Author Topic: What do you value more? Cap space or draft picks  (Read 16966 times)

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Re: What do you value more? Cap space or draft picks
« Reply #60 on: March 11, 2012, 08:24:42 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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draft picks are a crap shoot and free agents are proven players in the league

You know sometimes you win at craps.  PP for example.

What makes you think that proven players want to come here.   Like David West did perhaps?

It is all a crap shot.   

Re: What do you value more? Cap space or draft picks
« Reply #61 on: March 11, 2012, 08:38:13 PM »

Offline tyrone biggums

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The only picks worth more than cap space is lottery picks.  You really have little chance of landing a franchise player, or even an impact player outside of the lottery.  At least with cap space you get to chose the players you sign; for the most part you already know what they bring to the table.  Even with lottery picks you never really know who's going to make it and who's going to be bust.
that's not necessarily true. the point is to acquire as many assets as possible. that way you develop them, maybe you'll get lucky and one of them turns out to be really good, or you trade those assets for a more established player. you can have all the capsapce in the world but it wont do you any good if no great fa's dont want to come to boston.

Mid to low draft picks (which is what we have) will not land you anything of value.  Having a bunch of lower picks just means you'll end up with more garbage.  It's certainly possible to get lucky and strike gold with a later pick, but the odds are stacked against you.  Just look at what WAS in the NFL gave up to get the #2 overall pick in the draft. 
we traded a bunch of mid level draft picks and ended up with kg so i'm not exactly sure where you are coming from.
The idea that those mid-level draft picks became value for Garnett and Allen is one of the most over-used pieces of nonsense on this board.

Ainge did NOT trade "value" for Garnett and Allen. He traded a lottery pick, a scorer who can't guard me and a bag of garbage to two franchises selling superstars for pennies on the dollar.

That's called luck. Not assets.

Hey, remember that scorer who can't guard you (I'm assuming you mean Big Al) is the same guy people have been pining to get back since the Celtics traded him.

I agree and this is why the draft pick argument is just as flawed as the salary cap argument, you need to see how the offseason plays out in order to evaluate properly. Honestly, if you have the space why in the hell wouldn't you pursue Dwight Howard? No one saw the Heat coming for LeBron until about a week before the "decision". Wade was going to become Derrick Rose's favorite teammate, John Calipari was going to jump from Kentucky back to the NBA, and LeBron was going to light it up for the Knicks as they returned to glory.

My whole point is that this board feeds off speculation, mostly negative. Any particular story that comes out that supports this franchise sucking for the next 5 years would be taken as gospel, meanwhile if a player genuinely says that they would entertain playing here that is automatically "oh well, he's just playing up to the local media, he really has no interest because he can make more endorsement money playing in XYZ market."

My favorite argument is the weather, "because its a cold weather city Boston will never attract free agents, so lets bury this team in bad contracts and draft picks and hopefully we become the Bulls in 5-7 years." Listen its 2012 players have offseason homes anywhere they want, this isn't football where most of the games are played outside, the weather has zero effect on the game.

But again Boston fans NEED to be Negative, its our predisposition to be negative if you are from this city. Its like when you don't go up to that girl at the bar who has been eyeing you the whole night, because she'll have no interest so why bother. If you're going to believe that you will fail at your goal. Its not the right mentality for a GM that is trying to compete year in and out.

Unless if a deal for Josh Smith comes along or something that makes absolute sense for the Boston Celtics you do not bury yourself in bad contracts to get draft picks. That's what teams like the Wizards do, hell that's what the Celtics used to do. Eventually they found a taker for all of those "tremendous assets" that they accumulated over the years and the rest is history.

Re: What do you value more? Cap space or draft picks
« Reply #62 on: March 11, 2012, 08:49:29 PM »

Offline tyrone biggums

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draft picks are a crap shoot and free agents are proven players in the league

You know sometimes you win at craps.  PP for example.

What makes you think that proven players want to come here.   Like David West did perhaps?

