Can the face of a franchise realistically take a non-starting reduced role

[2short]

If there was a guy who was now better then Pierce, then yes, it could happen.


The Celtics do not have that guy.  Green is not that guy. 

Green is not better than Paul BUT the team might be better with Green starting.  When PP would come in he could not only sub for sf and green could come out OR shift to pf but then rondo could get a break as PP could steady things if bradley is pg etc.

[dtrader]

Paul Pierce is still the face of the celtics.  I dont know anyone that considers Rondo "the franchise" for the celtics, and I'm around 17-30 year olds all day.  Most young people probably dont even think the celtics have a "franchise player" right now.  They just see PP as part of an aging "big 3", and Rondo as a great player thats a notch or 2 below "franchise status".

I dont think jersey sales, or anything else show Rondo to be taking anything over.  As some already said...Everyone already has a paul pierce jersey. Rondo surpassing him there doesnt matter much. As far as all star games...Paul Pierce has never missed an all star game that Rondo made.  In fact, this year Paul made the team and Rondo didnt (he was only added later due to injury). 

Rondo gets a lot of praise from the media, but thats not the team.  Only the team can decide who the face of the franchise is.  As long as PP still wears the captain "C", has a long term contract, and is the #1 scoring option...I dont think its really in question.

[chambers]

I think it's fair to say that the player with the most jersey sales and most all star votes is the face of the franchise.

Paul Pierce was the face of the franchise. He is a franchise player and his 34 will hang in glory in the rafters with other legends forever.

But now, in 2012, Rajon Rondo is the face of the Boston Celtics.
I don't care if millions have a Pierce Jersey. They bought those jerseys at least two or three years ago when he was 'the man'.

The fact is that Rondo is 'the man' now.
"Jersey sales and all star votes don't mean that much". You're not being serious are you?

Arguing with die hard Celtics fans about this is a hard task.
When the average 12-40 year old NBA fan thinks of the best/most valuable player on the Boston Celtics, who do they think of?
Didn't KG or Pierce recently say this is Rondo's team now?

[Who]

Tim Duncan isn't the best player on the Spurs but he is the face of their franchise.

Just like Paul Pierce is in Boston and will continue to be.

[chambers]

Tim Duncan isn't the best player on the Spurs but he is the face of their franchise.

Just like Paul Pierce is in Boston and will continue to be.

Who is the replacement option?
They don't have one. The Celtics have an All Star replacement, his name is Rondo.
I'd also argue that Ginobli is the face of the Spurs now. (just before his injury this year).

Pierce is the face to Celtics fans, particularly long time traditional fans.
Again, ask yourself who the face of the Celtics to the general public is in 2012?
Is it really that hard to take of the green glasses guys?

[Finkelskyhook]

Pierce sacrificed much of his offense and upgraded his defense when Thibodeau, Garnett, and Allen came on board.

No doubt he would come off the bench in a traditional 6th man Celtics role if it was best for a possible ring.

[indeedproceed]

Even if you had a better player than Pierce, I don't see why you don't allow Pierce to start as long as he's getting >~20 minutes a night and isn't just a glorified mascot.

[dtrader]

Tim Duncan isn't the best player on the Spurs but he is the face of their franchise.

Just like Paul Pierce is in Boston and will continue to be.

Who is the replacement option?
They don't have one. The Celtics have an All Star replacement, his name is Rondo.
I'd also argue that Ginobli is the face of the Spurs now. (just before his injury this year).

Pierce is the face to Celtics fans, particularly long time traditional fans.
Again, ask yourself who the face of the Celtics to the general public is in 2012?
Is it really that hard to take of the green glasses guys?

They're both celtics, so I don't see go there could be a green bias.

All star games is a poor example, because PP made it this year, and rondo didn't. Rondo only made the team due to another players injury. Plus, rondo has got high all star votes in the past (when he actually was voted in) due to weak competition at his position. Deron was out west, Devin Harris was injured, mo Williams didn't have lebron to pitch his case, AI left, etc. after d.rose, the east really had no other elite healthy PGs besides rondo.

