG some at the 4 too. 

This is a great problem to have, but it will be tough for Doc to juggle. 

Re: Team Chemistry and the Minutes Jam
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2012, 10:57:20 PM »

Offline StartOrien

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I think it's manageable in the regular season w/ players willing to take reduced minutes for the greater good.  I could potentially see it being an issue in the playoffs if all players were healthy. Wouldn't mind that being an issue.

Pre-Bradley Regular Season

Rondo (37) / Terry (11)
Lee (25) / Terry (14) / Barbosa (9)
Pierce (30) / Green (18)
Bass (25) / Sullinger (11) / Green (12)
Garnett (30) / Sullinger (9) / Darko (9)

Bradley Regular Season

Rondo (37) / Terry (11)
Lee (20) / Bradley (20) / Terry (8) / Barbosa (DNP)

Think with a healthy squad Wilcox and Collins probably left out of the mix, but I'm sure they'll be needed for stretches.

Only issue I'd see, and again this is based off of theorizing everyone's healthy and no one gets traded, is the Jet playing less minutes than he's used to. Like others have suggested - if Lee works out, I see Ainge looking to move Bradley (probably for a 1st round pick).

Re: Team Chemistry and the Minutes Jam
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2012, 11:32:55 PM »

Offline syn2k12

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I think it's manageable in the regular season w/ players willing to take reduced minutes for the greater good.  I could potentially see it being an issue in the playoffs if all players were healthy. Wouldn't mind that being an issue.

Pre-Bradley Regular Season

Rondo (37) / Terry (11)
Lee (25) / Terry (14) / Barbosa (9)
Pierce (30) / Green (18)
Bass (25) / Sullinger (11) / Green (12)
Garnett (30) / Sullinger (9) / Darko (9)

Bradley Regular Season

Rondo (37) / Terry (11)
Lee (20) / Bradley (20) / Terry (8) / Barbosa (DNP)

Think with a healthy squad Wilcox and Collins probably left out of the mix, but I'm sure they'll be needed for stretches.

Only issue I'd see, and again this is based off of theorizing everyone's healthy and no one gets traded, is the Jet playing less minutes than he's used to. Like others have suggested - if Lee works out, I see Ainge looking to move Bradley (probably for a 1st round pick).

Why? Just Why? I don't understand why people insist on when we get talent we trade talent away? Especially the best on-ball defensively player in the league. Then especially for a 1st round pick when you never know if they will be good or not. Yes you trade talent when you are struggling and need certain pieces for now and for the future you do, but this team is not going to struggle. No need to disrupt the players either because we know trading away players can sometimes affect the play of our players. I remember how Rondo was when his buddy Perks got traded. We don't need that, this team is in good shape and we don't need to trade away.

Re: Team Chemistry and the Minutes Jam
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2012, 11:42:24 PM »

Offline bfrombleacher

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I think it's manageable in the regular season w/ players willing to take reduced minutes for the greater good.  I could potentially see it being an issue in the playoffs if all players were healthy. Wouldn't mind that being an issue.

Pre-Bradley Regular Season

Rondo (37) / Terry (11)
Lee (25) / Terry (14) / Barbosa (9)
Pierce (30) / Green (18)
Bass (25) / Sullinger (11) / Green (12)
Garnett (30) / Sullinger (9) / Darko (9)

Bradley Regular Season

Rondo (37) / Terry (11)
Lee (20) / Bradley (20) / Terry (8) / Barbosa (DNP)

Think with a healthy squad Wilcox and Collins probably left out of the mix, but I'm sure they'll be needed for stretches.

Only issue I'd see, and again this is based off of theorizing everyone's healthy and no one gets traded, is the Jet playing less minutes than he's used to. Like others have suggested - if Lee works out, I see Ainge looking to move Bradley (probably for a 1st round pick).

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2012/10/12/boston-celtics-training-camp-rondo.nba/index.html

Rondo talks about rest. Barbosa and Jet will play more than you'd expect.

Re: Team Chemistry and the Minutes Jam
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2012, 01:14:17 AM »

Offline nostar

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I don't agree with the minute lineups that I've seen so far. I think for the regular season it will vary based on the opponent. Here are some guidelines I'd guess.

