Paul Pierce is the most Underrated Player Ever

[hpantazo]

Guys you're discussing about different basketball. I really want to see a simulation of McHale trying to outrun LeBron or get past Tony Allen. Now if you tell me the NBA was as extreme then as it is today, I probably won't buy it. Bill Russell was a great player but Dwight could throw him out of the building...

Jeez, these things are impossible to discuss.

I'm sorry but that is so wrong. Bill Russell would make Dwight look like a D league player

[fairweatherfan]

Best SFs in NBA history that are better than Pierce

Larry Bird
Julius Erving
John Havlicek
Rick Barry
LeBron James
Dominique Wilkins
Scottie Pippen
James Worthy
Elgin Baylor
Alex English
Adrian Dantley
Bernard King

I'd cross the bottom 3 off there personally - English was a great scorer but his numbers benefited greatly from Doug Moe's run-and-gun style.  I think you put Pierce in the same system, same era and he bests English's production and winning.  Dantley was very skilled but was traded twice in his prime and peaked by putting up huge scoring numbers on mediocre Jazz teams.  King's peak was better than Pierce but he didn't have the staying power.

I'd say clearly better than Pierce (no particular order): Bird, Barry, LeBron, Baylor, Hondo, Dr. J. 

Comparable to Pierce: Pippen, Nique, Worthy.  Gun to my head I rank them Worthy, Pierce, Pippen, Nique.  But it's very close.

Creeping up fast: Durant.

[mgent]

Pierce = Top 10 SF All-Time?

Hmm...  I would say he's right on the cusp.  A few of these guys played multiple positions, but off the top of my head, here are Pierce's competitors:

Guys who are clearly better:  Bird, Pippen, Dr. J, Baylor, Hondo

Guys who might be better:  Worthy, Dominique, Barry, King, English

Younger guys who will / could pass him:  Lebron, Durant, Carmelo

 

That list is dead on.  I think Drexler might be better too.

[LarBrd33]

Guys you're discussing about different basketball. I really want to see a simulation of McHale trying to outrun LeBron or get past Tony Allen. Now if you tell me the NBA was as extreme then as it is today, I probably won't buy it. Bill Russell was a great player but Dwight could throw him out of the building...

Jeez, these things are impossible to discuss.

I'm sorry but that is so wrong. Bill Russell would make Dwight look like a D league player

i was about to play devil's advocate and bring up the fact Russell was 6'9 and 220 pounds (Kirilenko sized), while Dwight is 6'11 and 265 pounds...  but then I remembered that Wilt was 7'1 and 275 pounds.

[Roy H.]

Best SFs in NBA history that are better than Pierce

Larry Bird
Julius Erving
John Havlicek
Rick Barry
LeBron James
Dominique Wilkins
Scottie Pippen
James Worthy
Elgin Baylor
Alex English
Adrian Dantley
Bernard King

I have 12 better than Pierce with Durant probably surpassing him eventually.

The only guy I wouldn't put at above Pierce or on about the same level as him is Dantley.  Dantley was a great scorer, but I don't think he had the Captain's all-around game.

[hpantazo]

Guys you're discussing about different basketball. I really want to see a simulation of McHale trying to outrun LeBron or get past Tony Allen. Now if you tell me the NBA was as extreme then as it is today, I probably won't buy it. Bill Russell was a great player but Dwight could throw him out of the building...

Jeez, these things are impossible to discuss.

I'm sorry but that is so wrong. Bill Russell would make Dwight look like a D league player

i was about to play devil's advocate and bring up the fact Russell was 6'9 and 220 pounds (Kirilenko sized), while Dwight is 6'11 and 265 pounds...  but then I remembered that Wilt was 7'1 and 275 pounds.

exactly

[Celtics4ever]

i was about to play devil's advocate and bring up the fact Russell was 6'9 and 220 pounds (Kirilenko sized), while Dwight is 6'11 and 265 pounds...  but then I remembered that Wilt was 7'1 and 275 pounds.

Exactly.   The one guy made an incredibly ignorant statement.  Wilt was more physical than Dwight.

