Rondo has been angry the Celtics are shopping him

[LB3533]

I'm sure we could both cherry pick good stretches for those two and a bunch of other PGs. Doesn't really advance the discussion though, does it?

Let me try it this way. Only amongst Celtics fans is there any doubt who the better player is.

  Haha. Care to back that up? You could start with all-star voting, where Rondo beat Paul by about 300k votes (20-25% more than CP3 got). Maybe there's doubt among people who realize that CP3's not the player he was in 2008. But, by all means, if you can demonstrate that nobody besides Celts fans has any doubt about who's the better player, go for it.

I'm a Rondo fan, but I don't wear Green Shades anymore.

CP3 is better. He's better when he's hurt and he's way better when he's healthy.

Last November-Janusary, Rondo basically had a historically stretch to start the season. Not since the days of Magic Johsnon & John Stockton did we see the PG play we saw from Rondo.

But I do believe that it was the exception to the rule. If Rondo could have kept that up, he probably would have ran away and won MVP.

Rondo's not a type of player that puts you over the top, he's a facilitator. He needs horses to run with him. If you don't have them, his strengths are greatly hindered.

Because CP3 is so deadly offensively, he can make fairly "scrubbish" players look extremely good. If CP3 played with top level talent...you better look out.

We have historical evidence that shows when we had more Rondo we had less wins. When Rondo was less of the focus and he was out-shinned and still under the shadow of the Big 3, we won a title.

[BballTim]

I'm sure we could both cherry pick good stretches for those two and a bunch of other PGs. Doesn't really advance the discussion though, does it?

Let me try it this way. Only amongst Celtics fans is there any doubt who the better player is.

  Haha. Care to back that up? You could start with all-star voting, where Rondo beat Paul by about 300k votes (20-25% more than CP3 got). Maybe there's doubt among people who realize that CP3's not the player he was in 2008. But, by all means, if you can demonstrate that nobody besides Celts fans has any doubt about who's the better player, go for it.

I'm a Rondo fan, but I don't wear Green Shades anymore.

  No, you go with blinders.

CP3 is better. He's better when he's hurt and he's way better when he's healthy.

Last November-Janusary, Rondo basically had a historically stretch to start the season. Not since the days of Magic Johsnon & John Stockton did we see the PG play we saw from Rondo.

  So, Chris Paul is better that Rondo. He's better when he's hurt and he's better when he's healthy.

  Except for when Rondo plays better than him, that is.

But I do believe that it was the exception to the rule. If Rondo could have kept that up, he probably would have ran away and won MVP.

  Believe it's the exception based on what? The fact that he played worse than that while battling injuries?

Rondo's not a type of player that puts you over the top, he's a facilitator. He needs horses to run with him. If you don't have them, his strengths are greatly hindered.

  Rondo makes the players around him better. I can see you don't get that there's any way for a point guard to contribute to an offense besides scoring, but trust me, it's possible.

Because CP3 is so deadly offensively, he can make fairly "scrubbish" players look extremely good. If CP3 played with top level talent...you better look out.

  Which fairly "scrubbish" players did Chris Paul make look extremely good? And when Rondo has top level talent around him his team's as good as any team in the league.

We have historical evidence that shows when we had more Rondo we had less wins. When Rondo was less of the focus and he was out-shinned and still under the shadow of the Big 3, we won a title.

  What historical evidence do we have that more Rondo means less wins?

[FallGuy]

I'm sure we could both cherry pick good stretches for those two and a bunch of other PGs. Doesn't really advance the discussion though, does it?

Let me try it this way. Only amongst Celtics fans is there any doubt who the better player is.

  Haha. Care to back that up? You could start with all-star voting, where Rondo beat Paul by about 300k votes (20-25% more than CP3 got). Maybe there's doubt among people who realize that CP3's not the player he was in 2008. But, by all means, if you can demonstrate that nobody besides Celts fans has any doubt about who's the better player, go for it.

I think you've chosen your conclusion and are going to ignore anything that doesn't support it but...

All-star voting is a popularity contest. If your argument is that Rondo got more votes, that's fine.

But I'm talking about serious students of the game, analysts, experts as well as empirical evidence. Those all favor CP3. What's more, it's not particularly close.

CP3 had a 23.76 PER last year, 6th in the league. Rondo was 69th at 17.11.

