Doc,Ray,Rondo and KG calling out the refs after game 2

[Neurotic Guy]

When in doubt...blame the refs.   That was the best game we played all playoffs and we still lost.  Guess its easier to blame the refs than to accept we aren't as good as Miami

2 separate issues -- the refs and whether we are/aren't the better team. 

If it wasn't possible for a less talented team to win, then why play?  I believe now and believed prior to this series that Miami is probably better -- that doesn't mean Boston doesn't have a chance.  And if Boston's slim chances are impacted by a bad break or bad calls or an ill-timed stomach virus, etc, then fans have right and reason to discuss it.

When you have lesser talent, you need more things (like refs calls) to go your way.  When the opposite happens, it's frustrating.   

[NoraG1]

If someone can claim that the Heat played perfectly and made no mistake I would love to see it...C's made mistakes as did the Heat.

[tgreanier]

When in doubt...blame the refs.   That was the best game we played all playoffs and we still lost.  Guess its easier to blame the refs than to accept we aren't as good as Miami

2 separate issues -- the refs and whether we are/aren't the better team. 

If it wasn't possible for a less talented team to win, then why play?  I believe now and believed prior to this series that Miami is probably better -- that doesn't mean Boston doesn't have a chance.  And if Boston's slim chances are impacted by a bad break or bad calls or an ill-timed stomach virus, etc, then fans have right and reason to discuss it.

When you have lesser talent, you need more things (like refs calls) to go your way.  When the opposite happens, it's frustrating.   

I think it should also be noted that speaking for myself (and I hope some others) I am not reading and commenting on the ref issue to *prove* something. Instead, I really, really would love to hear something that makes me smack my head and go "ooohhh, what a dork I am. The reffing does make sense and concluding the refs are helping Miami is silly."

I do not want to believe the refs are helping. I want to believe Boston lost fair and square. I am a big boy, losing happens. It happens more often than not usually. I'll take a loss like game 2 with the performance we got from Rondo and be at complete peace with it...if I could believe it was 100% honest (and by honest, that does not exclude a few missed or questionable calls - those are going to happen).

[LarBrd33]

Again... the Celtics have won countless games that other teams have blamed on officiating.  I'm not going to sink to that poor sport level.  What are you guys crying about?  Bron going to the free throw line and Pierce fouling out?  Yeah... we held Bron to 35% shooting.  The dude is a freight train.  Pierce is playing with a sprained MCL.  Why is it so shocking that he'd get a lot of fouls on that beast?  Some of those were blatant and obvious fouls.  Guys tied him up before he even crossed half court.  Get over it.  There are bad calls and there are good calls.  It goes both ways.  You can't accept that the Celtics stormed back 24 points and beat the Lakers in 08 (in a game were were getting away with total murder) and then cry about us getting beaten in a close game against Miami in a series we are more than likely going to lose anyway.  

Last night was the best game the Celtics have played all playoffs.  Just a total best case scenario.  The best the offense can possibly look given our current injury condition.  Miami won.  That's all.  That was likely our 1 game to steal in this series and we just didn't have enough to get it done.  Is what it is.  That was a heck of an effort by Rondo and the Celtics last night.

What does the fact that officiating was bad in other games in favor of the celtics have to do with last night's game? We got away with "total murder" in 2008, therefore a bad call in a tied overtime game didn't change the outcome at all?

It's just this... some people seem to think we can cry about Avery Bradley being hurt as some kind of excuse... even though Chris Bosh is still hurt... and Al Horford was hurt for most of the Atlanta series... and Rose/Noah being hurt is the reason we even got this far in the first place.  I think that's a crap thing to cry about.   People think we can cry about every game the refs make bad calls against the Celtics, but think we should just accept every game where bad calls help us (depending on who you ask.. you can blame the 2008 Championship on the refs).  I think that's a crap thing to cry about too.  It's part of the game.  Either you accept it or not.  But I'm never going to blame the refs for a loss.  That just seems weak to me.  You can get caught up in all of that.  You can say "We would have won the title in 2010 had Perk stayed healthy" and Laker fans can chirp "Fine... we would have won the title in 2008 had Bynum been healthy".  It's not something I want to get caught up in.  I also have a real problem with the idea that there is some conspiracy to favor the Heat over the Celtics just because of some occasional bad calls by the refs.  That's just completely ridiculous.  Bad calls happen.  It all evens out eventually.

