Rondo's shooting: all psychological?

[Interceptor]

I'm not saying that big hands are or aren't Rondo's problems, but if that's never an issue, why are smaller players generally better outside shooters and free throw shooters than bigger players?

Smaller players are a dime a dozen, bigs are rare. When there are a lot of small people who want to play basketball, to make it in the NBA you have to have skills that sets you above everyone else. Shooting is one of those things.

[RyNye]

Smaller players are a dime a dozen, bigs are rare. When there are a lot of small people who want to play basketball, to make it in the NBA you have to have skills that sets you above everyone else. Shooting is one of those things.

Exactly. Only 3-4% of the male population ages 20-29 is over 6'3". That's about 6 million people. The percentage above 6'6" is so small that it is statistically insignificant on the scale of the entire population (i.e. less than 0.1%). Essentially, there are only a couple hundred thousand people in the country who can potentially be tall enough to be a big man (note that I this is just over 6'6" ... if you follow the math, there are less than 100 people in the country over 7'!). This is a pretty small number to work with anyway, and on top of that, you have to include people with the athletic ability and desire to play basketball. Anyway, the point is, people of the right size are incredibly rare in the population as a whole, but are overrepresented in basketball. Therefore, if you are shorter than 6'6", and not part of the 0.1%, you have to make up for it by showing you are more skilled.

[Celtics4ever]

I think the best outside shooters are tall.  I submit the following as proof.  Larry was 6'9'.  Reggie Miller was 6'7" and Ray Allen is 6'5".

I am about 6'8" personally.  I will tell you that this shot is a lot easier when your tall.  A short guy has to go both up and out to make the shot whereas a tall guy has to go out.   It takes me less effort to shoot it than a 6 footer.   Most short guys don't know this because they have not grown through it.  I have.

The only reason short guys are perceived as better shots is that they take more of them.  I could easily out shoot any of the guards I ever played with.  A lot of bigs don't develop it as a skillset.

Larry and Dirk are both tall and could stroke it.   Barry another six seven guy.   I think of free throw shooters I think of Larry, Mark Price and Rick Barry.   Only one of those was a shortie.

[Fafnir]

Steve Nash is confused about how height makes you a better shooter  .

[BballTim]

I'm not saying that big hands are or aren't Rondo's problems, but if that's never an issue, why are smaller players generally better outside shooters and free throw shooters than bigger players?

Smaller players are a dime a dozen, bigs are rare. When there are a lot of small people who want to play basketball, to make it in the NBA you have to have skills that sets you above everyone else. Shooting is one of those things.

  Good point.

[Chris]

I think his free throw shooting is psychological, however, his jump shooting clearly isn't IMO.  His jump shooting goes awry because of his footwork and lower body mechanics.  He has done a lot to fix these, but when he is not shooting in rhythm, he regresses to his old, bad habits.

I do have some hope he will improve though, because this type of thing really takes time to change, because its all muscle memory.  If he can maintain his footwork, then I think he could be a much better shooter this year.  

[BballTim]

I think his free throw shooting is psychological, however, his jump shooting clearly isn't IMO.  His jump shooting goes awry because of his footwork and lower body mechanics.  He has done a lot to fix these, but when he is not shooting in rhythm, he regresses to his old, bad habits.

I do have some hope he will improve though, because this type of thing really takes time to change, because its all muscle memory.  If he can maintain his footwork, then I think he could be a much better shooter this year.  

  I think he might be able to improve his free throw shooting because his misses are pretty close. They're generally straight and are *slightly* long or short. Most bad free throw shooters regularly have airballs or hit the backboard first or clang their misses off to the side.

[Chris]

I think his free throw shooting is psychological, however, his jump shooting clearly isn't IMO.  His jump shooting goes awry because of his footwork and lower body mechanics.  He has done a lot to fix these, but when he is not shooting in rhythm, he regresses to his old, bad habits.

I do have some hope he will improve though, because this type of thing really takes time to change, because its all muscle memory.  If he can maintain his footwork, then I think he could be a much better shooter this year.  

  I think he might be able to improve his free throw shooting because his misses are pretty close. They're generally straight and are *slightly* long or short. Most bad free throw shooters regularly have airballs or hit the backboard first or clang their misses off to the side.

