Author Topic: People really don't understand the value of Ray Allen  (Read 14930 times)

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Re: People really don't understand the value of Ray Allen
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2012, 04:39:44 PM »

Offline thestackshow

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We replaced Ray Allen with Avery Bradley, who is essentially a way better play, hes better then Ray Allen in every single way, hes even a better 3 point shooter then Ray right now.
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Re: People really don't understand the value of Ray Allen
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2012, 04:47:18 PM »

Offline Senninsage

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That Ray Allen as a starter thing is flawed because Ray was easily the team's best player early in the season, and it wasn't his fault that we were losing games. It was other players failing on their defensive assignments, and other players just not hitting shots.

Re: People really don't understand the value of Ray Allen
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2012, 04:48:45 PM »

Offline Senninsage

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We replaced Ray Allen with Avery Bradley, who is essentially a way better play, hes better then Ray Allen in every single way, hes even a better 3 point shooter then Ray right now.

I want to throw up. Bradley in 15 or so games doesn't automatically become a better three point shooter than Ray Allen that has been doing it for years, and his only comparison to Ray lately is against an injured Ray.

Re: People really don't understand the value of Ray Allen
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2012, 04:55:06 PM »

Offline alajet

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That Ray Allen as a starter thing is flawed because Ray was easily the team's best player early in the season, and it wasn't his fault that we were losing games. It was other players failing on their defensive assignments, and other players just not hitting shots.

Paul was well out of shape at the beginning of the season, not to mention the minor heel injury that troubled him.
Let's don't get carried away that the only change was Bradley replacing Ray as a starter. It's actually "KG to C spot" that got us going, alongside Bass having a career-best season and Paul getting into his groove. And hey, there is a man named Rondo that got into a ridiculous form, as well.
It's all about perceptions. If some people on this forum would like to treat Avery as Messiah, then, so be it.

Re: People really don't understand the value of Ray Allen
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2012, 05:35:41 PM »

Offline Yogi

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   Ok first of all where does Avery Bradley is better than Ray Allen  stuff come from?  I would be utterly shocked if there is a single person in this world who knows even the smallest amount about basketball believes this.  Let's clear out some misconceptions right now. 
   Manu Ginobli, James Harden, Jason Terry are better players respectively than Daniel Greene (who?), Thabo Sefolosha,  Stevenson (last year for Dallas)  All those guys close out the games for their respective teams, not their starters. 
   Why then do these players, and Ray, come off the bench?  What possible reason can there be to start a clearly inferior player?  There are a number of reasons.
1) Bradley (great kid and super talent) only looks good BECAUSE he plays with the starters.  Ever notice how NONE of his threes are contested, while Ray has to run a marathon to get open for a half a second?  That's because defenders are more concerned with Rondo, Paul and KG.
2) Rondo has more opportunities to score.  With Ray, Paul and KG on the floor, Rondo defers way too much and doesn't look to score.  He will feed Bradley if he's wide open, but Bradley has not had one single play run for him in his career according to Doc.  This simplifies the offense.
3) Paul Pierce is averaging over 20 ppg for the last couple of months.  KG is scoring as much as he ever did as a Celtic.  This is because Rondo is now on the floor with only 2 of the Big 3 at a time.  Starts the game with KG and Paul so they really look to score.  KG leaves and Ray comes in, Paul leaves and KG comes in, and Ray gets his rest and the Big 3 close out the game.  That means he the offense focuses more on each of them when they are in the game instead of having an extra scorer running around wasting his energy.
4) Ray is not the only starter who plays with the bench.  We have NEVER seen Ray alone with the bench.  Because of his 5-5-5 time KG comes in and plays with the bench unit.  In fact, when Rondo sits, our offense runs through KG. 
5) Ray either is guarded by a second unit guy, or a tired starter who doesn't want to chase him around screens.  This hopefully will make Ray a better scorer.  Doc has explicitly stated they moved Ray to the bench because they need his scoring and he doesn't get the same opportunities when he plays with the starters because we have too many weapons on the floor. 
6) By spreading the Big 3 over multiple units, we no longer have a unit that has no offensive weapons.  At least 2 of the big 4 will be on the floor at all times, most of the time it's 3 of the big 4. 
7) Ray coming off the bench has NOTHING to do with his skill set.  If Jeff Green had a breakout year instead of Avery Bradley, Pierce would be coming off the bench.  It's only Ray because Bradley can't play any other position.
   The Big 4 is a dominant group.  They outscored the opposition overwhelmingly last season, but our bench kept losing all their points.  Starting Bradley means our starting group is not as dominant but it does utilize each of the big 4 more over the course of the entire game. And we no longer have to worry about the bench losing all the advantage the starters build up. 
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Re: People really don't understand the value of Ray Allen
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2012, 06:26:44 PM »

