Johnson = Brooks

[OttawaCeltic]

Many fans are left wondering if Ainge 'flopped' on the draft as Brooks excels in New Jersey Nets, but my opinion I always notice is that in the Big 3 era, many talented rookies achieved limited success with the Boston roster. Example players of this theory is Bill 'Hogging' Walker, Semih 'Automatic' Erden and Luke 'the Fluke' Gody.

In other words, if we had not switch the two rookies, my thought is that I assume Johnson would have as much success as Brooks is having now in NJ and Brooks would have as much success as Johnson is having in Beantown.

[Eja117]

I think because a guard plays in a wider area with more movement and can pass and play defense and can shoot (sometimes open shots) it's easier for a young guard to have success. The rules are written to give them a little more freedom and a 6ft 6 guard could occasionally find themselves to be bigger than even a very good player guarding them (like a 6ft 5 D Wade).  Whereas a young forward/center finds themselves 30lbs smaller than they will eventually be and playing in a smaller area against players generally bigger or at least the same size.

One guy gets to be a thoroughbred running with other thoroughbreds and the other gets to be a small bull running with other bulls. 

[OttawaCeltic]

I think because a guard plays in a wider area with more movement and can pass and play defense and can shoot (sometimes open shots) it's easier for a young guard to have success. The rules are written to give them a little more freedom and a 6ft 6 guard could occasionally find themselves to be bigger than even a very good player guarding them (like a 6ft 5 D Wade).  Whereas a young forward/center finds themselves 30lbs smaller than they will eventually be and playing in a smaller area against players generally bigger or at least the same size.

One guy gets to be a thoroughbred running with other thoroughbreds and the other gets to be a small bull running with other bulls. 

TP. Good comment

[Dante]

Ottawa, you know that is the basis of your assumption?

[kozlodoev]

It's easier for a young guard to have success because he's more likely to have the ball in this hand. A young big will have to learn a massive amount of plays where he's away from the ball, which may not be what the typical dominant college player is accustomed to.

[Josh88]

Just no, Brooks is far more NBA ready than Johnson and will undoubtedly be the better player in the long run. I'm not a Danny hater but there is no way JJJ would achieve the success Marshon has if he were on the Nets and vice versa.

[kozlodoev]

Just no, Brooks is far more NBA ready than Johnson and will undoubtedly be the better player in the long run. I'm not a Danny hater but there is no way JJJ would achieve the success Marshon has if he were on the Nets and vice versa.

Even setting aside the fact that you need a crystal ball to make this statement, it would only be relevant if we aspired to be more like the Nets.

[ScoobyDoo]

Was JuJuan Johnson considered a dominant college player? I know he had decent averages in a good conference but was he dominant?

I agree that Brooks may be putting up decent numbers on a bad team, but if I'm being honest, he looks like he belongs. His herky jerky hesitation moves on offense, his stroke, his confidence, etc. The left hand drive past Rondo and over Jermaine was a "pro" offensive move. That kid is a natural and special scorer - I really don't have any doubts about that.

Defensively I also agree that with his long arms, anticipation and his athleticism, he will end up being a pretty good defender as well. I'm not saying he's the next Jordan, but I think he is definitely going to do very well, unless he is a complete basket case, attitude problem guy...

JJJ on the other hand - while it's way to early to tell, my main concern is that he is so thin and if he can't add 20-30 lbs of muscle to be able to bang in the box like he'll need to, I think he could be in trouble and therefore the trade could appear not to be a good one.

I like his speed, athleticism, length and shooting ability - but he just looks very physically challenged to me at the PF spot and I do not think he can "become" a small forward.

Rounding back, was JJJ a dominant college player?

And do you guys feel confident that he can beef up enough to be able to play the PF spot long term in the NBA?

Lastly, did anyone hear the rumor that while thin, he bench pressed more than all but one other player in the combines. Or that he was unusually strong for his weight, something along those lines?   

[clover]

Many fans are left wondering if Ainge 'flopped' on the draft as Brooks excels in New Jersey Nets, but my opinion I always notice is that in the Big 3 era, many talented rookies achieved limited success with the Boston roster. Example players of this theory is Bill 'Hogging' Walker, Semih 'Automatic' Erden and Luke 'the Fluke' Gody.

In other words, if we had not switch the two rookies, my thought is that I assume Johnson would have as much success as Brooks is having now in NJ and Brooks would have as much success as Johnson is having in Beantown.

That would be a nice, comforting thought I suppose, but none of those guys looked as good in Boston (or anywhere else) as Brooks has on an admittedly atrocious team.

What rookies in Boston over the last 30 years have looked as good as Brooks has looked in this very early going?  I'd say only two: Pierce and Rondo.  (And they too had the benefit of starting out on bad teams.)

[Fafnir]

It's easier for a young guard to have success because he's more likely to have the ball in this hand. A young big will have to learn a massive amount of plays where he's away from the ball, which may not be what the typical dominant college player is accustomed to.

Plus a young big has more defensive responsibility put upon him and is also more likely to foul because of this further limiting his minutes depending on the situation.

[csfansince60s]

Rounding back, was JJJ a dominant college player?

And do you guys feel confident that he can beef up enough to be able to play the PF spot long term in the NBA?

Lastly, did anyone hear the rumor that while thin, he bench pressed more than all but one other player in the combines. Or that he was unusually strong for his weight, something along those lines?   

Great questions Scoob.

