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Author Topic: Rumor: Owners have dropped insistence on hard cap  (Read 10599 times)

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Rumor: Owners have dropped insistence on hard cap
« on: September 28, 2011, 01:02:45 AM »

Offline The Walker Wiggle

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It appears there is some cause for hope, and its being widely reported that tomorrow's negotiations will represent either a meaningful breakthrough or, barring that, likely signal further cancelations. Fingers crossed.

Ken Berger of CBS Sports is among those reporting that the owners have dropped their insistence on a hard cap, instead offering a lower luxury tax threshold, a dramatically increased luxury tax, and adjustments to both the mid-level salary exception and Larry Bird Rights. The BRI split now appears to be the largest hurdle remaining. Players were guaranteed 57% under the previous CBA, and have a offered a 54-46 split. The owners countered last week with their own 46-54 split offer.

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Owners have indicated a willingness to drop their insistence on a hard team salary cap in exchange for adjustments to the luxury tax system and key spending exceptions. The offer by league negotiators came Tuesday in a brief, two-hour bargaining session that set the stage for what one source described as "an important day" on Wednesday.

"It's put up or shut up time," said the person, who is connected to the talks but spoke on condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the negotiations.

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Whether viewed as a meaningful concession or not, the revelation from the owners Tuesday set the stage for an absolutely critical day of negotiating on Wednesday. With more preseason games on the chopping block next week and with an on-time start to the regular season unlikely if there's no deal, this is the moment of truth these negotiations began inching toward last week when league negotiators made a specific proposal on the BRI split for the first time since they offered a flat $2 billion-a-year over the first eight years of a 10-year deal back in June.

Though a person with knowledge of the talks said the union deemed the owners' 46 percent offer "unacceptable," Hunter and Fisher believed it was the starting point in the real negotiations to save the season.

In another wrinkle that could be key to the talks, the NBPA's unfair labor practices charge against the league has been transferred from the National Labor Relations Board's regional office in New York to the general counsel in Washington, D.C. The case file includes the regional director's recommendation about whether a complaint should be issued against the NBA, but the file is sealed, the person said.

Chris Mannix:

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Much more optimistic tone from players after today's meetings. But all agree, Wednesday's bargaining session a seminal moment in talks.

Sam Amico:

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NBA owners said to have "take it or leave it" deal on table for tomorrow's meeting with players. Just like last week. Only they changed it.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 01:09:12 AM by The Walker Wiggle »
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Re: Rumor: Owners have dropped insistence on hard cap
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2011, 01:13:12 AM »

Offline barefacedmonk

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TP for the news.
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Re: Rumor: Owners have dropped insistence on hard cap
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2011, 02:39:41 AM »

Offline stylo617617

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pretty much like when the nfl owners wanted a 18 game season & da players by no means agreed to any part of same thing here with the hard cap & da nba players
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 02:52:09 AM by stylo617617 »
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Re: Rumor: Owners have dropped insistence on hard cap
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2011, 09:28:03 AM »

Offline Chris

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Good news.  I think this was always going to come at this point in the negotiations, and now its time to see if there is a deal to be had.

Right now there are just two worries.  First, will the owners stance have changed once they spoke with the larger group last night?  And second, will the players be able to accept the still more stringent constraints on the cap, or will they hold out for a cap just as soft as the current one. 

It sounds like today we may have a good idea if the season is dead.

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Re: Rumor: Owners have dropped insistence on hard cap
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2011, 09:47:14 AM »

Offline Jeff

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the ebb and flow will likely push back to the negative today, but only because everyone's hopes are up

I don't care if both sides push away from the table in a huff today, all I want to hear is movement on the dollars getting towards the middle a little more

the hard cap was the biggest black/white issue and if that's off the table, then something can get done
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Re: Rumor: Owners have dropped insistence on hard cap
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2011, 10:08:38 AM »

Offline BballTim

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  I wonder what "dramatically increased luxury tax" means. It's already dollar for dollar, what would a dramatic increase be? 2:1? 3:1?
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Re: Rumor: Owners have dropped insistence on hard cap
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2011, 10:11:21 AM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Quote from: BballTim on September 28, 2011, 10:08:38 AM

  I wonder what "dramatically increased luxury tax" means. It's already dollar for dollar, what would a dramatic increase be? 2:1? 3:1?


I'm thinking maybe a lower threshold, maybe even right at the cap line.

EDIT:  Never mind, that was a separate item.  Gotta stop skimming these things.
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Re: Rumor: Owners have dropped insistence on hard cap
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2011, 10:26:11 AM »

Offline Chris

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Quote from: BballTim on September 28, 2011, 10:08:38 AM

  I wonder what "dramatically increased luxury tax" means. It's already dollar for dollar, what would a dramatic increase be? 2:1? 3:1?


I have heard 2:1...which would be significant.