It is all a crap shot.   

And this is exactly the point that should be made here. Its all a crap shoot, for example proven players want to play with stars...believe it or not Rondo is a star. Players who want to be the #1 scoring option will want to play with a pass first defensive point guard...Rondo is by nature a...defensive pass first point guard. If the reports of say a guy like Howard wanting to be the main scoring option are true then why in the world would you not take a shot at him? Josh Smith came to Rondo's defense early in the year and is one of his best buddies in the NBA why would you bury yourself in bad deals so you couldn't surround Rondo with talent to set him up for failure.

Its just that draft picks have a very high bust rate. People seem to think that Ainge will just sign a Ben Gordon or Charlie V option to a max deal just to save face, I believe posters have likened this team to the Pistons, but I feel that Ainge won't do anything that stupid. Two pretty big contracts are expiring plus JO and a few other smaller ones...just let the chips lie where they may after the season and deal with it then. If the Wizards are desperate to deal Blatche now then what makes people think they'll be less inclined in the off season? They'll still hold McGee's rights if that's the avenue the Celtics want to go.

Bogut is still under contract, Okafor is going nowhere, Smith is the only option that might move beforehand. So why not just wait and see if the unthinkable happens and a star comes to Boston before we all just throw in the white towel and rebuild for the next half decade. Nothing to lose at all by showing patience.

Re: What do you value more? Cap space or draft picks
« Reply #63 on: March 11, 2012, 08:55:13 PM »

Offline rondohondo

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Quote
draft picks are a crap shoot and free agents are proven players in the league

You know sometimes you win at craps.  PP for example.

What makes you think that proven players want to come here.   Like David West did perhaps?

It is all a crap shot.  

And this is exactly the point that should be made here. Its all a crap shoot, for example proven players want to play with stars...believe it or not Rondo is a star. Players who want to be the #1 scoring option will want to play with a pass first defensive point guard...Rondo is by nature a...defensive pass first point guard. If the reports of say a guy like Howard wanting to be the main scoring option are true then why in the world would you not take a shot at him? Josh Smith came to Rondo's defense early in the year and is one of his best buddies in the NBA why would you bury yourself in bad deals so you couldn't surround Rondo with talent to set him up for failure.

Its just that draft picks have a very high bust rate. People seem to think that Ainge will just sign a Ben Gordon or Charlie V option to a max deal just to save face, I believe posters have likened this team to the Pistons, but I feel that Ainge won't do anything that stupid. Two pretty big contracts are expiring plus JO and a few other smaller ones...just let the chips lie where they may after the season and deal with it then. If the Wizards are desperate to deal Blatche now then what makes people think they'll be less inclined in the off season? They'll still hold McGee's rights if that's the avenue the Celtics want to go.

Bogut is still under contract, Okafor is going nowhere, Smith is the only option that might move beforehand. So why not just wait and see if the unthinkable happens and a star comes to Boston before we all just throw in the white towel and rebuild for the next half decade. Nothing to lose at all by showing patience.

TP Completely agree

Plus with all the cap space we can take players back without having to match salary. We can send away a trade exception I believe . Add draft picks and we could land a highly talented player like Memphis did a few years ago with Zach Randolph. Cap space opens so many more options for proven players than picks do. Especially picks in the 15-25 range

Re: What do you value more? Cap space or draft picks
« Reply #64 on: March 11, 2012, 08:57:20 PM »

Offline Eja117

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Sometimes I like 2nd rounders more. They cost almost nothing and if they pan out even a little they can be used in trades like Erden, Luke H, and Gomes.  At that point the difference between a 25th pick and a 35th pick is nothing. For the money I'd way rather have Shelvin Mack around 24 than Nolan Smith at like 21.

Re: What do you value more? Cap space or draft picks
« Reply #65 on: March 11, 2012, 09:03:09 PM »

Offline bostonpatriot

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If the Wizards are desperate to deal Blatche now then what makes people think they'll be less inclined in the off season? They'll still hold McGee's rights if that's the avenue the Celtics want to go.