Just throwing out pierces 10+ years of jersey sales is unfair. There's absolutely no way to say what his jersey sales would be otherwise.

To the general public, the celtics don't have a "franchise" player.  The big 3 +rondo are on such even footing it's impossible to say. Most people just see us as a good team, that succeeds because they each sacrifice to play team ball. If you asked 10 people, you'd get a bunch of different answers, but I'd say the majority would say PP.

[CelticG1]

Tim Duncan isn't the best player on the Spurs but he is the face of their franchise.

Just like Paul Pierce is in Boston and will continue to be.

Who is the replacement option?
They don't have one. The Celtics have an All Star replacement, his name is Rondo.
I'd also argue that Ginobli is the face of the Spurs now. (just before his injury this year).

Pierce is the face to Celtics fans, particularly long time traditional fans.
Again, ask yourself who the face of the Celtics to the general public is in 2012?
Is it really that hard to take of the green glasses guys?

What are you talking about tony parker was an all star this year and duncan wasn't. I think there are few out there who wouldn't consider duncan as the face of the franchise and same goes for Pierce.

You are acting like these guys are on their last legs playing 10 minutes a game.

Until those guys retire or play a very very reduced role on the team they will continue to be the face.

I guarantee if you go to another board to pose the question you will get similar answers.

[BballTim]

Pierce is not the face of the Celtics anymore, Rajon Rondo is the face of the Celtics.
But there are only 5 or so players in the league that might start over him at the 3 spot, so I doubt his game will have declined that much next year.

 Rondo is the face of the Celtics now and Pierce could easily come off the bench next season. Depends where our scoring comes from, if we have a scoring center+scoring shooting guard+scoring power forward it might pay to have Pierce come in off the bench and score 15 every night a la James Harden, Jamal Crawford, Mo Williams etc...

Pierce is the franchise. You wouldn't say Bynum is the face of the lakers would you?

To us Celtics fans Pierce is the franchise.
To the NBA and the majority of NBA fans(casual, uneducated basketball wise fans) Rondo is the face of the franchise. It's Rondos team now.

Kobe is the leading scorer in the NBA still portrays him as the face of the franchise. The NBA does not portray Bynum as the face of the Lakers.

Actually I think if anything casual NBA fans consider Pierce the face. Captain, leading scorer, all-star, drafted by team and been playing for 15the years, finals mvp. I don't see how anyone could think Pierce isn't the face of the franchise

Up until the end of 2009-10, it's arugable that Pierce was the face. Some would say the year Rondo became an All Star it became his team.
I think that Rondo is clearly the face of the franchise now- he is on the majority of the marketing and is one of the most beloved players in the NBA. in 2011 he was the third highest selling jersey of all players behind Kobe and Lebron.(he sold more than Rose lol, obviously this will probably change this season, we'll see).
He was also one of 11 players this season to have over 500,000 All Star Votes.(He was 11th highest overall, missed out on starting by one place).

It's different when you're wearing green glasses.
Pierce is older, slower and scores less than 20 a night because he is now one of a 'big 3' which is on the decline.
Two years ago I'd have no argument with you.
To all of us, of course it's Paul Pierces town, but to the rest of the world, Pierce is about to be carted off to the old folks home and now it's Rondo's town.

Not that selling jerseys or all star stuff mean anything but maybe pierce wasn't 3rdthat in jersey sales because millions of fans ALREADY HAVE his jersey.

  Does this mean that you don't think that millions of fans ALREADY HAVE Kobe's jersey?

[paintitgreen]

Tim Duncan isn't the best player on the Spurs but he is the face of their franchise.

Just like Paul Pierce is in Boston and will continue to be.

Who is the replacement option?
They don't have one. The Celtics have an All Star replacement, his name is Rondo.
I'd also argue that Ginobli is the face of the Spurs now. (just before his injury this year).

Pierce is the face to Celtics fans, particularly long time traditional fans.
Again, ask yourself who the face of the Celtics to the general public is in 2012?
Is it really that hard to take of the green glasses guys?

