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Ideal Competitive Core
« on: March 03, 2012, 01:52:54 PM »

Offline PosImpos

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http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/38016/you-me-synergy-the-big-2-and-the-big-3


According to a paper presented at the MIT Sloan Sports Conference this week, the ideal 2 player combination for the core of an NBA team is "a versatile, 3-point shooting wing with a high-scoring, high-rebounding center."  The best 3 player combination is the same wing-and-center combination with a "high-scoring, high-usage point guard."

Essentially, it sounds like the perfect 3 player combo would be Derrick Rose, Carmelo Anthony, and Dwight Howard.


Interesting stuff.  I would have thought that "dominant center" and "pass-first point guard" would have been the best 2 player combo.  I suppose there haven't actually been too many great teams in league history that followed that formula, though.
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Re: Ideal Competitive Core
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2012, 02:02:10 PM »

Offline snively

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Quote from: PosImpos on March 03, 2012, 01:52:54 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/38016/you-me-synergy-the-big-2-and-the-big-3


According to a paper presented at the MIT Sloan Sports Conference this week, the ideal 2 player combination for the core of an NBA team is "a versatile, 3-point shooting wing with a high-scoring, high-rebounding center."  The best 3 player combination is the same wing-and-center combination with a "high-scoring, high-usage point guard."

Essentially, it sounds like the perfect 3 player combo would be Derrick Rose, Carmelo Anthony, and Dwight Howard.


Interesting stuff.  I would have thought that "dominant center" and "pass-first point guard" would have been the best 2 player combo.  I suppose there haven't actually been too many great teams in league history that followed that formula, though.

The Spurs with Parker-Ginobli-Duncan seem to be the best example from the recent past.
 
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Re: Ideal Competitive Core
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2012, 02:24:37 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Quote from: PosImpos on March 03, 2012, 01:52:54 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/38016/you-me-synergy-the-big-2-and-the-big-3


According to a paper presented at the MIT Sloan Sports Conference this week, the ideal 2 player combination for the core of an NBA team is "a versatile, 3-point shooting wing with a high-scoring, high-rebounding center."  The best 3 player combination is the same wing-and-center combination with a "high-scoring, high-usage point guard."

Essentially, it sounds like the perfect 3 player combo would be Derrick Rose, Carmelo Anthony, and Dwight Howard.


Interesting stuff.  I would have thought that "dominant center" and "pass-first point guard" would have been the best 2 player combo.  I suppose there haven't actually been too many great teams in league history that followed that formula, though.

  You'd have to wonder about these guys when you see this near the beginning of the report:

"Suppose there was a team whose three best players were Derrick Rose, Russell Westbrook and Rajon Rondo, three very good, and very similar players."

  Raise your hand if you think that those are very similar players.
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Re: Ideal Competitive Core
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2012, 02:28:02 PM »

Offline PosImpos

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Quote from: snively on March 03, 2012, 02:02:10 PM
Quote from: PosImpos on March 03, 2012, 01:52:54 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/38016/you-me-synergy-the-big-2-and-the-big-3


According to a paper presented at the MIT Sloan Sports Conference this week, the ideal 2 player combination for the core of an NBA team is "a versatile, 3-point shooting wing with a high-scoring, high-rebounding center."  The best 3 player combination is the same wing-and-center combination with a "high-scoring, high-usage point guard."

Essentially, it sounds like the perfect 3 player combo would be Derrick Rose, Carmelo Anthony, and Dwight Howard.


Interesting stuff.  I would have thought that "dominant center" and "pass-first point guard" would have been the best 2 player combo.  I suppose there haven't actually been too many great teams in league history that followed that formula, though.

The Spurs with Parker-Ginobli-Duncan seem to be the best example from the recent past.
 

Good call -- Parker / Ginobili / Duncan fits that formula almost to a T.


Quote from: BballTim on March 03, 2012, 02:24:37 PM
Quote from: PosImpos on March 03, 2012, 01:52:54 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/38016/you-me-synergy-the-big-2-and-the-big-3


According to a paper presented at the MIT Sloan Sports Conference this week, the ideal 2 player combination for the core of an NBA team is "a versatile, 3-point shooting wing with a high-scoring, high-rebounding center."  The best 3 player combination is the same wing-and-center combination with a "high-scoring, high-usage point guard."

Essentially, it sounds like the perfect 3 player combo would be Derrick Rose, Carmelo Anthony, and Dwight Howard.