[Who]

#1 - Bird
#2 - Dr J
#3 - Pippen
#4 - LeBron
#5 - Baylor
#6 - Havlicek
#7 - Barry*
#8 - Pierce

* I've seen very little of Rick Barry. Not sure where he should be.

Not too sure what to do with James Worthy. I consider him more of a combo forward than a true small forward (like I consider Joe Dumars a combo guard rather than a SG).

I think Pierce is better than Nique, King (injuries), Dantley and English.

[BballTim]

Pierce = Top 10 SF All-Time?

Hmm...  I would say he's right on the cusp.  A few of these guys played multiple positions, but off the top of my head, here are Pierce's competitors:

Guys who are clearly better:  Bird, Pippen, Dr. J, Baylor, Hondo

Guys who might be better:  Worthy, Dominique, Barry, King, English

Younger guys who will / could pass him:  Lebron, Durant, Carmelo

 

  I'd say no on Worthy, no on Melo.

[nickagneta]

Why, because Havlicek had a condition that allowed him to process oxygen at an insanely inhumane rate which meant, he never got tired. So he never let up and his performance never suffered do to exhaustion.

I'm going to have to call bull **** on this one. I haven't seen one piece of evidence supporting this "condition", other than other celticsblog articles... posted by guess who? YOU

That gift.

Other people got tired when they ran. John Havlicek didn’t. He attributed his exceptional stamina to his rural upbringing. He had grown up in the southeastern Ohio town of Lansing, where there wasn’t much to do besides play sports and play in the surrounding hills. Havlicek didn’t ride in a car—he ran from place to place. He didn’t bike. He ran. Everywhere. All the time. Just a way of life.

Of course, there was also the matter of the lungs. Jumbo-sized lungs so big they could not fit on a single X-ray plate. Havlicek always needed one and a half. True story.

http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2010/09/original-old-school-iron-john/

John Havlicek combined the endurance of Lance Armstrong with the rebounding skills of a forward, the playmaking abilities of a guard and tremendous defensive tenacity.

http://hoopshype.com/articles/havlicek_friedman.htm

That ability to process oxygen is called aerobic capacity or VO2 max. Lance Armstrong's was measured as off the charts and though testing of that sort didn't exist in the 60's, it is theorized that was the reason for Havlicek's unnatural endurance. Tom Heinsohn has talked about it many times both on the radio and on television over the years.

[Carhole]

Best SFs in NBA history that are better than Pierce

Larry Bird
Julius Erving
John Havlicek
Rick Barry
LeBron James
Dominique Wilkins
Scottie Pippen
James Worthy
Elgin Baylor
Alex English
Adrian Dantley
Bernard King

I have 12 better than Pierce with Durant probably surpassing him eventually.

Dantley, English, Wilkins and Worthy are not even close as all around players, ridiculous to have them over PP.

And from a previous post, in no world will Melo ever truly be a better player then PP. He made be viewed as better and have better stats but if I wanted a winning team imo - Hands down PP

[LeoMoreno]

i was about to play devil's advocate and bring up the fact Russell was 6'9 and 220 pounds (Kirilenko sized), while Dwight is 6'11 and 265 pounds...  but then I remembered that Wilt was 7'1 and 275 pounds.

Exactly.   The one guy made an incredibly ignorant statement.  Wilt was more physical than Dwight.

Ahhh, that's why they called Wilt - Superman, right? If you wanna say NBA physical level hasn't changed in 50 years, that's kind of a disgraceful punch into the advanced science of the USA sportsmanship, innit? Either that or all athletes today are using steroids.

[KCattheStripe]

i was about to play devil's advocate and bring up the fact Russell was 6'9 and 220 pounds (Kirilenko sized), while Dwight is 6'11 and 265 pounds...  but then I remembered that Wilt was 7'1 and 275 pounds.

Exactly.   The one guy made an incredibly ignorant statement.  Wilt was more physical than Dwight.

Ahhh, that's why they called Wilt - Superman, right? If you wanna say NBA physical level hasn't changed in 50 years, that's kind of a disgraceful punch into the advanced science of the USA sportsmanship, innit? Either that or all athletes today are using steroids.