Right now we are in the Eastern Conference Finals against the highly favored Miami Heat and unsurprisingly we are down 0-2.  Nuff said.

[NoraG1]

How can anyone believe that the refs did not at least influence the game is beyond me. Refs conviently ignored OBVIOUS fouls. If you want to ignore it fine but those that do not are not wrong to bring it up. It was a close game refs got involved. They missed some obvious calls. They are part of the story. I am not going to argue back and forth for hours about it.

[gar]

half the reason we lost was not having pierce in OT from the horrible calls protecting lebron.

And C's did not have Pierce why? 6 fouls

Lebron and Wade? 2 a piece!

LeBron was roughing up KG every opportunity he got. Nothing from the refs. What does it take D Wade to break Rondo's arm (again) for them to call a foul.

[LarBrd33]

Bad calls happen.  Part of the game.  Look... alls I'm saying is... anyone who legitimately believes that there is some pro-LeBron conspiracy to get the Heat into the Finals must also accept that there was a conspiracy in both 2008 and 2010 to get the Lakers and Celtics together for the ratings bonanza.  Essentially you are saying your 2008 title is tarnished.  Furthermore, you shouldn't be upset about this series at all... seeing as we BARELY beat LeBron in 08 (a 5 point victory in game 7) that was undoubtedly due to the Pro Boston/Pro Laker conspiracy.  If anything, we owe this to LeBron for screwing him out of a title back in 2008.  

IF you get past the conspiracy nonsense you realize that the Heat probably just got to the line more mainly because we fouled them more.

[ChiCeltic]

I think this thread needs to be relabeled as a self-help group. Seriously. I need some help I'm so sick from last night's game.

The non-call on Wade slapping Rondo in the face with the game TIED IN OT which lead to a 5-on-4 and a dunk for Haslem.

The call Wade got after kicking KG.

The 6th foul on Pierce after he went straight up (though I wonder why he didn't just take the charge like usual).

The 24 free-throws for Lebron.

Sick. To. My. Stomach.


Let me make you sicker, if that's a word. I can't believe no one has brought up the miss of the goal tending by Lebron slapping th bottom of the backboard on Rondo's breakaway basket that was down and mysteriously spun out because he slapped the back board. I believ it was in the 3rd quarter. Rondo should of had 50 last night.

[17wasEZ]

When in doubt...blame the refs.   That was the best game we played all playoffs and we still lost.  Guess its easier to blame the refs than to accept we aren't as good as Miami

2 separate issues -- the refs and whether we are/aren't the better team. 

If it wasn't possible for a less talented team to win, then why play?  I believe now and believed prior to this series that Miami is probably better -- that doesn't mean Boston doesn't have a chance.  And if Boston's slim chances are impacted by a bad break or bad calls or an ill-timed stomach virus, etc, then fans have right and reason to discuss it.

When you have lesser talent, you need more things (like refs calls) to go your way.  When the opposite happens, it's frustrating.   

I think it should also be noted that speaking for myself (and I hope some others) I am not reading and commenting on the ref issue to *prove* something. Instead, I really, really would love to hear something that makes me smack my head and go "ooohhh, what a dork I am. The reffing does make sense and concluding the refs are helping Miami is silly."

I do not want to believe the refs are helping. I want to believe Boston lost fair and square. I am a big boy, losing happens. It happens more often than not usually. I'll take a loss like game 2 with the performance we got from Rondo and be at complete peace with it...if I could believe it was 100% honest (and by honest, that does not exclude a few missed or questionable calls - those are going to happen).

Here is where the refs earned their money last night:

Chalmers, Battier, Wade and James each played between 44 to 47 minutes last night and combined to commit 9 fouls total. Chalmers had 3 and the others had 2.....in a game that went to OT.

I'm not saying there is a conspiracy, but it is an amazing stat to me.