Interesting stuff.  I would have thought that "dominant center" and "pass-first point guard" would have been the best 2 player combo.  I suppose there haven't actually been too many great teams in league history that followed that formula, though.

  You'd have to wonder about these guys when you see this near the beginning of the report:

"Suppose there was a team whose three best players were Derrick Rose, Russell Westbrook and Rajon Rondo, three very good, and very similar players."

  Raise your hand if you think that those are very similar players.


That is pretty dubious.  Rose and Westbrook are extremely similar.  I think there's very little difference, actually.  But Rondo is a very different player.
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Re: Ideal Competitive Core
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2012, 03:24:14 AM »

Offline jdz101

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Quote from: PosImpos on March 03, 2012, 02:28:02 PM
Quote from: snively on March 03, 2012, 02:02:10 PM
Quote from: PosImpos on March 03, 2012, 01:52:54 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/38016/you-me-synergy-the-big-2-and-the-big-3


According to a paper presented at the MIT Sloan Sports Conference this week, the ideal 2 player combination for the core of an NBA team is "a versatile, 3-point shooting wing with a high-scoring, high-rebounding center."  The best 3 player combination is the same wing-and-center combination with a "high-scoring, high-usage point guard."

Essentially, it sounds like the perfect 3 player combo would be Derrick Rose, Carmelo Anthony, and Dwight Howard.


Interesting stuff.  I would have thought that "dominant center" and "pass-first point guard" would have been the best 2 player combo.  I suppose there haven't actually been too many great teams in league history that followed that formula, though.

The Spurs with Parker-Ginobli-Duncan seem to be the best example from the recent past.
 

Good call -- Parker / Ginobili / Duncan fits that formula almost to a T.


Quote from: BballTim on March 03, 2012, 02:24:37 PM
Quote from: PosImpos on March 03, 2012, 01:52:54 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/38016/you-me-synergy-the-big-2-and-the-big-3


According to a paper presented at the MIT Sloan Sports Conference this week, the ideal 2 player combination for the core of an NBA team is "a versatile, 3-point shooting wing with a high-scoring, high-rebounding center."  The best 3 player combination is the same wing-and-center combination with a "high-scoring, high-usage point guard."

Essentially, it sounds like the perfect 3 player combo would be Derrick Rose, Carmelo Anthony, and Dwight Howard.


Interesting stuff.  I would have thought that "dominant center" and "pass-first point guard" would have been the best 2 player combo.  I suppose there haven't actually been too many great teams in league history that followed that formula, though.

  You'd have to wonder about these guys when you see this near the beginning of the report:

"Suppose there was a team whose three best players were Derrick Rose, Russell Westbrook and Rajon Rondo, three very good, and very similar players."

  Raise your hand if you think that those are very similar players.


That is pretty dubious.  Rose and Westbrook are extremely similar.  I think there's very little difference, actually.  But Rondo is a very different player.

To fit the formula should OKC trade away variations of the Perkins/Ibaka combination for a Marc Gasol/Al Jefferson type?? I think they should.
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Re: Ideal Competitive Core
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2012, 04:04:37 AM »

Offline PosImpos

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Quote from: jdz101 on March 05, 2012, 03:24:14 AM
Quote from: PosImpos on March 03, 2012, 02:28:02 PM
Quote from: snively on March 03, 2012, 02:02:10 PM
Quote from: PosImpos on March 03, 2012, 01:52:54 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/38016/you-me-synergy-the-big-2-and-the-big-3


According to a paper presented at the MIT Sloan Sports Conference this week, the ideal 2 player combination for the core of an NBA team is "a versatile, 3-point shooting wing with a high-scoring, high-rebounding center."  The best 3 player combination is the same wing-and-center combination with a "high-scoring, high-usage point guard."

Essentially, it sounds like the perfect 3 player combo would be Derrick Rose, Carmelo Anthony, and Dwight Howard.


Interesting stuff.  I would have thought that "dominant center" and "pass-first point guard" would have been the best 2 player combo.  I suppose there haven't actually been too many great teams in league history that followed that formula, though.

The Spurs with Parker-Ginobli-Duncan seem to be the best example from the recent past.
 

Good call -- Parker / Ginobili / Duncan fits that formula almost to a T.