He absolutely can improve his free-throw shooting.  I think that is all mental.  His release is fine, he just needs to get it out of his head. 

[LeoMoreno]

Reckon the different mindset is serving him well? Was it all psychological before? Thoughts on Rondo's shot?

Nope, it's all physical.

Rondo has extremely long arms and large hands for someone who is 6 feet tall.  I'm 6'1" and I bet his fingers are twice as long as mine.

As a guard, my biggest weakness was my ball handling, and I attributed that weakness to my pathetically small hands.  But I had 30-foot range.  A basketball always felt perfect in my shooting motion, but weird when I dribbled.

I bet for Rondo its the exact opposite.  His hands and fingers give him a physical advantage that few people have, which is why he is sick at handling the ball.  But he sucks at FTs (always the best measure of a good or bad shooter).  It's probably because he's got so much going on with his hands he can't get repetition in his shot.

Ray missed all free throws on a 3 point attempt foul.
-trollface.jpg

[kozlodoev]

 I'm not saying that big hands are or aren't Rondo's problems, but if that's never an issue, why are smaller players generally better outside shooters and free throw shooters than bigger players?

Taller players are likely to be asked to play close to the basket. You're not likely to excel in something if you're not going to do it on a regular basis.

[LeoMoreno]

I think the best outside shooters are tall.  I submit the following as proof.  Larry was 6'9'.  Reggie Miller was 6'7" and Ray Allen is 6'5".

I am about 6'8" personally.  I will tell you that this shot is a lot easier when your tall.  A short guy has to go both up and out to make the shot whereas a tall guy has to go out.   It takes me less effort to shoot it than a 6 footer.   Most short guys don't know this because they have not grown through it.  I have.

The only reason short guys are perceived as better shots is that they take more of them.  I could easily out shoot any of the guards I ever played with.  A lot of bigs don't develop it as a skillset.

Larry and Dirk are both tall and could stroke it.   Barry another six seven guy.   I think of free throw shooters I think of Larry, Mark Price and Rick Barry.   Only one of those was a shortie.

I see it differently. When a shorter player shoots, the ball's descent starts just shortly after the ball hits the rim. Also, the descent starts after the highest point, at which the ball has the least energy. The longer the ball falls towards the rim - the more energy it gets.
I remember being an 11 year old and shooting the ball with 90-95% accuracy (not exactly, but I rarely ever missed regardless of position).  Two years later, I grow  a foot and find the stroke, but the ball just won't go in.

Just an example of the arc-work, don't flame me with all the different techniques of shooting, it's got nothing to do with this.

[celtics2]

I think the best outside shooters are tall.  I submit the following as proof.  Larry was 6'9'.  Reggie Miller was 6'7" and Ray Allen is 6'5".

I am about 6'8" personally.  I will tell you that this shot is a lot easier when your tall.  A short guy has to go both up and out to make the shot whereas a tall guy has to go out.   It takes me less effort to shoot it than a 6 footer.   Most short guys don't know this because they have not grown through it.  I have.

The only reason short guys are perceived as better shots is that they take more of them.  I could easily out shoot any of the guards I ever played with.  A lot of bigs don't develop it as a skillset.

Larry and Dirk are both tall and could stroke it.   Barry another six seven guy.   I think of free throw shooters I think of Larry, Mark Price and Rick Barry.   Only one of those was a shortie.

I see it differently. When a shorter player shoots, the ball's descent starts just shortly after the ball hits the rim. Also, the descent starts after the highest point, at which the ball has the least energy. The longer the ball falls towards the rim - the more energy it gets.
I remember being an 11 year old and shooting the ball with 90-95% accuracy (not exactly, but I rarely ever missed regardless of position).  Two years later, I grow  a foot and find the stroke, but the ball just won't go in.

Just an example of the arc-work, don't flame me with all the different techniques of shooting, it's got nothing to do with this.

KG wasn't always a good shooter. His arc was flat. McHale said it was flat. KG found success with more arc.

[Celtics4ever]

What many here probably do not know because they are not tall is a tall guy that jumps can actually shoot down out the bucket.  Hence, less need for rainbow arch and the lower trajectory.  That is why good tall shooter shoot it flat.  I have seen Jordan do it as well when he got up there.

