David Thorpe article on the redraft

[Bingbangbarros]

Hey, I don't want to say "I told you so," but, Purdue is always overrated, as is the Big Ten.  Both kids were good players in college, in the Big Ten, but neither should of been first round picks.

Hopefully, Ainge wont do the same thing and draft another bust by the name of Austin Rivers or Dramond Green.  Both are under sized for the position they will play in the pros, both are gonna be defensive liabilities.

I agree, although Rivers is only a freshman I don't envision him as a good NBA player.

[MBunge]

please fellow posters, stop with the inaccurate and unverified posts concerning doc and rookies.

no coach plays all their rookies all the time. they usually play those rookies who they think will help the team.

if the coach has a deep, talented team, most rookies play less time.

if you view players drafted later than the 14th slot in the first round, fewer rookies would get minutes. the best players are usually gone by then.

to play so-so rookies a lot of minutes over better players is not a sign of a good coach. quite the opposite, it could be seen as bad coaching to insert young players not ready for prime time.

but just to put this in celtics-perspective, here are the rookie minutes for the better group of celtic rookies drafted over the past few years.

al jefferson - 14:48 minutes as a rookie
delonte west - 13:00 minutes as a rookie
tony allen - 16:23 minutes as a rookie
rajon rondo - 23:30 minutes as a rookie
glen davis - 13:35 minutes as a rookie
gerald green - 11:41 minutes as a rookie
ryan gomes - 22:36 minutes as a rookie

just a simple and quick search showed 7 rookies that did indeed play credible minutes for doc. two of them for over 22 minutes a game.

i did not bother to give the minutes of players such as harangody, hudson, giddens, pruitt, greenE, and other rookies who were obviously not nba material and therefore should NOT have gotten minutes.

it seems obvious that doc is NOT genetically wired to oppose giving minutes to rookies. rather, he seems to give more minutes to those rookies who eventually pan out as nba players - that is, those rookies he deems as having actual talent.

please, stop the blanket generalizations about doc and rookies. it greatly oversimplified his decisions and misrepresents his abilities as a coach.

plus it is tiresome to see this stated over and over again as if it is unquestionable truth.

thank you.

Well, just to take one of your own examples, the same year he was playing Rajon Rondo 23:30 minutes a game as a rookie, he was playing Sebastian Telfair over 20 minutes a game as well at the same position.   And if you check, Telfair actually began that season as the starting point guard and remained the starting pg for 30 games.  Was there anybody except Doc who didn't realized right away that Rondo was the best PG on the Celtic roster that year and was dramatically better than Telfair?  So, why did Rondo only play 23 minutes a game?  The team was terrible and out of the playoff chase from almost the start of the season, so why didn't the best PG on the Celtics by a country mile average more than 23 minutes a game?

Rondo is pretty much where the "Doc hates rookies" stuff starts in Boston, because it was clear to everyone that Rondo was much better than Telfair and yet Doc still stayed with Telfair as the starter over Rondo for like two months.  That Rondo ONLY averaged 23:30 on a team that won just 24 games and where the other point guard was Sebastian Telfair is the most powerful argument to be made for Doc hating rookies.

Mike

[Neurotic Guy]

[quote author=MBunge link=topic=54791.msg1173193#msg1173193
Well, just to take one of your own examples, the same year he was playing Rajon Rondo 23:30 minutes a game as a rookie, he was playing Sebastian Telfair over 20 minutes a game as well at the same position.   And if you check, Telfair actually began that season as the starting point guard and remained the starting pg for 30 games.  Was there anybody except Doc who didn't realized right away that Rondo was the best PG on the Celtic roster that year and was dramatically better than Telfair?  So, why did Rondo only play 23 minutes a game?  The team was terrible and out of the playoff chase from almost the start of the season, so why didn't the best PG on the Celtics by a country mile average more than 23 minutes a game?

