The picks for Ray and KG: Clarifying the record

[Inside-Out]

There have been posts in several threads stating that the picks that brought KG were mid-round picks.

To be clear, it took a lotto pick, #5, to get Ray Allen (coming off double-ankle surgery).

For KG, it took two 1sts, our own and Minny's 2009 1st that we had prevously acquired.  That pick turned out to be a #6 lottery pick (and after trading away KG, it was clearly going to be a lotto pick).  (also GGreen, considered a top prospect, and Al, the best young post man in the game).

So for those that suggest we can trade any old 1st rounder for a superstar, please keep in mind that in each case it took at least one lottery pick, not a mid-rounder or late pick, no protected picks or any of that.

The #5 got a star player coming off double ankle surgery, aka damaged goods.

It took a #6, a late 1st, the best young post player in the game, and a prospect that had 20 ppg potential to land KG.


As we look forward, we just don't have the assets to bring in marquee talent like we had when we landed those two guys, and it's not common to have two teams looking to clear the decks and start over like that at the same time who happen to have two all-star players around the prime of their careers that happen to play positions that not only complement each other, but also the all-star we already had.

It's a bit cold around these parts for many FA's, and we just don't have the trade assets to bring one in.  As bad as it is, it could get much worse before it gets better.

[Roy H.]

If I recall correctly, the Twolves pick had protections on it, to the point where we wouldn't have gotten it.  Instead, it would have ended up being a 2nd rounder.  Therefore, we can't really look at it like we gave up the #6 pick in the draft.

Still, your greater point still stands:  it's very, very hard to turn mid-to-late first rounders into impact players.  It definitely happens -- we landed Big Al, Rondo, and Perk with mid-to-late picks -- but it's not necessarily a reliable method of rebuilding.

[Inside-Out]

If I recall correctly, the Twolves pick had protections on it, to the point where we wouldn't have gotten it.  Instead, it would have ended up being a 2nd rounder.  Therefore, we can't really look at it like we gave up the #6 pick in the draft.

Still, your greater point still stands:  it's very, very hard to turn mid-to-late first rounders into impact players.  It definitely happens -- we landed Big Al, Rondo, and Perk with mid-to-late picks -- but it's not necessarily a reliable method of rebuilding.

I don't remember what the protections were- top 5?  They blew it on Flynn anyway (with quite a few better PG's on the board)...

In any case, thanks for noticing and acknowledging the main point.

[Roy H.]

Here's how Celtics.com described the Twolves pick at the time:

Aside from our own picks, the Celtics are likely entitled to receive a future first-round pick from the Minnesota Timberwolves. Due to a league rule prohibiting teams from ever placing themselves in a situation where two consecutive future first-round picks have been traded away, the Celtics cannot receive the first round pick the Timberwolves owe from the Ricky Davis/Wally Szczerbiak trade until two years after the Timberwolves send a pick to the Clippers (from the Sam Cassell/Marko Jaric trade). However, because the Clippers trade involved top 10 "protection," Minnesota only has to send the pick to the Clippers if the pick falls outside the top 10 picks in the draft. Therefore, in future years, Celtics fans should be rooting for Minnesota to win (when, of course, they're not playing against the Celtics) until the Timberwolves finish a season out of the bottom ten, and send their pick to the Clippers. Two years after this occurs, the Timberwolves will send their first-round pick to the Celtics, subject to some "protection" which decreases annually after the first year in which we could receive the pick.*

The situation is further complicated by a league rule that prevents any deals being made involving drafts more than 7 drafts into the future; as a result the Celtics cannot receive Minnesota's pick after the 2012 draft, since the Ricky/Wally trade was made before the 2006 draft. Therefore, if the Timberwolves do not send a pick to the Clippers by the end of the 2010 draft, the Celtics will be unable to receive the Timberwolves' first-round pick in 2012, and will instead receive a second-round pick in 2012.

*For those die-hard draft fans who want all the details, here's how the protection on this pick works: If the Timberwolves send a pick to the Clippers in 2007, we receive the Timberwolves' pick in 2009 if it falls outside of the top 14, in 2010 if it falls outside of the top 5, in 2011 if it falls outside of the top 3, or in 2012 unconditionally. If the Timberwolves send a pick to the Clippers in 2008, we receive the Timberwolves' pick in 2010 if it falls outside of the top 14, in 2011 if it falls outside of the top 5, or in 2012 unconditionally. If the Timberwolves send a pick to the Clippers in 2009, we receive the Timberwolves' pick in 2011 if it falls outside the top 14, or in 2012 unconditionally. Finally, if the Timberwolves send a pick to the Clippers in 2010, we receive the Timberwolves' pick in 2012 unconditionally.

Minnesota never did convey that #1 pick to the Clippers; they'll finally do that this year.  That means we would have ended up with the Twolves' #2 pick this year.