Quote from: BballTim on March 03, 2012, 02:24:37 PM
Quote from: PosImpos on March 03, 2012, 01:52:54 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/38016/you-me-synergy-the-big-2-and-the-big-3


According to a paper presented at the MIT Sloan Sports Conference this week, the ideal 2 player combination for the core of an NBA team is "a versatile, 3-point shooting wing with a high-scoring, high-rebounding center."  The best 3 player combination is the same wing-and-center combination with a "high-scoring, high-usage point guard."

Essentially, it sounds like the perfect 3 player combo would be Derrick Rose, Carmelo Anthony, and Dwight Howard.


Interesting stuff.  I would have thought that "dominant center" and "pass-first point guard" would have been the best 2 player combo.  I suppose there haven't actually been too many great teams in league history that followed that formula, though.

  You'd have to wonder about these guys when you see this near the beginning of the report:

"Suppose there was a team whose three best players were Derrick Rose, Russell Westbrook and Rajon Rondo, three very good, and very similar players."

  Raise your hand if you think that those are very similar players.


That is pretty dubious.  Rose and Westbrook are extremely similar.  I think there's very little difference, actually.  But Rondo is a very different player.

To fit the formula should OKC trade away variations of the Perkins/Ibaka combination for a Marc Gasol/Al Jefferson type?? I think they should.

It seems to suggest they'd be better off with, for example, DeMarcus Cousins or Greg Monroe rather than James Harden.
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Re: Ideal Competitive Core
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2012, 05:19:40 AM »

Offline LooseCannon

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Since I highly doubt a lot of people are going to delve into the papers, I'll summarize some of the findings.

There were five "Big 2" combinations that had a positive effect on wins:
-A multi-faceted, high scoring wing with above average assists for his position and great three point shooting, with Paul Pierce and Danny Ainge as representative players, paired with one of the following: a high scoring dynamic guard who is not a great three-point shooter (such as Kobe Bryant or Dwayne Wade), a three-point shooting big (such as Rasheed Wallace or Antawn Jamison), or a high-scoring post player who rebounds and blocks shots (Shaquille O'Neal, David Robinson)
-Two Kobe-like dynamic scoring 2 guards
-A Shaq/Robinson type post player with a defense-oriented, offense-challenged rebounding 4 (Dennis Rodman, Buck Williams)

The only bad combination was two Pierce-like wings.  Every other combination had little impact or insufficient data.

Take that double dynamic shooting guard combo and it has a positive effect if you add a dynamic power forward (or sometimes a 3) like Chris Webber or Kevin McHale, but adding a high scoring, high assist point guard such as Kevin Johnson or Isaiah Thomas creates a threesome with a negative effect.  The Pierce-like wing plus Shaq-like center combo is best when the third player added is that high scoring, high assist point guard or the Rodman-like limited four.

The worst big three had two players who fit that WebberGasol/McHale grouping of dynamic well-rounded power forwards or strong, dynamic 3's, put together with a pass-first low-scoring point guard like Avery Johnson or Mark Jackson.

One conclusion is that the type of player typified by Paul Pierce is the ideal player to build a team around.  Who is the most Pierce-like young player out there?

Some people will look at this trying to search for the ideal combination.  I think some thought should be given towards what avoid.  The Kobe-esque guard, the Pierce-like wing, and the Webber-ish 4 seem to be the players most sensitive to the personnel surrounding them. 

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Re: Ideal Competitive Core
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2012, 06:45:02 AM »

Offline chambers

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Interesting. I'd say they are probably right. Although I would count players who are effective on both ends of the floor.
Ie: Your Carmelo Anthony example. Great scorer, average/below average defender, wants the ball in his hands late game.
But, psychological toughness has to come in to it somehow as well. I'd much rather Durant than Carmelo. Carmelo is the guy that helps up opposing players off the floor and laughs and shakes hands. Similar to Dwight Howard, great talents so much potential- but they seem to want the spot light more than a championship as their validation that they've made it.
Jordan wouldn't do that. Kobe won't do that. Wade won't do that. Lebron will sometimes do that, in a certain frame of mind, he becomes one of the 'killers' that I've just mentioned.
A lot of these guys are competitive, but don't always have the heart needed to carry a team all the way. I think it's important because to me, it's what makes a team its most 'competitive'.
When I think of the Pistons, Lakers, Celtics, Spurs-
The great teams of the past 10-15 years, they don't really have  a single weak spot when it comes to guys who are mentally tough and want that ring more than anything else, and their defenses are simply nasty. I can't ever picture Carmelo and Stoudemire getting the nastiness to compete on the same level as the above mentioned teams of the Wallaces, Billups, Duncan, Kobe/Shaq/Horry, KG/Perk/Rondo. etc.
 