Estimated Wins Added: CP3 - 18.3. RR - 7.7

Zach Lowe of SI had Rondo as the 27th best player in the league in his NBA Top 100. He had Chris Paul ranked 6th.

ESPN's NBA Rankings, which polled 91 different contributors and experts, had Chris Paul 4th. Rondo was 17th.

CBS Sports' team had Chris Paul 8th. Rondo was 22nd.

Chris Paul is better.

[BballTim]

I'm sure we could both cherry pick good stretches for those two and a bunch of other PGs. Doesn't really advance the discussion though, does it?

Let me try it this way. Only amongst Celtics fans is there any doubt who the better player is.

  Haha. Care to back that up? You could start with all-star voting, where Rondo beat Paul by about 300k votes (20-25% more than CP3 got). Maybe there's doubt among people who realize that CP3's not the player he was in 2008. But, by all means, if you can demonstrate that nobody besides Celts fans has any doubt about who's the better player, go for it.

I think you've chosen your conclusion and are going to ignore anything that doesn't support it but...

All-star voting is a popularity contest. If your argument is that Rondo got more votes, that's fine.

But I'm talking about serious students of the game, analysts, experts as well as empirical evidence. Those all favor CP3. What's more, it's not particularly close.

  Yes, I could tell you were talking about serious students of the game, analysts and experts your use of the word "fans".

CP3 had a 23.76 PER last year, 6th in the league. Rondo was 69th at 17.11.

Estimated Wins Added: CP3 - 18.3. RR - 7.7

  These numbers measure individual productivity. If, for instance, Ray's fg% on threes goes up by about 50% when Rondo's in the game than when Rondo's out, how does that show up on Rondo's PER? How about his estimated wins added? Find a stat that accurately measures a player's total impact on the game, and the numbers would be a lot closer. And the numbers from last year when Rondo was healthy(ish) would probably go in Rajon's favor.

[KP43]

Rondo = Better PG

CP3 = Better player

Difference is, Chris is more of a overall PG, but Rajon is more of a true PG. He puts his teammates first, and scores when he has to. Also, Rondo is the better DEFENDER, which is something we should think twice about before even talking about trading anyone for a PG who doesnt want to play here.. Rondo IS a Celtic.. CP3 recently said his heart is in New Orleans, still he wants to leave. Rondo loves Boston, still Danny is shopping him.. yeah, it might be business, but this is getting ridiculous.

Trade Rondo = Trade unbuntu

[greenpride32]

So the latest rumor is the C's, Rockets, Mavs would all consider dealing for CP3 without an extension.  Looks like we might be willing to go all out for one last hurrah with Ray and KG.  If we can't attract CP3 or DH12 here next year might as well go for it as Rondo is NOT a guy you can build around.

[RJ87]

Things Rondo could do to avoid trade rumors in the future:

1.  Work on his attitude;

2.  Develop his jumper;

3.  Learn to hit free throws;

4.  Bring consistent effort at all times;

5.  Don't disappear for the last quarter of the season.

That's perhaps harsh, but I also think it's fair.  He's a great player, but he's not flawless.  As long as there are big holes in his game, the team will inevitably explore upgrades.

#4 and #5 is applicable to the entire team, really. I mean honestly, I forget KG is on this team sometimes until the postgame show. And Ray has really become a streak shooter these days. Yeah, I said it.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but a CP3/Rondo swap doesn't deliver a title to Beantown. It addresses exactly none of our needs or problems. It's doesn't address our lack of bigs and rebounding. It doesn't make us younger and athletic. CP3 might give us a bit more scoring, but if scoring was all we needed to deal with Miami, then maybe everyone wouldn't already be panicking.

Yes, I'm a Rondo fan and want him to stay - but I say this with as little bias as possible. I think PG is the only position where we don't need much tweaking. I mean, we don't even have a starting center (no one say JO until someone gets some proof his knees are less of a concern this season).

[Greenbean]

Things Rondo could do to avoid trade rumors in the future:

1.  Work on his attitude;

2.  Develop his jumper;

3.  Learn to hit free throws;

4.  Bring consistent effort at all times;

5.  Don't disappear for the last quarter of the season.

That's perhaps harsh, but I also think it's fair.  He's a great player, but he's not flawless.  As long as there are big holes in his game, the team will inevitably explore upgrades.