Offline alajet

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Best post ever in this thread. TP.

And just for highlighting it again:

Quote
6) By spreading the Big 3 over multiple units, we no longer have a unit that has no offensive weapons.  At least 2 of the big 4 will be on the floor at all times, most of the time it's 3 of the big 4.

Don't know how this point gets overlooked so much.



Re: People really don't understand the value of Ray Allen
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2012, 07:00:41 PM »

Offline cman88

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Best post ever in this thread. TP.

And just for highlighting it again:

Quote
6) By spreading the Big 3 over multiple units, we no longer have a unit that has no offensive weapons.  At least 2 of the big 4 will be on the floor at all times, most of the time it's 3 of the big 4.

Don't know how this point gets overlooked so much.




BINGO!

how many times last year have we seen the starters build a lead. only to have it dissipated as the starters left the floor.

now, you have offense on the floor at All times. Pietrus can explode every once in awhile for big points, but Allen is good for 14ppg every night...and thats what you need when your starters go to the bench

and its not like Allen is playing with only the bench..hes either paired with Pierce/Rondo or KG/Rondo

Re: People really don't understand the value of Ray Allen
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2012, 07:09:33 PM »

Offline ImShakHeIsShaq

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Just wait till AB is brought back to earth come play-off time and then they will remember Ray.


I don't like the people who say "Ray who" and other stuff and I definitely don't like people who say this! Why are we as "fans" wishing or happy to see any player on OUR TEAM play less than their best at any time, to prove a point for any opinion???


I want AB to start, I'm glad Doc made the decision... WITH THAT SAID, Ray is a CRUCIAL piece to our team!! WE NEED THEM BOTH TO PERFORM WELL!!!!


I absolutely hated JO as the player he had become but I WANTED with everything in me for him to be able to play to his greatest ability for the TEAM!! I dislike Dools and think Moore should at least have a shot but while Dools plays I want him to perform well with everything in me because I want the TEAM to win, I could care less if the individual gets his or not in the big scheme of things! Like I said last season, I don't care if Shaq was on the bench and never played (obviously I wanted him to) as long as it helped the team to win, heck I just wanted him on a team (playing w/e role he is given and do it well)!


I'm suppose to be the "bandwagon fan"... why is it I show more loyalty than people who claim to be fans for years???


GO RAY AND AB, WE NEED BOTH OF YOU AT YOUR BEST!!
It takes me 3hrs to get to Miami and 1hr to get to Orlando... but I *SPIT* on their NBA teams! "Bless God and bless the (Celts)"-Lady GaGa (she said gays but she really meant Celts)

Re: People really don't understand the value of Ray Allen
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2012, 07:14:28 PM »

Offline alajet

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Just wait till AB is brought back to earth come play-off time and then they will remember Ray.


I don't like the people who say "Ray who" and other stuff and I definitely don't like people who say this! Why are we as "fans" wishing or happy to see any player on OUR TEAM play less than their best at any time, to prove a point for any opinion???


I want AB to start, I'm glad Doc made the decision... WITH THAT SAID, Ray is a CRUCIAL piece to our team!! WE NEED THEM BOTH TO PERFORM WELL!!!!