Who nowadays can match Wallace and Wallace or KG and Perkins?

I think even Chris Bosh is starting to display more heart than Melo and probably Amare. Wade and Joel Anthony have slowly changed Lebron and Bosh from being the the kind of guys that help a player from the other team up from the floor, into more ruthless, win at all costs types of players. Tyson Chandler needs to do the same in NYC and quickly.

I guess this is why Perkins was such a great addition to the Thunder. They really are a little meaner and nastier as a whole. Perk has made Durant, Westbrook and Harden play with an imaginary chip on their shoulder and it's contagious as anything. It's one of the single most important elements to developing a 'competitive core'.
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Re: Ideal Competitive Core
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2012, 07:52:14 AM »

Offline clover

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Quote from: PosImpos on March 03, 2012, 02:28:02 PM
Quote from: snively on March 03, 2012, 02:02:10 PM
Quote from: PosImpos on March 03, 2012, 01:52:54 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/38016/you-me-synergy-the-big-2-and-the-big-3


According to a paper presented at the MIT Sloan Sports Conference this week, the ideal 2 player combination for the core of an NBA team is "a versatile, 3-point shooting wing with a high-scoring, high-rebounding center."  The best 3 player combination is the same wing-and-center combination with a "high-scoring, high-usage point guard."

Essentially, it sounds like the perfect 3 player combo would be Derrick Rose, Carmelo Anthony, and Dwight Howard.


Interesting stuff.  I would have thought that "dominant center" and "pass-first point guard" would have been the best 2 player combo.  I suppose there haven't actually been too many great teams in league history that followed that formula, though.

The Spurs with Parker-Ginobli-Duncan seem to be the best example from the recent past.
 

Good call -- Parker / Ginobili / Duncan fits that formula almost to a T.


Quote from: BballTim on March 03, 2012, 02:24:37 PM
Quote from: PosImpos on March 03, 2012, 01:52:54 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/38016/you-me-synergy-the-big-2-and-the-big-3


According to a paper presented at the MIT Sloan Sports Conference this week, the ideal 2 player combination for the core of an NBA team is "a versatile, 3-point shooting wing with a high-scoring, high-rebounding center."  The best 3 player combination is the same wing-and-center combination with a "high-scoring, high-usage point guard."

Essentially, it sounds like the perfect 3 player combo would be Derrick Rose, Carmelo Anthony, and Dwight Howard.


Interesting stuff.  I would have thought that "dominant center" and "pass-first point guard" would have been the best 2 player combo.  I suppose there haven't actually been too many great teams in league history that followed that formula, though.

  You'd have to wonder about these guys when you see this near the beginning of the report:

"Suppose there was a team whose three best players were Derrick Rose, Russell Westbrook and Rajon Rondo, three very good, and very similar players."

  Raise your hand if you think that those are very similar players.


That is pretty dubious.  Rose and Westbrook are extremely similar.  I think there's very little difference, actually.  But Rondo is a very different player.

Are you really going to disagree that it'd be hard to win if your top three players were all point guards?
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Re: Ideal Competitive Core
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2012, 08:11:44 AM »

Offline arctic 3.0

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Quote from: PosImpos on March 03, 2012, 01:52:54 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/38016/you-me-synergy-the-big-2-and-the-big-3


According to a paper presented at the MIT Sloan Sports Conference this week, the ideal 2 player combination for the core of an NBA team is "a versatile, 3-point shooting wing with a high-scoring, high-rebounding center."  The best 3 player combination is the same wing-and-center combination with a "high-scoring, high-usage point guard."

Essentially, it sounds like the perfect 3 player combo would be Derrick Rose, Carmelo Anthony, and Dwight Howard.


Interesting stuff.  I would have thought that "dominant center" and "pass-first point guard" would have been the best 2 player combo.  I suppose there haven't actually been too many great teams in league history that followed that formula, though.

so according to this theory Al Jefferson's lack of D is nothing to worry about.
if rondo can get it into his head to average 15-17 points a game (totally possible) and we can acquire AJ for Ray we'll be a dead eye shooter away from competing.