Rondo (30-35)
Pierce (25)
Garnett (20)
Terry (15-20)

That leaves ~60 minutes for the guard positions. I think you'll see more Lee against teams with a taller shooting guard and more AB against teams with a star point guard or smaller two guard. I think Terry will be the bench point guard and play less minutes in the regular season than he will in the playoffs.

Pierce needs to stay healthy. We didn't have anyone to bail him out last season and by the end he was hurt and had nothing left. Jeff Green needs to play starter minutes off the bench. We'll see how ready he is to do that, on offense and defense.

Danny did a heck of a job getting big bodies for us to throw at the regular season schedule. Garnett is where the Celtics begin and end. If he's healthy going into the playoffs we are a championship team. If not we're a 4th seed who can't beat elite teams in a series. Darko/Collins/Wilcox will all play a role in keeping Garnett healthy and rested.

I'd guess you're going to see two full 5-man groups intermixing with each other for a 10 man rotation. Rondo/AB/Pierce/Bass/KG and Terry/Lee/Green/Sullinger/Darko would be by guess while Wilcox/Collins/Barbosa will see time against certain teams (big centers) or garbage time. Barbosa will see time while Bradley gets back from his injury but then he'll be buried on the bench I suspect. I don't see Doc going over 10-deep unless we play a team with a beefy center. Even then any more than 10 in the rotation seems unlikely.

Oh and for the record I don't think Bradley will be moved this season unless we're struggling. That's just my two-cents

Re: Team Chemistry and the Minutes Jam
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2012, 04:32:00 PM »

Offline StartOrien

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I think it's manageable in the regular season w/ players willing to take reduced minutes for the greater good.  I could potentially see it being an issue in the playoffs if all players were healthy. Wouldn't mind that being an issue.

Pre-Bradley Regular Season

Rondo (37) / Terry (11)
Lee (25) / Terry (14) / Barbosa (9)
Pierce (30) / Green (18)
Bass (25) / Sullinger (11) / Green (12)
Garnett (30) / Sullinger (9) / Darko (9)

Bradley Regular Season

Rondo (37) / Terry (11)
Lee (20) / Bradley (20) / Terry (8) / Barbosa (DNP)

Think with a healthy squad Wilcox and Collins probably left out of the mix, but I'm sure they'll be needed for stretches.

Only issue I'd see, and again this is based off of theorizing everyone's healthy and no one gets traded, is the Jet playing less minutes than he's used to. Like others have suggested - if Lee works out, I see Ainge looking to move Bradley (probably for a 1st round pick).

Why? Just Why? I don't understand why people insist on when we get talent we trade talent away? Especially the best on-ball defensively player in the league. Then especially for a 1st round pick when you never know if they will be good or not. Yes you trade talent when you are struggling and need certain pieces for now and for the future you do, but this team is not going to struggle. No need to disrupt the players either because we know trading away players can sometimes affect the play of our players. I remember how Rondo was when his buddy Perks got traded. We don't need that, this team is in good shape and we don't need to trade away.

I'm assuming that the Celtics aren't prepared to pay Bradley this next year because I think he's going to command a lot of money.

Re: Team Chemistry and the Minutes Jam
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2012, 04:35:55 PM »

Offline StartOrien

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I think it's manageable in the regular season w/ players willing to take reduced minutes for the greater good.  I could potentially see it being an issue in the playoffs if all players were healthy. Wouldn't mind that being an issue.

Pre-Bradley Regular Season

Rondo (37) / Terry (11)
Lee (25) / Terry (14) / Barbosa (9)
Pierce (30) / Green (18)
Bass (25) / Sullinger (11) / Green (12)
Garnett (30) / Sullinger (9) / Darko (9)

Bradley Regular Season

Rondo (37) / Terry (11)
Lee (20) / Bradley (20) / Terry (8) / Barbosa (DNP)

Think with a healthy squad Wilcox and Collins probably left out of the mix, but I'm sure they'll be needed for stretches.

Only issue I'd see, and again this is based off of theorizing everyone's healthy and no one gets traded, is the Jet playing less minutes than he's used to. Like others have suggested - if Lee works out, I see Ainge looking to move Bradley (probably for a 1st round pick).

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2012/10/12/boston-celtics-training-camp-rondo.nba/index.html

Rondo talks about rest. Barbosa and Jet will play more than you'd expect.