I can see the argument that Rondo is now the face of the Celtics franchise, though I don't think the franchise truly has a single "face" right now. And actually, I don't think it has since 2007. Until then, it was Pierce. After that, it was collectively the New Big Three. I agree that as Celtics fans, a lot of us held - and still hold - to the idea of Pierce as the face of the franchise because we were so happy to see him get his chance. But KG was the force that instantly made them championship contenders. Still, because of Pierce's longevity and skill level, KG couldn't just take over as the face of the franchise - it was instead all three and the team concept that fit in so well with the franchise's history and legacy.

But with age and injuries, and Rondo's emergence, there has been a change, and Rondo at least would have to be included with that "face" group starting in 2009 or 2010. Now, the aging has gone so far that I think if there was a face, it would be Rondo. Cs fans and the organization might still say Pierce, but I don't think you can control who the face of your franchise is unless you're pushing that through the media. The term "face of the franchise" implies imagery and representation, and that typically occurs through the media. And as has been said accurately, the media last year and this year adopted Rondo as the symbol of the Celtics.

That said, I think Rondo is held back from face of the franchise status by all the trade rumors and the national and local perception that some people in Boston want him gone. Hard to say you're the face of the franchise when everybody is talking about trading you in your prime not to get more pieces for a run now, but to rebuild.

However, now that my two cents are in on that, the argument that I do not think can be made is that Manu Ginobli is or ever could be the face of the Spurs. Tim Duncan is on another level of greatness. It took getting at least one better player on his roster for Pierce to win a championship after a decade in green. And while he won the Finals MVP, he was the second best player on his only championship team, the franchise's 17th. Tim Duncan was the best player on four championship Spurs teams, including one in his rookie year, the first in that franchise's history. Tim Duncan was a two time MVP, perennial All NBA player, the greatest power forward ever and one of the ten best players in NBA history. Pierce is a Hall of Famer, but has never been in an MVP discussion and has never even made one All NBA First Team. Duncan is easily the most important and best player in the history of his franchise. Pierce is arguably top five in his own franchise's history.

While I love Pierce, all of this is simply to say that it was and/or is not that big a deal for Pierce to be overtaken as the face of his franchise while still playing, indeed while he was still arguably in his prime. But for ANYBODY to take over as the face of the Spurs while Tim Duncan is still playing, he'd have to be a superstar. That's not Tony Parker or Manu Ginobli (nor could Rajon Rondo overtake him).

[BballTim]

Tim Duncan isn't the best player on the Spurs but he is the face of their franchise.

Just like Paul Pierce is in Boston and will continue to be.

Who is the replacement option?
They don't have one. The Celtics have an All Star replacement, his name is Rondo.
I'd also argue that Ginobli is the face of the Spurs now. (just before his injury this year).

Pierce is the face to Celtics fans, particularly long time traditional fans.
Again, ask yourself who the face of the Celtics to the general public is in 2012?
Is it really that hard to take of the green glasses guys?

They're both celtics, so I don't see go there could be a green bias.

All star games is a poor example, because PP made it this year, and rondo didn't. Rondo only made the team due to another players injury. Plus, rondo has got high all star votes in the past (when he actually was voted in) due to weak competition at his position.

  Rondo finished 3rd or so in all-star voting for guards in the East. The reason PP made the team and Rajon didn't was most likely due to the fact that he was out indefinitely with a wrist injury when the selections were made.

[wdleehi]

If there was a guy who was now better then Pierce, then yes, it could happen.


The Celtics do not have that guy.  Green is not that guy. 

Green is not better than Paul BUT the team might be better with Green starting.  When PP would come in he could not only sub for sf and green could come out OR shift to pf but then rondo could get a break as PP could steady things if bradley is pg etc.

I have seen the team without Pierce.  It was bad this year.



There is no one on the team that can take his place in terms of self shot creation.  The team needs that in the lineup. 


I just don't see how you improve the team when you replace the better offensive and defensive player with the lesser one.

