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explain this to me
« on: February 20, 2012, 08:12:35 AM »

Offline cman88

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Common consensus of celtics blog: you can't win a championship with a pg .....so lets trade for d.will or westbeook

If you can't win with a pg being your best player why trade for these guys? And lets not ignore that thse guys are making $20million compared to rondo who is making $10million....in a league where kwane brown makes nearly that much its a bargain for the priduction rondo can give you

And with that extra $10million you can get a nice wing player or pf mb...whixh will more than offset the slight if any upgrade you would get at pg.....thankfully danny is a smart gm and realises rondos contract gives him the flexibility to upgrade other areas...cp3 was a no brainer because he's a top 5 player regardless of position...but other than that rondo is a nice #2 or #3 option and he is being paid as such
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Re: explain this to me
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2012, 08:16:18 AM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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They just don't like Rondo. They want Rondo out of the team.
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Re: explain this to me
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2012, 08:18:22 AM »

Offline Moranis

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If you can trade a lesser player for a better player, why wouldn't you do it?
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Re: explain this to me
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2012, 08:18:40 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Some people want to upgrade the PG position because 1) even if your PG is going to be your 2nd option, it's best to have that 2nd option be as good as possible; and 2) they see Deron (or CP3 or whomever) as being a bigger drawing card to attract free agents than Rondo.
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Re: explain this to me
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2012, 08:27:24 AM »

Offline cman88

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Quote from: Roy H. on February 20, 2012, 08:18:40 AM
Some people want to upgrade the PG position because 1) even if your PG is going to be your 2nd option, it's best to have that 2nd option be as good as possible; and 2) they see Deron (or CP3 or whomever) as being a bigger drawing card to attract free agents than Rondo.

Those players take up a lot of capspace tjough for a marginal upgrade...were talking an extra $10million for a position according to this site can't win a title with
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Re: explain this to me
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2012, 08:32:38 AM »

Offline cman88

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That's my whole point...why spend #1 money on a pg...when most don't think u can win a championship with one as your #1 option...with that extra $10mill you can get a legit wing player.
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Re: explain this to me
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2012, 08:39:54 AM »

Offline European NBA fan

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Quote from: Roy H. on February 20, 2012, 08:18:40 AM
Some people want to upgrade the PG position because 1) even if your PG is going to be your 2nd option, it's best to have that 2nd option be as good as possible; and 2) they see Deron (or CP3 or whomever) as being a bigger drawing card to attract free agents than Rondo.

I get this, but I think that the OP moved Rondo too high up as a scoring option. He should be 3rd or 4th option behind a wing player and a big man (and probably the other wing, too) just as he used to be with the Big 3. And we have the money to get two bigger stars with Rondo.

And we haven't really seen how Rondo fares as our second scoring option. That's something that has only started happening this season, resulting in two career high scoring nights with very good efficiency.
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Re: explain this to me
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2012, 08:56:42 AM »

Offline CelticsFanNC

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   Shoot first PG's rarely win NBA titles.  Pass first PG's have won the vast majority of NBA titles throughout NBA history.

  I understand the frustration with Rondo at times but maybe we should first surround him with players who can play in a way in which he can thrive.  I refuse to pass judgement on Rondo until we actually put a supporting cast around him that will allow him to play in the open court where he is better then anyone else in the NBA today.

 He has spent his entire career playing a style that doesn't fit his game yet in-spite of that has still played pretty darn well.  Now that our veterans are quickly fading off into the sunset it is time to surround Rondo with guys who can play in the open court and see just how great he can truly be.  Either that happens in Boston or it happens elsewhere.

 Rondo is a very special talent in the open court so if it happens elsewhere we will regret it IMHO.
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Re: explain this to me
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2012, 09:04:45 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Quote from: CelticsFanNC on February 20, 2012, 08:56:42 AM
   Shoot first PG's rarely win NBA titles.  Pass first PG's have won the vast majority of NBA titles throughout NBA history.

I think sometimes people look too much at labels.  Is Deron a "shoot first" or "pass first" PG?  He scores a lot, but he also puts up a lot of assists.

For that matter, was Bob Cousy a pass first or shoot first PG?  He averaged 17.8 FGA per game for his career, as opposed to 7.5 assists.  While it's not exactly an apples-to-apples comparison between Cousy and today's point guards, a guy like Deron has averaged 13.6 FGA per game over his career, and has averaged 9.2 assists.

Cousy was the ideal PG:  he was a very good scorer and a great passer.  In an ideal world, that's the type of player we'd have running our team; it doesn't have to be either pass or score, but rather, both.
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Re: explain this to me
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2012, 09:09:46 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Quote from: CelticsFanNC on February 20, 2012, 08:56:42 AM
   Shoot first PG's rarely win NBA titles.  Pass first PG's have won the vast majority of NBA titles throughout NBA history.
This isn't true at all.  I posted something on this some time in the last week.  Scoring PG's are far more likely to win a championship than Passing PG's.  Even if you look at the all time great PG's that were a first or second option on title teams (Magic is the clear exception not the rule).  Just look back to the Isiah (scoring) title teams and work forward: Isiah (scoring), Paxson (scoring), Cassell (scoring), Harper (scoring), A. Johnson (passing), Fisher/Harper x5 (scoring), Parker x3 (scoring), Billups (scoring), Payton/Williams (scoring), Rondo (passing), Kidd (passing).