[cman88]

im never a big fan of blaming the ref's but facts are facts.

Paul Pierce leads the NBA in fouls against in the playoffs 2012

Lebron shot 24 free throws, The Celtics TEAM 29....the most free throws by any one player in Celtics Franchise HISTORY

the celtics had 40+ fouls called on them...the Heat 18.

Lebron had 5, I REPEAT 5 fouls called on him in the WHOLE 6 game pacers/heat series

the Heat have 6Techs these whole playoffs...their opponents?? 27 technicals.

if anyone can look at those stats and tell me "the officiating isnt biased towards the heat, thats just whining!" it is rediculous

could we still have lost the game if Rondo shot those 2 free throws?? possibly..but I knew we had NO CHANCE when there was that no call on an obvious foul against rondo that the ref DEFINITELY had to see...I am perfectly fine with losing fair and square...but this game was hardly fair as the Celtics were playing against the Heat team AND the 3 refs(one of which actually went to Federal prison)

when Jeff Van Gundy of all people is calling out how horrible the officiating is, theres a problem.

[LarBrd33]

When in doubt...blame the refs.   That was the best game we played all playoffs and we still lost.  Guess its easier to blame the refs than to accept we aren't as good as Miami

2 separate issues -- the refs and whether we are/aren't the better team. 

If it wasn't possible for a less talented team to win, then why play?  I believe now and believed prior to this series that Miami is probably better -- that doesn't mean Boston doesn't have a chance.  And if Boston's slim chances are impacted by a bad break or bad calls or an ill-timed stomach virus, etc, then fans have right and reason to discuss it.

When you have lesser talent, you need more things (like refs calls) to go your way.  When the opposite happens, it's frustrating.   

I think it should also be noted that speaking for myself (and I hope some others) I am not reading and commenting on the ref issue to *prove* something. Instead, I really, really would love to hear something that makes me smack my head and go "ooohhh, what a dork I am. The reffing does make sense and concluding the refs are helping Miami is silly."

I do not want to believe the refs are helping. I want to believe Boston lost fair and square. I am a big boy, losing happens. It happens more often than not usually. I'll take a loss like game 2 with the performance we got from Rondo and be at complete peace with it...if I could believe it was 100% honest (and by honest, that does not exclude a few missed or questionable calls - those are going to happen).

Here is where the refs earned their money last night:

Chalmers, Battier, Wade and James each played between 44 to 47 minutes last night and combined to commit 9 fouls total. Chalmers had 3 and the others had 2.....in a game that went to OT.

I'm not saying there is a conspiracy, but it is an amazing stat to me.

Rondo got to the line 10 times in the first half, but most of his offense came (surprisingly) off open jumpers in the greatest shooting performance of his entire life.  Can't get to the line when nobody is guarding you.   Also, the majority of our offense comes off pick and pops and mid range shots.  Ray isn't attacking the rim often in his condition.  Pierce isn't attacking the rim all that often either.  I'm sure there were some missed calls, but some of the stuff people are pointing to is nonsense (like the video on the front of CElticsblog of wade "double-kicking Kevin Garnett in his groin and again in the chest for another And-1"... I'm not seeing it).  I did in fact see a missed call where Rondo got smacked across the face.  I did in fact disagree with the "clear path foul" that Pietrus got on LeBron.  But ultimately the main reason those guys get to the rim as often is because they are overpowering, creating their own shots and attack the rim often.  It results in a lot of trips to the line.  Much adoo about nothing.  Maybe it's because I was watching the national broadcast by myself and not looking for excuses, but at no point did I think the reffing was horribly lopsided.  Is there a local broadcast of the game with Mike and Tommy?  Were they up and arms last night or something?  I wasn't seeing it.  Our offense is an efficient system.  Usually our guys are only taking open shots.  You don't see much low post mixing-it-up.  If Ray is shooting it's because he's open.  If KG is shooting it's because he's open.  If Bass is shooting it's because he's open.  The only player on our team who mixes it up (usually) is Pierce.  He's the one guy who can create his own shot and that dude has lived at the line his entire career.  Unfortunately he's been battling an injury and his movement is limited.  He's also expending a ton of energy on the defense end trying to limit King James.  It is what it is.  Rondo was the only guy consistently penetrating and those attempts either resulted in him getting to the line (12 free throws) or getting swallowed up by good defense (LeBron/Miami moreso than any other team seems to own Rondo on penetrations... either they are blocking his shot or intimidating him with phantom blocks). The foul discrepancy makes sense to me.