#4 and #5 is applicable to the entire team, really. I mean honestly, I forget KG is on this team sometimes until the postgame show. And Ray has really become a streak shooter these days. Yeah, I said it.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but a CP3/Rondo swap doesn't deliver a title to Beantown. It addresses exactly none of our needs or problems. It's doesn't address our lack of bigs and rebounding. It doesn't make us younger and athletic. CP3 might give us a bit more scoring, but if scoring was all we needed to deal with Miami, then maybe everyone wouldn't already be panicking.

Yes, I'm a Rondo fan and want him to stay - but I say this with as little bias as possible. I actually PG is a position where we don't need much tweaking. I mean, we don't even have a starting center (no one say JO until someone gets some proof his knees are less of a concern this season).

I think the old guys have enough game left to compete for a title...

With Rondo or Paul.

I think they can win it with Paul.

You are obviously not as high as I am about Ray and KG this season.

[LB3533]

I think CP3 does address at least one of our needs and that is an offensive outlet not named BBD, Kendrick Perkins or Rajon Rondo.

Defenses are not going to play off CP3 and if CP3 is open he is going to make those shots with significant high efficiency.

This will relieve the offensive burden off the Big 3, who probably felt the need to carry much more of a load playing with 2 offensively deficient starters.

[BballTim]

I think CP3 does address at least one of our needs and that is an offensive outlet not named BBD, Kendrick Perkins or Rajon Rondo.

Defenses are not going to play off CP3 and if CP3 is open he is going to make those shots with significant high efficiency.

This will relieve the offensive burden off the Big 3, who probably felt the need to carry much more of a load playing with 2 offensively deficient starters.

  People won't play off of CP3 but there will also be a lot less of a need for the opponents to protect the rim with him as our point guard. And Rondo's (generally) a below average scorer, but he's not an offensively deficient player. His overall contribution to our offense is better than what you see from most point guards.

[indeedproceed]

I think CP3 does address at least one of our needs and that is an offensive outlet not named BBD, Kendrick Perkins or Rajon Rondo.

Defenses are not going to play off CP3 and if CP3 is open he is going to make those shots with significant high efficiency.

This will relieve the offensive burden off the Big 3, who probably felt the need to carry much more of a load playing with 2 offensively deficient starters.

  People won't play off of CP3 but there will also be a lot less of a need for the opponents to protect the rim with him as our point guard. And Rondo's (generally) a below average scorer, but he's not an offensively deficient player. His overall contribution to our offense is better than what you see from most point guards.

Really think you're underestimating the effect playing with the big 3 has for Rondo, and would subsequently have for CP3. I don't think that without Rondo we'll have less overall attempts at the rim for a second.

Its basically a 'pick your poison' scenario; would you rather have teams back off Rondo, giving him more passing lanes but a tougher route to the basket (which is the only shot he's really good at), or would you rather stick tight to CP3, opening up the spacing and area around the basket?

They're not equal choices. Rondo attempts so many shots at the rim because that's the only shot attempt he makes with an above average rate and frequency.

Because Rondo plays with 3 HOF players who are both above average shooters and above average playmakers for their respective positions, he gets more attempts at the rim, he gets more spacing to dive to the rim, even with the handicap of his man playing 3 feet off him.

THe only starting point guard in the league with a lower % of his FGA's assisted is Steve Nash. Chris Paul doesn't have the help to play his game, he doesn't have the same benefits Rondo has. The notion that CP3 will somehow make it tougher to score in any way is wrong to me.

[BballTim]

I think CP3 does address at least one of our needs and that is an offensive outlet not named BBD, Kendrick Perkins or Rajon Rondo.

Defenses are not going to play off CP3 and if CP3 is open he is going to make those shots with significant high efficiency.

This will relieve the offensive burden off the Big 3, who probably felt the need to carry much more of a load playing with 2 offensively deficient starters.

  People won't play off of CP3 but there will also be a lot less of a need for the opponents to protect the rim with him as our point guard. And Rondo's (generally) a below average scorer, but he's not an offensively deficient player. His overall contribution to our offense is better than what you see from most point guards.

Really think you're underestimating the effect playing with the big 3 has for Rondo, and would subsequently have for CP3. I don't think that without Rondo we'll have less overall attempts at the rim for a second.