[RockinRyA]

I think it's fair to say that the player with the most jersey sales and most all star votes is the face of the franchise.

Paul Pierce was the face of the franchise. He is a franchise player and his 34 will hang in glory in the rafters with other legends forever.

But now, in 2012, Rajon Rondo is the face of the Boston Celtics.
I don't care if millions have a Pierce Jersey. They bought those jerseys at least two or three years ago when he was 'the man'.

The fact is that Rondo is 'the man' now.
"Jersey sales and all star votes don't mean that much". You're not being serious are you?

Arguing with die hard Celtics fans about this is a hard task.
When the average 12-40 year old NBA fan thinks of the best/most valuable player on the Boston Celtics, who do they think of?
Didn't KG or Pierce recently say this is Rondo's team now?

jersey sales is a lame argument, esp when comparing young and old players. The last 4 years the jerseys ive bought are Bradley, Rondo and Perk. Why didn't I buy a pierce jersey? Is it because i believe those 3 are better or more important than him? No, its because I ALREADY own a pierce jersey since 2004.

Being the best player on your team doesn't make you the face of that franchise.

About the argument about Kobe, Kobe had his number changed (One more reason for those who already had his jersey buy another one. I would do the same if PP were to change jerseys. Another reason is Kobe plays with more flare than any of his teammates, that tends to draw young ones into buying jerseys. The same cannot be said for Pierce who in new fans' eyes, are boring to watch and emulate.

With that said I do believe some view Rondo as the face of the franchise, but ask hardcores and fakers fans they will say its Pierce.

Ask most fans who they think off when you mention its Celtics and it'll be Pierce. Same can be said for Duncan. Again, being the best player on your team doesn't make you the face of that franchise.

[CelticG1]

Pierce is not the face of the Celtics anymore, Rajon Rondo is the face of the Celtics.
But there are only 5 or so players in the league that might start over him at the 3 spot, so I doubt his game will have declined that much next year.

 Rondo is the face of the Celtics now and Pierce could easily come off the bench next season. Depends where our scoring comes from, if we have a scoring center+scoring shooting guard+scoring power forward it might pay to have Pierce come in off the bench and score 15 every night a la James Harden, Jamal Crawford, Mo Williams etc...

Pierce is the franchise. You wouldn't say Bynum is the face of the lakers would you?

To us Celtics fans Pierce is the franchise.
To the NBA and the majority of NBA fans(casual, uneducated basketball wise fans) Rondo is the face of the franchise. It's Rondos team now.

Kobe is the leading scorer in the NBA still portrays him as the face of the franchise. The NBA does not portray Bynum as the face of the Lakers.

Actually I think if anything casual NBA fans consider Pierce the face. Captain, leading scorer, all-star, drafted by team and been playing for 15the years, finals mvp. I don't see how anyone could think Pierce isn't the face of the franchise

Up until the end of 2009-10, it's arugable that Pierce was the face. Some would say the year Rondo became an All Star it became his team.
I think that Rondo is clearly the face of the franchise now- he is on the majority of the marketing and is one of the most beloved players in the NBA. in 2011 he was the third highest selling jersey of all players behind Kobe and Lebron.(he sold more than Rose lol, obviously this will probably change this season, we'll see).
He was also one of 11 players this season to have over 500,000 All Star Votes.(He was 11th highest overall, missed out on starting by one place).

It's different when you're wearing green glasses.
Pierce is older, slower and scores less than 20 a night because he is now one of a 'big 3' which is on the decline.
Two years ago I'd have no argument with you.
To all of us, of course it's Paul Pierces town, but to the rest of the world, Pierce is about to be carted off to the old folks home and now it's Rondo's town.

Not that selling jerseys or all star stuff mean anything but maybe pierce wasn't 3rdthat in jersey sales because millions of fans ALREADY HAVE his jersey.

  Does this mean that you don't think that millions of fans ALREADY HAVE Kobe's jersey?

Good point.

Do you think Rondo is the face of the franchise though? If you do I guess that makes 2 people