[17wasEZ]

Bad calls happen.  Part of the game.  Look... alls I'm saying is... anyone who legitimately believes that there is some pro-LeBron conspiracy to get the Heat into the Finals must also accept that there was a conspiracy in both 2008 and 2010 to get the Lakers and Celtics together for the ratings bonanza.  Essentially you are saying your 2008 title is tarnished.  Furthermore, you shouldn't be upset about this series at all... seeing as we BARELY beat LeBron in 08 (a 5 point victory in game 7) that was undoubtedly due to the Pro Boston/Pro Laker conspiracy.  If anything, we owe this to LeBron for screwing him out of a title back in 2008.  

IF you get past the conspiracy nonsense you realize that the Heat probably just got to the line more mainly because we fouled them more.

You're changing your argument.  You first said something about Boston's Game 4 comeback in '08 that shaky at best.  Now, your questioning the validity of the '08 and '10 Champs?  

You are right, injuries and bad calls happen. But how can you tell me that a team that was fighting to get back into the game last night only committed 18 fouls for an OT game?

You are obviously a bright guy, but come on...... most of us aren't talking about a conspiracy as much as we are stating the obvious: last night's officials had a pro Miami slant to it.  In a previous post, I copy and pasted this from an espn.com poster named The NBA is More Rigged Than the WWE:

FTA: Heat 47, Celtics 29 (LeBron with 24)
Shots at rim: Heat 26, Celtics 25
Fouls: Heat 18, Celtics 33
Players with 3+ Fouls: Heat 1, Celtics 5 (3 Fouled out, including leading scorer on the team)
3PA: Heat 26, Celtics 16
Rebounds: Heat 42, Celtics 42
Turnovers: Heat 8, Celtics 8
FG %: Heat: 44.6, Celtics 49.4

By the way, it seemed like every time I turned around Miami was in the bonus for all 4 quarters.

[angryguy77]

Bad calls happen.  Part of the game.  Look... alls I'm saying is... anyone who legitimately believes that there is some pro-LeBron conspiracy to get the Heat into the Finals must also accept that there was a conspiracy in both 2008 and 2010 to get the Lakers and Celtics together for the ratings bonanza.  Essentially you are saying your 2008 title is tarnished.  Furthermore, you shouldn't be upset about this series at all... seeing as we BARELY beat LeBron in 08 (a 5 point victory in game 7) that was undoubtedly due to the Pro Boston/Pro Laker conspiracy.  If anything, we owe this to LeBron for screwing him out of a title back in 2008.  

IF you get past the conspiracy nonsense you realize that the Heat probably just got to the line more mainly because we fouled them more.

You're marginalizing the poor job gone last night by the refs. This wasn't just a game where a few calls went against us. There were a lot more than that and glossing over them to help your argument doesn't strengthen your case. A mediocre called game can be overcome and shouldn't be used as the only excuse, but there are games where the extent of officiating is so bad a team would have to play 99% flawless to win. That's an unfair and unreasonable expectation.

[dlpin]

Bad calls happen.  Part of the game.  Look... alls I'm saying is... anyone who legitimately believes that there is some pro-LeBron conspiracy to get the Heat into the Finals must also accept that there was a conspiracy in both 2008 and 2010 to get the Lakers and Celtics together for the ratings bonanza.  Essentially you are saying your 2008 title is tarnished.  Furthermore, you shouldn't be upset about this series at all... seeing as we BARELY beat LeBron in 08 (a 5 point victory in game 7) that was undoubtedly due to the Pro Boston/Pro Laker conspiracy.  If anything, we owe this to LeBron for screwing him out of a title back in 2008.  