Bogut is still under contract, Okafor is going nowhere, Smith is the only option that might move beforehand.
So why not just wait and see if the unthinkable happens and a star comes to Boston before we all just throw in the white towel and rebuild for the next half decade. Nothing to lose at all by showing patience.

How do you know that?

If the Hornets are offering their own pick to dump Okafor, I doubt they wont' find a single suitor. There's no reason those teams will wait for Boston.

Re: What do you value more? Cap space or draft picks
« Reply #66 on: March 11, 2012, 09:11:18 PM »

Offline tyrone biggums

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draft picks are a crap shoot and free agents are proven players in the league

You know sometimes you win at craps.  PP for example.

What makes you think that proven players want to come here.   Like David West did perhaps?

It is all a crap shot.  

And this is exactly the point that should be made here. Its all a crap shoot, for example proven players want to play with stars...believe it or not Rondo is a star. Players who want to be the #1 scoring option will want to play with a pass first defensive point guard...Rondo is by nature a...defensive pass first point guard. If the reports of say a guy like Howard wanting to be the main scoring option are true then why in the world would you not take a shot at him? Josh Smith came to Rondo's defense early in the year and is one of his best buddies in the NBA why would you bury yourself in bad deals so you couldn't surround Rondo with talent to set him up for failure.

Its just that draft picks have a very high bust rate. People seem to think that Ainge will just sign a Ben Gordon or Charlie V option to a max deal just to save face, I believe posters have likened this team to the Pistons, but I feel that Ainge won't do anything that stupid. Two pretty big contracts are expiring plus JO and a few other smaller ones...just let the chips lie where they may after the season and deal with it then. If the Wizards are desperate to deal Blatche now then what makes people think they'll be less inclined in the off season? They'll still hold McGee's rights if that's the avenue the Celtics want to go.

Bogut is still under contract, Okafor is going nowhere, Smith is the only option that might move beforehand. So why not just wait and see if the unthinkable happens and a star comes to Boston before we all just throw in the white towel and rebuild for the next half decade. Nothing to lose at all by showing patience.

TP Completely agree

Plus with all the cap space we can take players back without having to match salary. We can send away a trade exception I believe . Add draft picks and we could land a highly talented player like Memphis did a few years ago with Zach Randolph. Cap space opens so many more options for proven players than picks do. Especially picks in the 15-25 range

And that's exactly it, let me be frank I'm not opposed at all to doing the whole rebuilding thing through draft picks, what I'm opposed to is giving up before you even put the cards on the table. We all assume that Boston has the attractiveness to an NBA player as Alaska or Afghanistan, but all players really want (besides getting the most money) is to be in the best situation that can showcase their talents. That is why if you go full blown rebuild you have to trade Rondo for 50 cents on the dollar because it just won't work here. You either go all in on one plan or not at all, if you want to rebuild then you need to have a lineup full of 22 year olds with high ceilings and basketball IQ's, this is easier said than done but if you want to cry about it at least come up with a plan on how you want this to happen.

2nd rounders are not guaranteed contracts so there is obviously that part of the equation to take into consideration. The difference between the 30th and the 35th pick is usually a guaranteed contract and a few million, usually nothing separates the two in terms of talent.

Boston Patriot: How do I know that? By simple logistics. Blatche has one of the worst contracts in the NBA currently, no one is going to be knocking down their door to grab him. The Hornets you forget are owned by the NBA, there is no way in hell they trade that pick, I'm sorry but you have a better chance of replacing Rondo at the point (not a dig at you at all just stating the emphasis on the no way in hell part).

On the other hand, how do you know that star players like Howard wouldn't want to play with Pierce and Rondo?