1. JJJ was both POY and DPOY in the Big Ten. I know it's not the ACC or the Big East, but not bad.

2. He has bench pressed 330 lbs. Very few athletes can bench 100lbs over their body weight except a few football players. At the combine I think he did 12 reps of 185 which was 9th best, but not too shabby.

I think he has the upper body strength. Pretty thin from the waist down though.

Still think he will be good for us and like the pick. A real coachable kid and Brooks not so much.

[slamtheking]

A bit early to worry about this deal backfiring for a few reasons:
1. Brooks is getting lots of court time on a crappy team that's asking him to do what he does best -- shoot without conscience.  If he was in Boston, Doc wouldn't play him because his D isn't what Doc wants (and IMHO because doesn't play rookies).  Bradley would still be playing ahead of him.
2. JJJ isn't getting time on the court for a good team because he's behind KG (future HOF'er and still darn good starter) and Bass (6th man of the year candidate).  He's not taking minutes from either of them no matter how good he is simply because those two are much better.  Even if Doc wanted to play KG only 25 minutes a game, Bass is playing far too well not to give him the other 23 minutes at PF.
3. Danny got a Nets second rounder out of the deal too.  If the rumors are true about Deron being unhappy there and they don't get Dwight, that pick will be almost as good as a late first rounder.  I think Danny will do just fine with it either by finding another 2nd round gem or using it as a trade chip.

I wouldn't worry about this deal until after maybe next year.  If JJJ isn't seeing court time and Brooks is tearing up the league next year then yeah, Danny may have botched that deal.

[libermaniac]

Many fans are left wondering if Ainge 'flopped' on the draft as Brooks excels in New Jersey Nets, but my opinion I always notice is that in the Big 3 era, many talented rookies achieved limited success with the Boston roster. Example players of this theory is Bill 'Hogging' Walker, Semih 'Automatic' Erden and Luke 'the Fluke' Gody.

In other words, if we had not switch the two rookies, my thought is that I assume Johnson would have as much success as Brooks is having now in NJ and Brooks would have as much success as Johnson is having in Beantown.

I'd add Al Jefferson, Chauncy Billups and Joe Johnson to this list.  But, they are all All-Star level players too.  I agree ... if a rookie is good, he generally shows it right away.  Once you start making excuses about Doc not playing rookies, he just needs this or that, etc., the guy just isn't going to be a stud.  What Celtic that was limited in minutes in his rookie year under Doc has ever evolved into solid NBA player?  I can't think of any.  I think Danny whiffed on this one, and I'm a bit bummed about it b/c I was hoping for MarShon before the draft and was thrilled when I heard his name called.  Doh!

That would be a nice, comforting thought I suppose, but none of those guys looked as good in Boston (or anywhere else) as Brooks has on an admittedly atrocious team.

What rookies in Boston over the last 30 years have looked as good as Brooks has looked in this very early going?  I'd say only two: Pierce and Rondo.  (And they too had the benefit of starting out on bad teams.)

[dtrader]

I'm sorry, but I think most of this is just excuses cuz we dont want to admit it was a mistake.  Hindsight is 20/20, but for right now, it's looking like a huge mistake.

1. Brooks is getting a lot of time, because when he was given just a little time, he did a lot with it. He is being asked to score, but saying he's "scoring without conscience" doesnt make sense if you watch him play.  He is scoring within the offense (what little they have).  With the weapons he's shown (midrange, hesitation dribbles, floaters in the lane, 3pt range, etc), he could score 30 if he wanted to play "without conscience".  He is playing confident, but he isnt forcing anything.

2. Brooks isnt a bad defender.  That would be an easy thing to point to, as an excuse for why Doc wouldnt play him...but its just not true.  If all you see is his boxscore stats, you might think that, but he's not a bad defender. On the other side, everyone assumes JJJ will be a good defender, but thats no guarantee. In college he played against weaker competition, and has a size advantage that is gone now that he's in the league.

3. Saying it's easier on Brooks because of his position, doesnt make sense.  Its a guards league right now.  All the elite players are at the wings.  Thats who Brooks competes with every night. A half decent big would find it easier to have success in todays NBA, than a good wing player.  There's no reason a pf should be "expected" to accumulate more fouls than a wing...especially if playing against lesser players every night. Just playing the PF position doesnt mean you automatically have greater defensive responsibility.  Most teams play man...thats a 1-on-1 responsibility for everyone.  Maybe a Center that anchors the defense like Chandler/Perk/Bynum has a greater responsiblity, but a PF known for playing away from the basket like JJJ would never have any extra defensive responsibility.

The main reason Brooks is excelling and JJJ has yet to play, is that Brooks already has the physical gifts and skills to beat his peers, and JJJ doesnt.  JJJ has a great handle and shot for a PF, but he seems to be too weak.  At SF, he'd have a size or strength advantage, but questionable dribble and speed. Until either his stature or skill set develops to the point where he can fulfill all the requirements of a position, Brooks will be superior.

No matter how many minutes they both got, Brooks would come out on top this year. It was easy to criticize his game when he was just scoring on bad teams, but he did the exact same thing to use.  Unless you want to say that we're an equally weak defensive team to those he played before, I think he should be given his due credit.  So far, I think he's competing with Ricky Rubio for ROY

[footey]

Just no, Brooks is far more NBA ready than Johnson and will undoubtedly be the better player in the long run. I'm not a Danny hater but there is no way JJJ would achieve the success Marshon has if he were on the Nets and vice versa.

agreed.