I absolutely hated JO as the player he had become but I WANTED with everything in me for him to be able to play to his greatest ability for the TEAM!! I dislike Dools and think Moore should at least have a shot but while Dools plays I want him to perform well with everything in me because I want the TEAM to win, I could care less if the individual gets his or not in the big scheme of things! Like I said last season, I don't care if Shaq was on the bench and never played (obviously I wanted him to) as long as it helped the team to win, heck I just wanted him on a team (playing w/e role he is given and do it well)!


I'm suppose to be the "bandwagon fan"... why is it I show more loyalty than people who claim to be fans for years???


GO RAY AND AB, WE NEED BOTH OF YOU AT YOUR BEST!!


Not that I'd like that to happen, but let's face it, fans only react when something extraordinary happens. Sad, but true.

Re: People really don't understand the value of Ray Allen
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2012, 08:30:15 PM »

Offline The Walker Wiggle

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We replaced Ray Allen with Avery Bradley, who is essentially a way better play, hes better then Ray Allen in every single way, hes even a better 3 point shooter then Ray right now.

Why don't you pull out all the stops and argue that E'Twuan Moore is a better free throw shooter because he's 100%?

Also, if you look at the actual numbers, your whole point falls apart.

With 33.5 mpg so far this month, Avery's first with a true starter's load - Ray is averaging 34 on the year - Bradley is drawing fewer trips to the line (1.5 vs 2.3), and shooting a worse percentage there (.778 vs .915), he's grabbing fewer rebounds (2.9 vs 3.1) and averaging fewer assists (1.3 vs 2.4) and steals (0.8 vs 1.1) and turning the ball over more often (1.8 vs 1.5).

Re: People really don't understand the value of Ray Allen
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2012, 08:48:30 PM »

Offline xmuscularghandix

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Ray Allen is unbeleivable with three pointers, he can't run an offense against top of the line defenders, he isn't a good defender, his driving ability is greatly diminished, and he's not getting any younger...

All that being said he's 10x the player or Sasha and Marquis... he's valuable off the bench but his days of starting in Boston are over.

Re: People really don't understand the value of Ray Allen
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2012, 09:11:40 PM »

Offline Eja117

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He's reached the Allan Houston stage of things. That makes him one of the better sgs in the league

Re: People really don't understand the value of Ray Allen
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2012, 09:26:16 PM »

Offline chambers

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I don't think people undervalue Ray- it's natural that younger players will come through and find a place ahead of the veterans. I'd actually say many people are over valuing Ray at this stage of his career.

He has quite visibly lost a step. This was noticeable before he went down with the injury. He was killing it early on- but he was in shape when no one else was at the start of the season and he was getting wide open shot after shot. He's still completely lethal in this scenario- the best ever.
Unfortunately he's just a step slower, and his passing is very much a liability. His injury has made things worse to the point of him being a liability in the starting unit.
I'm not sure if people notice how teams rotate to trap him in the corners (baseline and halfway line) when the clock is down to 10 seconds or less. This is to stop him for shooting but it is also because he has developed a reputation for being a weak passer under pressure.
His new 'value' will be against weaker, second tier defenders in the opponents bench units where he'll be able to go on streaks against smaller or slower guys and actually create his own shot a lot of the time, which he just can't do against the elite shooting guards and elite shooting defenders in the NBA any more (yes, a lot of this is probably because of his ankle).
This is also the reason why to me he's overvalued as a starter because he's become a standard and perhaps sub-par defender against the same starting shooting guards.
Living legend, greatest 3 point shooter ever. Crucial part of a one championship team where he could have been a crucial part of a 3 championship team had luck gone the C's way.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: People really don't understand the value of Ray Allen
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2012, 09:42:23 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Well. I clearly understand the value of Bradley tonight.

A healthy young guard , who can guard and stroke the ball is more important at this point.

Re: People really don't understand the value of Ray Allen
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2012, 11:35:11 PM »

Offline Edgar

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GO RAY AND AB, WE NEED BOTH OF YOU AT YOUR BEST

BOTH[/glow]
Once a CrotorNat always a CROTORNAT  2 times CB draft Champion 2009-2012

Nice to be back!