Re: What do you value more? Cap space or draft picks
« Reply #67 on: March 11, 2012, 09:18:49 PM »

Offline MVP

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If it's a pick in the lottery, I will sacrifice the cap space and take the pick. We need to accumulate assets as we rebuild and unless we have good information that we can get a top free agent we should accumulate those assets. Even the horrible contract will turn into an asset in a few years when he becomes an expiring contract. Unless you can get a top tier free agent like Howard, you will have to overpay (offer pretty much a max contract) to get guys like Hibbert, Gordon, etc. and they are not worth that. That's pretty much a road to mediocrity. So if we can utilize our cap space in order to get good draft picks I think that's a smart way to go.

Re: What do you value more? Cap space or draft picks
« Reply #68 on: March 11, 2012, 09:24:10 PM »

Offline Who

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I agree with those who don't believe New Orleans would trade their own draft pick from this year's draft to move Emeka Okafor. They'd be giving up way too much value to move 'Meka.

However, if they were willing to do so, I'd happily make that deal.

Re: What do you value more? Cap space or draft picks
« Reply #69 on: March 11, 2012, 09:29:18 PM »

Offline tyrone biggums

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If it's a pick in the lottery, I will sacrifice the cap space and take the pick. We need to accumulate assets as we rebuild and unless we have good information that we can get a top free agent we should accumulate those assets. Even the horrible contract will turn into an asset in a few years when he becomes an expiring contract. Unless you can get a top tier free agent like Howard, you will have to overpay (offer pretty much a max contract) to get guys like Hibbert, Gordon, etc. and they are not worth that. That's pretty much a road to mediocrity. So if we can utilize our cap space in order to get good draft picks I think that's a smart way to go.

The whole overpay free agent thing is a manifestation of a few things, but that is usually the case with a team that has completely been blown up and have no building blocks. Rondo is a building block and is a star in the league whether you like him or not. Why would the Celtics have to overpay for free agents? Because of snow? the cold? if it bothers players who play 100% indoors that much then they can use their millions to buy a big house off of south beach.

No one is asking these guys to move their families to Boston, but when you play here you aren't going moving into an empty house. The old tenants left some really cool stuff in that house to build upon and the foundation, while it needs some work is still pretty darn solid.

No one will offer the Celtics a lottery pick for Ray Allen or KG, because they aren't viewed as just expiring contracts (unlike JO) they can still play at a pretty good level despite being past their prime. Contenders who won't mind dealing the 24th pick in the draft and have some garbage contracts would love to have them. That is the road to mediocrity.

Re: What do you value more? Cap space or draft picks
« Reply #70 on: March 11, 2012, 09:30:49 PM »

Offline tyrone biggums

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I agree with those who don't believe New Orleans would trade their own draft pick from this year's draft to move Emeka Okafor. They'd be giving up way too much value to move 'Meka.

However, if they were willing to do so, I'd happily make that deal.

Oh I absolutely agree with that thought, but David Stern and the NBA would never allow Dell Demps to make that move, especially when they could just keep the pick and amnesty him.

Re: What do you value more? Cap space or draft picks
« Reply #71 on: March 12, 2012, 09:59:00 AM »

Offline CFAN38

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I would take Okafors contract on for any top 20 pick. The Cs are not a FA hot spot and will likely find themselves picking threw B and C level talent.

By trading for Okafor we would still have around 12-13 mill in free cap to either sign a FA (Batum?) or we could use bird rights to resign KG, Ray, Pietrus, and Bass. Pierce and Okafors contracts would come off the books together. With 3 first round picks we raise the odds on drafting solid pieces for the future. I dont see use cleaning house this offseason reloading (aka geting D howard) and being a championship team for 2013. If we arnt going to contend for a ring next year we might as well have a young crop of talent Avery, JJJ, 3 1st round picks coming off the bench and growing while we wait for pierce and Okafors contract to run out. If at least one of our 2012 picks appears to have "IT" and is a allstar level talent then we keep rondo to pair with him. If not we ship him out before his current deal runs up.
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