I think he'd like to take some more minutes off, but I'm not sure we can afford it for 13 minutes a game. Maybe when Bradley's back, but you're not going to want Jet & Barbosa playing together for extended periods of time.

Re: Team Chemistry and the Minutes Jam
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2012, 04:54:10 PM »

Offline billysan

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I don't agree with the minute lineups that I've seen so far. I think for the regular season it will vary based on the opponent. Here are some guidelines I'd guess.

Rondo (30-35)
Pierce (25)
Garnett (20)
Terry (15-20)

That leaves ~60 minutes for the guard positions. I think you'll see more Lee against teams with a taller shooting guard and more AB against teams with a star point guard or smaller two guard. I think Terry will be the bench point guard and play less minutes in the regular season than he will in the playoffs.

Pierce needs to stay healthy. We didn't have anyone to bail him out last season and by the end he was hurt and had nothing left. Jeff Green needs to play starter minutes off the bench. We'll see how ready he is to do that, on offense and defense.

Danny did a heck of a job getting big bodies for us to throw at the regular season schedule. Garnett is where the Celtics begin and end. If he's healthy going into the playoffs we are a championship team. If not we're a 4th seed who can't beat elite teams in a series. Darko/Collins/Wilcox will all play a role in keeping Garnett healthy and rested.

I'd guess you're going to see two full 5-man groups intermixing with each other for a 10 man rotation. Rondo/AB/Pierce/Bass/KG and Terry/Lee/Green/Sullinger/Darko would be by guess while Wilcox/Collins/Barbosa will see time against certain teams (big centers) or garbage time. Barbosa will see time while Bradley gets back from his injury but then he'll be buried on the bench I suspect. I don't see Doc going over 10-deep unless we play a team with a beefy center. Even then any more than 10 in the rotation seems unlikely.

Oh and for the record I don't think Bradley will be moved this season unless we're struggling. That's just my two-cents

I agree with the comment about lineups and minutes based upon opponents.

I would also add that 'If' Doc is able to go 10 deep as we hope he can, there is going to be an unexpected option open to him. The Celtics will be able to allow KG, Pierce and Rondo to sit on the bench for the entire 4th quarter when we have a decent lead because of the ability of this team's second unit to hold that lead.

There may be nights when we have a red hot bench unit against a weak team or one having a off night and we can hold KG and Pierce to as little as 10 mpg or so.

I'm thinking like the Kings, Houston, Toronto, Cleveland, Washington just to name a few.
"First fix their hearts" -Eizo Shimabuku

Re: Team Chemistry and the Minutes Jam
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2012, 05:04:22 PM »

Offline MJohnnyboy

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I think it's manageable in the regular season w/ players willing to take reduced minutes for the greater good.  I could potentially see it being an issue in the playoffs if all players were healthy. Wouldn't mind that being an issue.

Pre-Bradley Regular Season

Rondo (37) / Terry (11)
Lee (25) / Terry (14) / Barbosa (9)
Pierce (30) / Green (18)
Bass (25) / Sullinger (11) / Green (12)
Garnett (30) / Sullinger (9) / Darko (9)

Bradley Regular Season

Rondo (37) / Terry (11)
Lee (20) / Bradley (20) / Terry (8) / Barbosa (DNP)

Think with a healthy squad Wilcox and Collins probably left out of the mix, but I'm sure they'll be needed for stretches.

Only issue I'd see, and again this is based off of theorizing everyone's healthy and no one gets traded, is the Jet playing less minutes than he's used to. Like others have suggested - if Lee works out, I see Ainge looking to move Bradley (probably for a 1st round pick).

Why? Just Why? I don't understand why people insist on when we get talent we trade talent away? Especially the best on-ball defensively player in the league. Then especially for a 1st round pick when you never know if they will be good or not. Yes you trade talent when you are struggling and need certain pieces for now and for the future you do, but this team is not going to struggle. No need to disrupt the players either because we know trading away players can sometimes affect the play of our players. I remember how Rondo was when his buddy Perks got traded. We don't need that, this team is in good shape and we don't need to trade away.

I'm assuming that the Celtics aren't prepared to pay Bradley this next year because I think he's going to command a lot of money.

Dude, we have a team option after this year to extend Bradley. Considering his deal expires the same time Pierce's does, I'm pretty sure the Celtics will be able to match what Bradley wants.