They have done numerous studies on physics of basketball and the mathematics of shooting.   Here are some of them for reference:

Arc
It's long been believed that the higher the arc you have on your jumpshot, the better chance it has of going in. And sports physicist Peter Brancazio proved exactly in researching his book, "SportsScience: Physical Laws and Optimum Performance."

Brancazio found that shooting the ball if a more flat-line manner basically eliminates the nearly-double hoop-to-ball size ration, costinh the shooter that advantage. He found that a 45-degree angle is optimal, though shorter players may see better results by adding even more arc to their shots because the shot originates from a lower plane.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/276942-mathematical-aspects-of-shooting-a-basketball/

The Physics of Shooting


In studying the art of basketball shooting and the secrets of shooting, basketball coach Bob Fisher has discovered that body types, hand size and finger lengths are important in teaching youth, high school and college basketball players how to be successful shooters.

All of the information is included and demonstrated in Coach Bob’s DVD, The Secrets of Shooting.  The physics of basketball shooting lays out all the technical information in easy to understand language and explains in detail about important concepts such as launch speed, launch angle, release height as well as high and low arcs in basketball shots.

Information revealed by Dr. John Fontanella in his book “The Physics of Basketball” shows that launch speed is determined by the amount of force you apply to get the ball to the goal.  How much force is necessary is determined by your distance from the goal.  For example, when shooting a 2-foot shot, you only need a launch speed of approximately 10 miles per hour.  For a 3-point shot you need a launch speed of approximately 18 miles per hour.  More force (speed) is necessary for longer shots to get the ball to the basket.

Launch angle is simply the angle at which you launch the basketball towards the basket.  For our discussion here, having your arm straight out and parallel to the floor is a 0-degree angle.  Having your arm straight up pointing to the ceiling is a 90-degree angle.  Halfway in-between these two extremes would be a 45-degree angle.  Your distance from the goal and the release height of your shot determine the ideal launch angle for a slow moving ball at the rim.  The closer you are to the basket, the higher your launch angle will be.  A two-foot shot released from a height of 8-feet, requires a launch angle of 72 degrees to produce the slowest moving ball at the rim.  As you move away from the basket, your launch angle decreases, a free throw is approximately 51 degrees and a 3-point shot is approximately 45-degrees.

The release height of the basketball shot is largely determined by the height of the player shooting.  According to Professor John Fontanella, the ideal angles from the free throw line are as follows:

5’4″ player should launch the ball at a 52.2 degree angle
5’8″ player should launch the ball at a 51.5 degree angle
6’0″ player should launch the ball at a 50.8 degree angle
6’4″ player should launch the ball at a 50.1 degree angle
6’8″ player should launch the ball at a 49.4 degree angle
7’0″ player should launch the ball at a 48.7 degree angle
These angles produce the slowest moving ball as it approaches the rim, which gives you a shooter’s touch.

HIGHER ARC = BIGGER TARGET

Shooting is an optimization process.  Complicating this matter is the fact that your target area increases with a higher launch angle.  The higher the arc, the larger the target.  In theory it makes sense to shoot with an exaggerated high arc, thereby increasing the size of your target.  However, higher arc requires more force at the time of release to propel the basketball higher, which makes it more difficult to control the shot.  In addition, the shot will no longer be a ‘soft shot’ because gravity increases the speed of the ball as it falls.  For each 0.1 second the basketball falls through the air, it increases in speed.  The faster the ball is moving, the greater the collision with the rim.

Conversely, with a low arc you also need to utilize more force to get the basketball to the rim.  A low launch angle requires more initial speed upon release to get the ball to the basket.

http://www.secretsofshooting.com/the-physics-of-shooting/

Nothing stops a tall guy from shooting as much arch as a little guy.   Larry could shoot with any arch he wanted it is all about skill level.   

Shooting is a skill.  There have been players of all body types that have been able to shoot well.   Therefore, poors shooters lack proper mechanics and skill level.

[bfrombleacher]

I never thought this would turn into a jump shot discussion thread haha. I don't know if posting on your own thread is shunned since I'm not really familiar with internet etiquette but I can't help but post this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlmd7ljeYcA&feature=related

Just can't help it.