IF you get past the conspiracy nonsense you realize that the Heat probably just got to the line more mainly because we fouled them more.

This is a total strawman argument. You don't have to think there is a conspiracy in place to recognize that the celtics probably win last night if the officiating was fair.

As for Lebron:
Michael Jordan, who many people always thought got the benefit of calls from refs, would have to come back and play a little over 500 games without committing a single foul in order to reach Lebron's foul per game career average. Alternatively, Lebron would have to foul out, if I remember my math correctly, of the next 136 regular season games for his foul per game average to reach Jordan's.

[angryguy77]

When in doubt...blame the refs.   That was the best game we played all playoffs and we still lost.  Guess its easier to blame the refs than to accept we aren't as good as Miami

2 separate issues -- the refs and whether we are/aren't the better team. 

If it wasn't possible for a less talented team to win, then why play?  I believe now and believed prior to this series that Miami is probably better -- that doesn't mean Boston doesn't have a chance.  And if Boston's slim chances are impacted by a bad break or bad calls or an ill-timed stomach virus, etc, then fans have right and reason to discuss it.

When you have lesser talent, you need more things (like refs calls) to go your way.  When the opposite happens, it's frustrating.   

I think it should also be noted that speaking for myself (and I hope some others) I am not reading and commenting on the ref issue to *prove* something. Instead, I really, really would love to hear something that makes me smack my head and go "ooohhh, what a dork I am. The reffing does make sense and concluding the refs are helping Miami is silly."

I do not want to believe the refs are helping. I want to believe Boston lost fair and square. I am a big boy, losing happens. It happens more often than not usually. I'll take a loss like game 2 with the performance we got from Rondo and be at complete peace with it...if I could believe it was 100% honest (and by honest, that does not exclude a few missed or questionable calls - those are going to happen).

Here is where the refs earned their money last night:

Chalmers, Battier, Wade and James each played between 44 to 47 minutes last night and combined to commit 9 fouls total. Chalmers had 3 and the others had 2.....in a game that went to OT.

I'm not saying there is a conspiracy, but it is an amazing stat to me.

Rondo got to the line 10 times in the first half, but most of his offense came (surprisingly) off open jumpers in the greatest shooting performance of his entire life.  Can't get to the line when nobody is guarding you.   Also, the majority of our offense comes off pick and pops and mid range shots.  Ray isn't attacking the rim often in his condition.  Pierce isn't attacking the rim all that often either.  I'm sure there were some missed calls, but some of the stuff people are pointing to is nonsense (like the video on the front of CElticsblog of wade "double-kicking Kevin Garnett in his groin and again in the chest for another And-1"... I'm not seeing it).  I did in fact see a missed call where Rondo got smacked across the face.  I did in fact disagree with the "clear path foul" that Pietrus got on LeBron.  But ultimately the main reason those guys get to the rim as often is because they are overpowering, creating their own shots and attack the rim often.  It results in a lot of trips to the line.  Much adoo about nothing.  Maybe it's because I was watching the national broadcast by myself and not looking for excuses, but at no point did I think the reffing was horribly lopsided.  Is there a local broadcast of the game with Mike and Tommy?  Were they up and arms last night or something?  I wasn't seeing it.  Our offense is an efficient system.  Usually our guys are only taking open shots.  You don't see much low post mixing-it-up.  If Ray is shooting it's because he's open.  If KG is shooting it's because he's open.  If Bass is shooting it's because he's open.  The only player on our team who mixes it up (usually) is Pierce.  He's the one guy who can create his own shot and that dude has lived at the line his entire career.  Unfortunately he's been battling an injury and his movement is limited.  He's also expending a ton of energy on the defense end trying to limit King James.  It is what it is.  Rondo was the only guy consistently penetrating and those attempts either resulted in him getting to the line (12 free throws) or getting swallowed up by good defense (LeBron/Miami moreso than any other team seems to own Rondo on penetrations... either they are blocking his shot or intimidating him with phantom blocks). The foul discrepancy makes sense to me.

Umm. Have you looked at how many shots at the rim we had compared to them?

I'm starting to think you're being obtuse for the sake of argument