Rondo is pretty much where the "Doc hates rookies" stuff starts in Boston, because it was clear to everyone that Rondo was much better than Telfair and yet Doc still stayed with Telfair as the starter over Rondo for like two months.  That Rondo ONLY averaged 23:30 on a team that won just 24 games and where the other point guard was Sebastian Telfair is the most powerful argument to be made for Doc hating rookies.

Mike
[/quote]
My memory is that Doc took the young rookie Rondo along beautifully. Rmemeber, if a player averages 23 minutes a game, but played sparingly in the first part of the season, then his average over the latter part of the season must have been considerably higher than 23MPG.  I think he handled the young, volatile Rondo exceptionally well.

[slamtheking]

I still like JaJuan but be honest folks, we could have used Brooks for the desperately needed bench scoring we never got at the 2 guard slot.

DOC DOES NOT PLAY ROOKIES!!!

It doesn't matter who was drafted.  Doc would not be playing them.  And, he certainly wouldn't allow a rookie to go in and play iso ball and take 12 shots per game.  Gaudy stats on crappy teams don't translate to solid contribution on contending teams.

For better or worse, Doc does not trust rookies... especially those who do not play D.  And, D is not a forte of Brooks.  He'd be riding the pine right next to the other rookies.

I love JJJ and Moore and wish they would play more minutes, but for better or worse (I believe worse) Doc won't play them.  I'm excited to see what they can do in the coming seasons.  I believe each of them can contribute to a contending team.  Whoever coaches them simply needs to loosen the reins a bit on offense.  Right now, Doc is making them watch and learn.

please fellow posters, stop with the inaccurate and unverified posts concerning doc and rookies.

no coach plays all their rookies all the time. they usually play those rookies who they think will help the team.

if the coach has a deep, talented team, most rookies play less time.

if you view players drafted later than the 14th slot in the first round, fewer rookies would get minutes. the best players are usually gone by then.

to play so-so rookies a lot of minutes over better players is not a sign of a good coach. quite the opposite, it could be seen as bad coaching to insert young players not ready for prime time.

but just to put this in celtics-perspective, here are the rookie minutes for the better group of celtic rookies drafted over the past few years.

al jefferson - 14:48 minutes as a rookie
delonte west - 13:00 minutes as a rookie
tony allen - 16:23 minutes as a rookie
rajon rondo - 23:30 minutes as a rookie
glen davis - 13:35 minutes as a rookie
gerald green - 11:41 minutes as a rookie
ryan gomes - 22:36 minutes as a rookie

just a simple and quick search showed 7 rookies that did indeed play credible minutes for doc. two of them for over 22 minutes a game.

i did not bother to give the minutes of players such as harangody, hudson, giddens, pruitt, greenE, and other rookies who were obviously not nba material and therefore should NOT have gotten minutes.

it seems obvious that doc is NOT genetically wired to oppose giving minutes to rookies. rather, he seems to give more minutes to those rookies who eventually pan out as nba players - that is, those rookies he deems as having actual talent.

please, stop the blanket generalizations about doc and rookies. it greatly oversimplified his decisions and misrepresents his abilities as a coach.

plus it is tiresome to see this stated over and over again as if it is unquestionable truth.

thank you.

not that I disagree with your premise that rookies play less on deep, talented teams or that rookies shouldn't be played ahead of better vet players. 
Coming into this year JJJ was behind KG (HOF'er) and Bass (candidate for 6th man of the year) so any expectations of him playing were not really sensible.  Moore, as the 55th pick, was lucky to just be on the team.  Only because Doc is down to 3 other players in the frontcourt, would anyone reasonably think that JJJ should see some court time--if only to cut minutes for KG and Bass while heading towards the playoffs.  Moore has shown flashes of talent, enough to justify his roster spot at least, and also have some people think he might present a better option over Dooling who's looked underwhelming to say the least.