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Re: Ideal Competitive Core
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2012, 08:24:43 AM »

Offline Smutzy#9

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Id call paul pierce a pretty dead eye shooter
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Re: Ideal Competitive Core
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2012, 08:26:43 AM »

Offline arctic 3.0

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Quote from: Smutzy#9 on March 05, 2012, 08:24:43 AM
Id call paul pierce a pretty dead eye shooter
yes, this is true
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Re: Ideal Competitive Core
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2012, 08:49:09 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Quote from: clover on March 05, 2012, 07:52:14 AM
Quote from: PosImpos on March 03, 2012, 02:28:02 PM
Quote from: snively on March 03, 2012, 02:02:10 PM
Quote from: PosImpos on March 03, 2012, 01:52:54 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/38016/you-me-synergy-the-big-2-and-the-big-3


According to a paper presented at the MIT Sloan Sports Conference this week, the ideal 2 player combination for the core of an NBA team is "a versatile, 3-point shooting wing with a high-scoring, high-rebounding center."  The best 3 player combination is the same wing-and-center combination with a "high-scoring, high-usage point guard."

Essentially, it sounds like the perfect 3 player combo would be Derrick Rose, Carmelo Anthony, and Dwight Howard.


Interesting stuff.  I would have thought that "dominant center" and "pass-first point guard" would have been the best 2 player combo.  I suppose there haven't actually been too many great teams in league history that followed that formula, though.

The Spurs with Parker-Ginobli-Duncan seem to be the best example from the recent past.
 

Good call -- Parker / Ginobili / Duncan fits that formula almost to a T.


Quote from: BballTim on March 03, 2012, 02:24:37 PM
Quote from: PosImpos on March 03, 2012, 01:52:54 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/38016/you-me-synergy-the-big-2-and-the-big-3


According to a paper presented at the MIT Sloan Sports Conference this week, the ideal 2 player combination for the core of an NBA team is "a versatile, 3-point shooting wing with a high-scoring, high-rebounding center."  The best 3 player combination is the same wing-and-center combination with a "high-scoring, high-usage point guard."

Essentially, it sounds like the perfect 3 player combo would be Derrick Rose, Carmelo Anthony, and Dwight Howard.


Interesting stuff.  I would have thought that "dominant center" and "pass-first point guard" would have been the best 2 player combo.  I suppose there haven't actually been too many great teams in league history that followed that formula, though.

  You'd have to wonder about these guys when you see this near the beginning of the report:

"Suppose there was a team whose three best players were Derrick Rose, Russell Westbrook and Rajon Rondo, three very good, and very similar players."

  Raise your hand if you think that those are very similar players.


That is pretty dubious.  Rose and Westbrook are extremely similar.  I think there's very little difference, actually.  But Rondo is a very different player.

Are you really going to disagree that it'd be hard to win if your top three players were all point guards?

  That wasn't my point. You need to consider that these basketball "experts" think that Rondo, Rose and Westbrook are similar players.
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Re: Ideal Competitive Core
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2012, 08:50:37 AM »

Offline LooseCannon

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Quote from: arctic 3.0 on March 05, 2012, 08:11:44 AM
so according to this theory Al Jefferson's lack of D is nothing to worry about.
if rondo can get it into his head to average 15-17 points a game (totally possible) and we can acquire AJ for Ray we'll be a dead eye shooter away from competing.

Well, no.  That's like saying that your team needs the type of player described as high scoring, dynamic 2 guards like Kobe Bryant (but also some 3s, like Grant Hill), then going out and getting Corey Maggette.

It's a combination of players that will lead you to tend to over-perform, relative to the team's actual talent level, but you're not likely to be a championship-caliber team if Al Jefferson is one of your "Big 3".
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Re: Ideal Competitive Core
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2012, 03:24:01 PM »

Offline mqtcelticsfan

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Quote from: BballTim on March 05, 2012, 08:49:09 AM

  That wasn't my point. You need to consider that these basketball "experts" think that Rondo, Rose and Westbrook are similar players.


It's not quite as ridiculous as you seem to be suggesting. The only real difference between Rondo and the other two is that Rondo lacks the scoring ability of the other two. All three are PGs with elite athleticism, (at least) fairly high usage rates this year and vaguely similar defensive stats. If Rondo were a scorer rather than a passer, he'd be Westbrook or Rose. I think the point is mostly that you couldn't have Rondo and Rose or Westbrook on the same team and expect it to go as well as having say Rondo and Kevin Love on the same team, which is fairly obvious.
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