So in the last 25 or so years Rondo, Kidd, and Avery Johnson have been the only 3 PG's that would be classified as pass-first PG's to win a title.  Sure some of the other guys are more of a hybrid type and certainly quite a few were so far down the list of importance on their team that it doesn't really matter, but at the end of the day, Shoot-first PG's really do tend to be the championship winners as opposed to Pass-First PG's.  
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Re: explain this to me
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2012, 09:11:25 AM »

Offline greenpride32

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Quote from: Roy H. on February 20, 2012, 09:04:45 AM
Quote from: CelticsFanNC on February 20, 2012, 08:56:42 AM
   Shoot first PG's rarely win NBA titles.  Pass first PG's have won the vast majority of NBA titles throughout NBA history.

I think sometimes people look too much at labels.  Is Deron a "shoot first" or "pass first" PG?  He scores a lot, but he also puts up a lot of assists.


Yeah the labeling is getting ridiculous; you're either a good player (someone who can both contribute and get other involved and make good decisions) or you are not.  The reason why people on these boards had to start using labels is because Rondo is not a complete player.  So to pretend he is elite they have to cover his flaws and label him as being the best in category x y z, yet he is horrible in  t u v.  And then they argue well I'd rather have x y z than t u v in my point guard.  You know what I'll make thing simple; just give me Rose, Westbrook, CP3, D-Will (because they are all better players overall), and let someone else have Rondo.
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Re: explain this to me
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2012, 09:17:20 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Quote from: Moranis on February 20, 2012, 09:09:46 AM
Quote from: CelticsFanNC on February 20, 2012, 08:56:42 AM
   Shoot first PG's rarely win NBA titles.  Pass first PG's have won the vast majority of NBA titles throughout NBA history.
This isn't true at all.  I posted something on this some time in the last week.  Scoring PG's are far more likely to win a championship than Passing PG's.  Even if you look at the all time great PG's that were a first or second option on title teams (Magic is the clear exception not the rule).  Just look back to the Isiah (scoring) title teams and work forward: Isiah (scoring), Paxson (scoring), Cassell (scoring), Harper (scoring), A. Johnson (passing), Fisher/Harper x5 (scoring), Parker x3 (scoring), Billups (scoring), Payton/Williams (scoring), Rondo (passing), Kidd (passing).


  Many of those guys were afterthoughts in their offenses, it doesn't matter if they were passing or scoring point guards. Also, Isiah certainly fits into the passing point guard category, he's top 5 all time in assists/game. The players on your list that were somewhat major parts of their offenses that weren't really great at distributing/running their offense were probably Billups, Parker and Cassell.
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Re: explain this to me
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2012, 09:27:41 AM »

Offline cman88

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Where is this idea that rondo can't score?  He has deferred a lot because he was surrounded by 3 great offensive players...now that the are eclining he is taking more shots per game and his stats ahow that

No one has answered the elephant in the room though...d.will costs $20mill vs rondos $10mill...is he THAT much of an improvement? Or would rondo and a solid wing player for$10mill be just as good?  Dwill isn't exactly leadinvg the nets to a championship..and despite better ppg is shpoting 43% from the field..I feel there's more vlaue in spendng that 10 mill on a very good player


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Re: explain this to me
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2012, 09:30:15 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Quote from: BballTim on February 20, 2012, 09:17:20 AM
Quote from: Moranis on February 20, 2012, 09:09:46 AM
Quote from: CelticsFanNC on February 20, 2012, 08:56:42 AM
   Shoot first PG's rarely win NBA titles.  Pass first PG's have won the vast majority of NBA titles throughout NBA history.
This isn't true at all.  I posted something on this some time in the last week.  Scoring PG's are far more likely to win a championship than Passing PG's.  Even if you look at the all time great PG's that were a first or second option on title teams (Magic is the clear exception not the rule).  Just look back to the Isiah (scoring) title teams and work forward: Isiah (scoring), Paxson (scoring), Cassell (scoring), Harper (scoring), A. Johnson (passing), Fisher/Harper x5 (scoring), Parker x3 (scoring), Billups (scoring), Payton/Williams (scoring), Rondo (passing), Kidd (passing).


  Many of those guys were afterthoughts in their offenses, it doesn't matter if they were passing or scoring point guards. Also, Isiah certainly fits into the passing point guard category, he's top 5 all time in assists/game. The players on your list that were somewhat major parts of their offenses that weren't really great at distributing/running their offense were probably Billups, Parker and Cassell.
Zeke was the leading scorer on the Pistons both years they won the title.  That is a scoring PG.  Stephon Marbury is 16th in APG, is he a pass-first PG?  What about Kevin Johnson (9th)?  Tim Hardaway (11th)?   Baron Davis (21st)? Tiny Archibald (20th)?  And there are plenty of others in the top 30 or so all time.  

Of the PG's that were arguably a top 3 player on a championship team all time and even giving you Isiah as a hybrid - you have Kidd (passing), Parker (scoring), Billups (scoring), Zeke (hybrid), Magic (passing), Frazier (scoring), Tiny (scoring), JoJO White (scoring), Goodrich (scoring), Dandridge (scoring), Cousy (hybrid).  

The reality is, scoring trumps passing.  
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Re: explain this to me
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2012, 09:32:32 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Quote from: cman88 on February 20, 2012, 09:27:41 AM
No one has answered the elephant in the room though...d.will costs $20mill vs rondos $10mill...is he THAT much of an improvement? Or would rondo and a solid wing player for$10mill be just as good? 


First, the gap isn't that big.  It's about $6 million per year, so the analysis is really "Deron or Rondo + MLE-level player?"

In my mind, superstars win; the gap between Deron and Rondo is bigger than an MLE player. 
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