However, what I do take issue with is your quoting of rookie player minutes as proof Doc plays rookies.  That is not a solid foundation for your argument/viewpoint.  If you also provided the names of healthy vets that Doc sat in favor of those rookies, then your numbers would have some relevant validity to this argument.  The playing time part of this discussion is only relevant in relation to the playing time of other players.  When Doc has no healthy vets to play, which was the case in the years you're using as examples, he has no choice but to play the rookies or else forfeit the games which everyone knows is never going to happen.

'm not making the argument that JJJ deserves time over KG and Bass, the 2 PFs ahead of him on the depth chart.  My concern is that he's a healthy body that can eat up some minutes in games currently to enable KG and Bass to not get burned out prior to the playoffs.  Personally, I think if JJJ gets the minutes, he'll do better than expected.  Not rookie-of-the-year, but he'll be a serviceable body as a backup PF this year (IMHO)

[Bingbangbarros]

Agreed. Doc developed Rondo perfectly. Tellfair never panned out like many of us thought. Also Delonte was still playing the point but was transitioning to SG. For those who watched that season, you should remember that Rondo's minutes increased each month, up go 36.9 min during the final 10 games. Not playing an unproven rookie 35minutes from the start does not mean Doc hates rookies. Rookies are not always ready. Its not like Rondo was a can't miss. He struggled and had problems at Kentucky and I don't believe he was ready to step in and start right away.

19 mpg before all-star break
30 mpg after all-star break.

As far as JJ is concerned, I trust what Doc is doing. He looks ok but hasn't shown that he can rebound yet or do much more than kknock down the jumper in limited action.

[slamtheking]

Agreed. Doc developed Rondo perfectly. Tellfair never panned out like many of us thought. Also Delonte was still playing the point but was transitioning to SG. For those who watched that season, you should remember that Rondo's minutes increased each month, up go 36.9 min during the final 10 games. Not playing an unproven rookie 35minutes from the start does not mean Doc hates rookies. Rookies are not always ready. Its not like Rondo was a can't miss. He struggled and had problems at Kentucky and I don't believe he was ready to step in and start right away.

19 mpg before all-star break
30 mpg after all-star break.

As far as JJ is concerned, I trust what Doc is doing. He looks ok but hasn't shown that he can rebound yet or do much more than kknock down the jumper in limited action.

this goes to my point in the prior post.  Rondo getting minutes that year is not an indication that Doc plays rookies.   Telfair was handed the starting job (as a 2nd year player) over Rondo and from the beginning showed he wasn't up to the task.  As the season wore on, Telfair played his way out of the starter's role. 

To take this a step further towards the point I was making, the only reason either Telfair or Rondo saw time is because Doc didn't have a vet PG to play ahead of them.

[Celtics18]

please fellow posters, stop with the inaccurate and unverified posts concerning doc and rookies.

no coach plays all their rookies all the time. they usually play those rookies who they think will help the team.

if the coach has a deep, talented team, most rookies play less time.

if you view players drafted later than the 14th slot in the first round, fewer rookies would get minutes. the best players are usually gone by then.

to play so-so rookies a lot of minutes over better players is not a sign of a good coach. quite the opposite, it could be seen as bad coaching to insert young players not ready for prime time.

but just to put this in celtics-perspective, here are the rookie minutes for the better group of celtic rookies drafted over the past few years.

al jefferson - 14:48 minutes as a rookie
delonte west - 13:00 minutes as a rookie
tony allen - 16:23 minutes as a rookie
rajon rondo - 23:30 minutes as a rookie
glen davis - 13:35 minutes as a rookie
gerald green - 11:41 minutes as a rookie
ryan gomes - 22:36 minutes as a rookie

just a simple and quick search showed 7 rookies that did indeed play credible minutes for doc. two of them for over 22 minutes a game.

i did not bother to give the minutes of players such as harangody, hudson, giddens, pruitt, greenE, and other rookies who were obviously not nba material and therefore should NOT have gotten minutes.

it seems obvious that doc is NOT genetically wired to oppose giving minutes to rookies. rather, he seems to give more minutes to those rookies who eventually pan out as nba players - that is, those rookies he deems as having actual talent.

please, stop the blanket generalizations about doc and rookies. it greatly oversimplified his decisions and misrepresents his abilities as a coach.

plus it is tiresome to see this stated over and over again as if it is unquestionable truth.

thank you.