[Marcus13]

We traded the #5 pick who turned out to be pure crap for the greatest shooter to ever pick up a basketball.

Draft picks are extremely overrated in this league.

[Inside-Out]

We traded the #5 pick who turned out to be pure crap for the greatest shooter to ever pick up a basketball.

Draft picks are extremely overrated in this league.

I disagree, and not only on "pure crap" as a characterization of Green.  Good drafting us underrated.

Al Thornton went #14 that year, and Noah went #9.  Carl Landry at 31 and Marc Gasol at 48 were drafted that year, too.  If they had taken any of those players, I don't think they trade JG for Perk.

Not sure why they drafted Green at 5 after taking Durant.  No need to take another SF.

[Marcus13]

We traded the #5 pick who turned out to be pure crap for the greatest shooter to ever pick up a basketball.

Draft picks are extremely overrated in this league.

I disagree, and not only on "pure crap" as a characterization of Green.  Good drafting us underrated.

Al Thornton went #14 that year, and Noah went #9.  Carl Landry at 31 and Marc Gasol at 48 were drafted that year, too.  If they had taken any of those players, I don't think they trade JG for Perk.

Not sure why they drafted Green at 5 after taking Durant.  No need to take another SF.

Ok, there are also 30 other picks in between there of guys who've made no impact.  There's always gems in the draft, but having a high pick is only half the battle.  Besides, even out of the four "gems" you listed, how many of those do you even want over Ray Allen?  Do we win Banner 17 if we have any of those guys instead of Ray?  We certainly don't get KG...

[Inside-Out]

We traded the #5 pick who turned out to be pure crap for the greatest shooter to ever pick up a basketball.

Draft picks are extremely overrated in this league.

I disagree, and not only on "pure crap" as a characterization of Green.  Good drafting us underrated.

Al Thornton went #14 that year, and Noah went #9.  Carl Landry at 31 and Marc Gasol at 48 were drafted that year, too.  If they had taken any of those players, I don't think they trade JG for Perk.

Not sure why they drafted Green at 5 after taking Durant.  No need to take another SF.

Ok, there are also 30 other picks in between there of guys who've made no impact.  There's always gems in the draft, but having a high pick is only half the battle. 

Besides, even out of the four "gems" you listed, how many of those do you even want over Ray Allen?  Do we win Banner 17 if we have any of those guys instead of Ray?  We certainly don't get KG...

I'm not sure you read my post.  I was commenting on the pick as taken by Seattle/OKC, which presumes they traded Ray to us for that pick. 

They inexplicably selected two SF's in the same draft and then played Green out of position for 4 years when they could have drafted a number of players that would have provided similar lottery talent with a better fit.

Picks aren't overrated if they're used with some modicum of intelligence.  The Green pick by Seattle/OKC just wasn't a smart use of a pick right after taking Durant.

Westbrook
Harden
Durant
Horford
Ibaka

That unit averages over 100 per game with solid defense and they don't need Perk.

[BballTim]

We traded the #5 pick who turned out to be pure crap for the greatest shooter to ever pick up a basketball.

Draft picks are extremely overrated in this league.

I disagree, and not only on "pure crap" as a characterization of Green.  Good drafting us underrated.

Al Thornton went #14 that year, and Noah went #9.  Carl Landry at 31 and Marc Gasol at 48 were drafted that year, too.  If they had taken any of those players, I don't think they trade JG for Perk.

Not sure why they drafted Green at 5 after taking Durant.  No need to take another SF.

Ok, there are also 30 other picks in between there of guys who've made no impact.  There's always gems in the draft, but having a high pick is only half the battle. 

Besides, even out of the four "gems" you listed, how many of those do you even want over Ray Allen?  Do we win Banner 17 if we have any of those guys instead of Ray?  We certainly don't get KG...

I'm not sure you read my post.  I was commenting on the pick as taken by Seattle/OKC, which presumes they traded Ray to us for that pick. 

They inexplicably selected two SF's in the same draft and then played Green out of position for 4 years when they could have drafted a number of players that would have provided similar lottery talent with a better fit.

Picks aren't overrated if they're used with some modicum of intelligence.  The Green pick by Seattle/OKC just wasn't a smart use of a pick right after taking Durant.

Westbrook
Harden
Durant
Horford
Ibaka

That unit averages over 100 per game with solid defense and they don't need Perk.

  Pretty sure Horford went before Green.

[Inside-Out]

We traded the #5 pick who turned out to be pure crap for the greatest shooter to ever pick up a basketball.

Draft picks are extremely overrated in this league.

I disagree, and not only on "pure crap" as a characterization of Green.  Good drafting us underrated.