  Without re-checking the stats, the Celts were 10th or so in baskets at the rim, NO was 27th or so. Again from memory, when Rondo's in, he scores or assists roughly 60% of our makes at the rim. When CP3 plays for NO he scores or assists roughly 45% of his team's made baskets at the rim. Also, on a per minute basis, Rondo scores or assists baskets at the rim roughly 50% more often than CP3.

[indeedproceed]

I think CP3 does address at least one of our needs and that is an offensive outlet not named BBD, Kendrick Perkins or Rajon Rondo.

Defenses are not going to play off CP3 and if CP3 is open he is going to make those shots with significant high efficiency.

This will relieve the offensive burden off the Big 3, who probably felt the need to carry much more of a load playing with 2 offensively deficient starters.

  People won't play off of CP3 but there will also be a lot less of a need for the opponents to protect the rim with him as our point guard. And Rondo's (generally) a below average scorer, but he's not an offensively deficient player. His overall contribution to our offense is better than what you see from most point guards.

Really think you're underestimating the effect playing with the big 3 has for Rondo, and would subsequently have for CP3. I don't think that without Rondo we'll have less overall attempts at the rim for a second.

  Without re-checking the stats, the Celts were 10th or so in baskets at the rim, NO was 27th or so. Again from memory, when Rondo's in, he scores or assists roughly 60% of our makes at the rim. When CP3 plays for NO he scores or assists roughly 45% of his team's made baskets at the rim. Also, on a per minute basis, Rondo scores or assists baskets at the rim roughly 50% more often than CP3.

Where are you getting this? I'm using hoopdata.com

Also, you're kinda sidestepping the whole "Having 3 HOF'ers to create plays and spacing helps Rondo's stats quite a bit" argument.

[Inside-Out]

I think CP3 does address at least one of our needs and that is an offensive outlet not named BBD, Kendrick Perkins or Rajon Rondo.

Defenses are not going to play off CP3 and if CP3 is open he is going to make those shots with significant high efficiency.

This will relieve the offensive burden off the Big 3, who probably felt the need to carry much more of a load playing with 2 offensively deficient starters.

  People won't play off of CP3 but there will also be a lot less of a need for the opponents to protect the rim with him as our point guard. And Rondo's (generally) a below average scorer, but he's not an offensively deficient player. His overall contribution to our offense is better than what you see from most point guards.

Really think you're underestimating the effect playing with the big 3 has for Rondo, and would subsequently have for CP3. I don't think that without Rondo we'll have less overall attempts at the rim for a second.

Its basically a 'pick your poison' scenario; would you rather have teams back off Rondo, giving him more passing lanes but a tougher route to the basket (which is the only shot he's really good at), or would you rather stick tight to CP3, opening up the spacing and area around the basket?

They're not equal choices. Rondo attempts so many shots at the rim because that's the only shot attempt he makes with an above average rate and frequency.

Because Rondo plays with 3 HOF players who are both above average shooters and above average playmakers for their respective positions, he gets more attempts at the rim, he gets more spacing to dive to the rim, even with the handicap of his man playing 3 feet off him.

THe only starting point guard in the league with a lower % of his FGA's assisted is Steve Nash. Chris Paul doesn't have the help to play his game, he doesn't have the same benefits Rondo has. The notion that CP3 will somehow make it tougher to score in any way is wrong to me.

If Rondo's man only played 3 feet off him, I wouldn't have a worry about him at all.  But they play as much as 10-12 feet off him, way back in the paint, so far that they have to make it look like they're guarding someone else (by essentially waving at them, often PP while he stands around to set the 2nd pick to free Ray) to avoid an illegal defense call.  Rondo can stand at the FT line, and then his defender is perhaps only 3 feet away.

And though Rondo gets space to get a running start at the rim, everyone else is a bit crowded unless they stand 20+ feet out.  Fortunately, Ray, Paul, and Kevin are among the best shooters at their positions in the entire NBA (world?).

Rondo gets a lot of positive attention for being a pass-first point guard, but when you're perhaps the absolute worst shooter of any PG in the league, I'm not sure he has a choice.

[indeedproceed]

Rondo's passer rating and CP3's passer ratings are identical. Hmmm....