True fact, Dwight Howard can't jump as high as Bill Russell could.

[pearljammer10]

Paul Pierce just recently was moved to 2nd all time in points scored on the Boston Celtics, and theres been a discussion on his place in Celtic history, and even NBA history. Pierce is an extremely underrated player. And a Top 3 Celtic in my opinion. He doesn't get the respect he deserves

Here are my reasons why I think he is underrated


1) When I see the list of the all time great Celtic players, there is an aura about them. All the Championships they won, and all the glory attached to it. But when I really look at it most of the players that are regarded as the Top 5 Celtics players, they are not better than Paul Pierce. The only players I put above Pierce are Russell and Bird

-Bob Cousy
Besides passing/assists, Paul Pierce is better than Cousy at ever facet of the game. Pierce is better at scoring, defense, rebounding, creating his own shot. Theres no doubt Cousy's legend is bigger that Pierce's, but not his game

-Kevin Mchale
 As far as skill, they are about equal. But Pierce is a better leader and a better scorer

-John Havlicek
He has incredible basketball IQ, and I feel he is a more smarter and patient scorer. But he got most of his points off of the Celtics system offense, and understanding where to be at certain times. Pierce is a better overall scorer, can run the offense better, and can create his own shot. He's also a better passer, and a better defender than Havlicek



2)Most of NBA awards are popularity contests

-The other knock on Paul Pierce is his lack of individual awards. Well honestly, NBA awards are based of off whos the most commercially viable. You look at Kobe Bryant, who has had loads of hardware. He is not a better defender than Paul Pierce. But yet he gets 1st team all defense because of his name and fame as a player. Its almost comical he would win those awards when at that time, Bruce Bowen, Ron Artest, and Shane Battier were clearly better perimeter defenders than Kobe

-Regular season MVPs are kind of like a mixed bag. Its all a function of team success. If your team is number 1 or 2 in your conference, you're basically a shoe in. And lets not forget how horrible Paul Pierce's teams have been in his earlier years. I wish I could see the a lot of great players be on a team where you're the only great player. Even Jordan before he won his titles missed the playoffs because of the people around him. The MVP is basically being the best player on the best team. And for Pierce he only had about 4 years of being on one of the best teams in the NBA, which limited his opportunities to win one


3) Paul Pierce doesn't have that “WOW” factor. When he makes his moves, they aren't really jump off your seat type scoring. He's efficient, patient, utilizes footwork, doesn't run fast, doesn't jump out the gym, etc. Also his personality isn't really that outgoing, sort of polarizing. He isn't a recluse, but he's not the life of the party either. And I think he doesn't draw a lot of fans to him. I don't think I ever seen a huge commercial explicitly for Paul Pierce (if anyone knows, please let me know). Its the popular players that get most of the recognition for being great. In that 2008 championship year, Paul outplayed both MVPs Lebron and Kobe to win the title. He should also be in the discussion of one of the greatest wing players of his generation

Based on the title i nominate this as best thread ever. But its been like this through his whole career. I dont think Pierce will ever get the credit that he deserves. TP.

[Moranis]

Guys you're discussing about different basketball. I really want to see a simulation of McHale trying to outrun LeBron or get past Tony Allen. Now if you tell me the NBA was as extreme then as it is today, I probably won't buy it. Bill Russell was a great player but Dwight could throw him out of the building...

Jeez, these things are impossible to discuss.

I'm sorry but that is so wrong. Bill Russell would make Dwight look like a D league player

i was about to play devil's advocate and bring up the fact Russell was 6'9 and 220 pounds (Kirilenko sized), while Dwight is 6'11 and 265 pounds...  but then I remembered that Wilt was 7'1 and 275 pounds.

exactly

yeah but Wilt dominated Russell.  Wilt's numbers did not decrease at all when he played Bill, while Bill's often were far less than his season averages.  Sure Bill's teams won more times than not, but not because Bill shut Wilt down, it was because Bill had better teammates, better coaches, and better game plans.