Well, just to take one of your own examples, the same year he was playing Rajon Rondo 23:30 minutes a game as a rookie, he was playing Sebastian Telfair over 20 minutes a game as well at the same position.   And if you check, Telfair actually began that season as the starting point guard and remained the starting pg for 30 games.  Was there anybody except Doc who didn't realized right away that Rondo was the best PG on the Celtic roster that year and was dramatically better than Telfair?  So, why did Rondo only play 23 minutes a game?  The team was terrible and out of the playoff chase from almost the start of the season, so why didn't the best PG on the Celtics by a country mile average more than 23 minutes a game?

Rondo is pretty much where the "Doc hates rookies" stuff starts in Boston, because it was clear to everyone that Rondo was much better than Telfair and yet Doc still stayed with Telfair as the starter over Rondo for like two months.  That Rondo ONLY averaged 23:30 on a team that won just 24 games and where the other point guard was Sebastian Telfair is the most powerful argument to be made for Doc hating rookies.

Mike

Sebastian Telfair was still considered a very promising talent during the '06-'07 season.  He played 24 minutes per game for Portland in the season prior to coming to Boston and he played 32 and 28 minutes per game respectively for Minnesota in the two seasons following his year in Boston.

Rondo was very raw in his rookie season.  He was a superb defensively player and all court hustler, but offensively he was limited. 

Doc made the right choice playing Rondo, Telfair, and West at the point that season to decide which one would emerge as the point guard of the future.

I'm just really thankful that Doc and Danny made the right choice.

[Bingbangbarros]

Agreed. Doc developed Rondo perfectly. Tellfair never panned out like many of us thought. Also Delonte was still playing the point but was transitioning to SG. For those who watched that season, you should remember that Rondo's minutes increased each month, up go 36.9 min during the final 10 games. Not playing an unproven rookie 35minutes from the start does not mean Doc hates rookies. Rookies are not always ready. Its not like Rondo was a can't miss. He struggled and had problems at Kentucky and I don't believe he was ready to step in and start right away.

19 mpg before all-star break
30 mpg after all-star break.

As far as JJ is concerned, I trust what Doc is doing. He looks ok but hasn't shown that he can rebound yet or do much more than kknock down the jumper in limited action.

this goes to my point in the prior post.  Rondo getting minutes that year is not an indication that Doc plays rookies.   Telfair was handed the starting job (as a 2nd year player) over Rondo and from the beginning showed he wasn't up to the task.  As the season wore on, Telfair played his way out of the starter's role. 

To take this a step further towards the point I was making, the only reason either Telfair or Rondo saw time is because Doc didn't have a vet PG to play ahead of them.

I disagree. I'm of the opinion that not playing rookies just because they are rookies is an old-timer mentality. I don't see one rookie on that list that should have been playing over 30 minutes per game. Jefferson was out of shape and had no clue how to defend, Delonte was playing behind Payton and Banks and was also injured, Green was clueless but also playing behind Pierce/Wally/Davis/, Tony Allen was very raw and played behind Pierce/Davis and Gomes/Baby/ barley play much more now.

So basically Tellfair was just given the starting spot because he wasn't a rookie? IMO there are various reasons that probably contributed to Rondo's increase in playing time such as learning the game and the system both offensively and defensively as well as how to run the team and lets not forget that he had no jumpshot whatsoever. They were really impressed with Telfair when they signed him. He even beat out Delonte who showed potential the year before.

Bottom Line: If a rookie is deserves to play over another player, I trust that Doc will play them. I haven't seen any examples that show otherwise.