Al Thornton went #14 that year, and Noah went #9.  Carl Landry at 31 and Marc Gasol at 48 were drafted that year, too.  If they had taken any of those players, I don't think they trade JG for Perk.

Not sure why they drafted Green at 5 after taking Durant.  No need to take another SF.

Ok, there are also 30 other picks in between there of guys who've made no impact.  There's always gems in the draft, but having a high pick is only half the battle. 

Besides, even out of the four "gems" you listed, how many of those do you even want over Ray Allen?  Do we win Banner 17 if we have any of those guys instead of Ray?  We certainly don't get KG...

I'm not sure you read my post.  I was commenting on the pick as taken by Seattle/OKC, which presumes they traded Ray to us for that pick. 

They inexplicably selected two SF's in the same draft and then played Green out of position for 4 years when they could have drafted a number of players that would have provided similar lottery talent with a better fit.

Picks aren't overrated if they're used with some modicum of intelligence.  The Green pick by Seattle/OKC just wasn't a smart use of a pick right after taking Durant.

Westbrook
Harden
Durant
Horford
Ibaka

That unit averages over 100 per game with solid defense and they don't need Perk.

  Pretty sure Horford went before Green.

I'm a complete idiot.  I confused Thornton with Horford...screwed up my Al's.

Oopsie.

I overlooked Spencer Hawes, though.  So there's another big that might have complemented Durant/Westbrook/Harden/Ibaka better than Green.

Two top-5 picks at the same position in the same draft by the same team...dumb.

[Q_FBE]

Good opportunity to play revisionist history here.

With the 5th pick of the 2007 draft, Q the armchair Celtics GM selects Joakim Noah of Florida.

Q trades Rondo, Perkins, Paul Pierce out to Portland for Travis Outlaw, Rudy Fernandez, the rights to draft Chris Paul and LeMarcus Aldridge.

Q retains Delonte West, Tony Allen, Al Jefferson, Ryan Gomes, etc.........

I that team would have won the championship already and continue to be competing for championships.

PG - Chris Paul, Delonte West
SG - Tony Allen, Rudy Fernandez
SF - Travis Outlaw, Ryan Gomes
PF - LeMarcus Aldridge, Al Jefferson
C - Joakim Noah, FA big man (Tyson Chandler)

[Inside-Out]

Good opportunity to play revisionist history here.

With the 5th pick of the 2007 draft, Q the armchair Celtics GM selects Joakim Noah of Florida.

Q trades Rondo, Perkins, Paul Pierce out to Portland for Travis Outlaw, Rudy Fernandez, the rights to draft Chris Paul and LeMarcus Aldridge.

Q retains Delonte West, Tony Allen, Al Jefferson, Ryan Gomes, etc.........

I that team would have won the championship already and continue to be competing for championships.

PG - Chris Paul, Delonte West
SG - Tony Allen, Rudy Fernandez
SF - Travis Outlaw, Ryan Gomes
PF - LeMarcus Aldridge, Al Jefferson
C - Joakim Noah, FA big man (Tyson Chandler)

Noah was really a stretch at 9, I don't think I'd have taken him at 5...too limited.


People forget that things were already starting to look up.  The terrible 24 win team the previous year was due in part to tanking as part of the Oden sweepstakes.

Rondo
West
Pierce
AlJefferson
Perk

#5 pick

With Jeff Green as 6th man, that's a pretty good, though young, roster.  If we still had Doc/Thibs that season, this group was nothing to sneeze at.

[BballTim]

Good opportunity to play revisionist history here.

With the 5th pick of the 2007 draft, Q the armchair Celtics GM selects Joakim Noah of Florida.

Q trades Rondo, Perkins, Paul Pierce out to Portland for Travis Outlaw, Rudy Fernandez, the rights to draft Chris Paul and LeMarcus Aldridge.

Q retains Delonte West, Tony Allen, Al Jefferson, Ryan Gomes, etc.........

I that team would have won the championship already and continue to be competing for championships.

PG - Chris Paul, Delonte West
SG - Tony Allen, Rudy Fernandez
SF - Travis Outlaw, Ryan Gomes
PF - LeMarcus Aldridge, Al Jefferson
C - Joakim Noah, FA big man (Tyson Chandler)

 I think CP3 was drafted the year before Rondo was.

[Who]

Gerald Green was no longer a top prospect by the time he was traded.

He was a throw in. Equivalent value of a Ryan Gomes.

[Inside-Out]

Gerald Green was no longer a top prospect by the time he was traded.

He was a throw in. Equivalent value of a Ryan Gomes.

Really?  With multiple 20pt games, averaging double figures for the season mostly off the bench, and nearly 37% from 3 in his sophomore season right out of high school?

The numbers are fairly comparable to the sophomore efforts of some other wings drafted out of HS (yes, I mean Kobe and T-Mac).