Also, there are reports that the change to the Bird Rights they are proposing is that it will only be able to be used for 1 player per year.  So, it will essentially be like the MLE is now.  I think that would be a GREAT change, because it would not allow teams to just overpay everyone, they would have to pick and choose which ones to keep.
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Re: Rumor: Owners have dropped insistence on hard cap
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2011, 10:40:00 AM »

Offline Jeff

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more from Sheridan

http://sheridanhoops.com/2011/09/28/nba-lockout-luxury-tax/

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NEW YORK — As noted in this earlier post, a few details of what was in the owners’ latest proposal to the players’ union have come to light.
Here is another one: SheridanHoops.com has learned that the owners have proposed four different levels of the luxury tax, with the tax increasing from a dollar-for-dollar levy on teams slightly above the luxury tax threshold (which was  $70.307 million last season, when the Lakers, Magic and Mavericks were reportedly the only tax-paying teams), up to a 4-to-1 tax for teams that go more than $10-15 million over the threshold.
There are also separate triggers for a 2-to-1 tax and a 3-to-1 tax.
Negotiations are resuming this morning in New York, and David Stern has called it a “key day” as the sides are not expected to meet Thursday or Friday because of the Jewish holiday Rosh Hashanah.
But from what I can gather through my discussions with sources is this: Don’t expect any significant breakthroughs today, as the 11th hour has not yet arrived. That’ll come roughly a week from now, when a deal must be cut in order to save the scheduled Nov. 1 start of the regular season.
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Re: Rumor: Owners have dropped insistence on hard cap
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2011, 11:08:31 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Quote from: Jeff on September 28, 2011, 10:40:00 AM
more from Sheridan

http://sheridanhoops.com/2011/09/28/nba-lockout-luxury-tax/

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NEW YORK — As noted in this earlier post, a few details of what was in the owners’ latest proposal to the players’ union have come to light.
Here is another one: SheridanHoops.com has learned that the owners have proposed four different levels of the luxury tax, with the tax increasing from a dollar-for-dollar levy on teams slightly above the luxury tax threshold (which was  $70.307 million last season, when the Lakers, Magic and Mavericks were reportedly the only tax-paying teams), up to a 4-to-1 tax for teams that go more than $10-15 million over the threshold.
There are also separate triggers for a 2-to-1 tax and a 3-to-1 tax.
Negotiations are resuming this morning in New York, and David Stern has called it a “key day” as the sides are not expected to meet Thursday or Friday because of the Jewish holiday Rosh Hashanah.
But from what I can gather through my discussions with sources is this: Don’t expect any significant breakthroughs today, as the 11th hour has not yet arrived. That’ll come roughly a week from now, when a deal must be cut in order to save the scheduled Nov. 1 start of the regular season.

  Yes, that would be a fairly dramatic increase. Most owners will go to great lengths to avoid the 1:1 tax, this should curtail spending over the threshold significantly.
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Re: Rumor: Owners have dropped insistence on hard cap
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2011, 11:53:25 AM »

Offline Interceptor

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This sort of confirms what a lot of people have already suspected: that the hard cap is just a bargaining chip to the owners, not a hard-line demand.  I'm sure that the owners would take the cap if they could get it, but they won't (and they know it), so instead they use it to get concessions elsewhere, in the BRI split and luxury/exception rules.
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Re: Rumor: Owners have dropped insistence on hard cap
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2011, 12:09:12 PM »

Offline Chris

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Now this part of the offer, as reported by Ric Bucher via Sheridan is a little worrying as far as getting a deal done:

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“In last week’s negotiating session, the owners proposed that the players’ share of basketball-related income, or BRI, be sliced from 57 percent to 46 percent, and a source told ESPN.com’s Chris Broussard that the players were offered 48 percent of BRI on Tuesday. The owners also want a five-percent reduction on all existing salaries for this season, a 7.5 percent reduction of all 2012-13 salaries and 10 percent reduction of 2013-14 salaries, a source said.

While I think this makes complete sense if players are agreeing to cut their share of the BRI significantly, I have a feeling it is going to be a VERY tough vote to get guys who are currently under contract to vote for a deal that cuts their current pay.  I hope I am wrong, because I am not sure there is another way around this, short of making contracts not fully guaranteed (which would be a non-starter), but I think this could be the last major hurdle that might get Hunter fired before it gets a deal done.

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Re: Rumor: Owners have dropped insistence on hard cap
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2011, 01:59:25 PM »

Offline Chris

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Forgive me for not having quotes, I am just getting this from twitter, but with todays meeting ajourned, here are what we are hearing so far:

-The meeting ended early, and they are not meeting tomorrow because of the Jewish Holiday
-They will be meeting on Friday in a larger group, with as many as 15 owners planning to be there, as well as the player executive committee.
-According to Fisher, they expect to meet throughout the weekend as well.
-Fisher said he could not state that common ground has been reached, but the desire on both sides to get a deal is strong

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Re: Rumor: Owners have dropped insistence on hard cap
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2011, 02:38:02 PM »

Offline j804

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Quote from: Chris on September 28, 2011, 01:59:25 PM
Forgive me for not having quotes, I am just getting this from twitter, but with todays meeting ajourned, here are what we are hearing so far:

-The meeting ended early, and they are not meeting tomorrow because of the Jewish Holiday
-They will be meeting on Friday in a larger group, with as many as 15 owners planning to be there, as well as the player executive committee.
-According to Fisher, they expect to meet throughout the weekend as well.
-Fisher said he could not state that common ground has been reached, but the desire on both sides to get a deal is strong


This is GREAT news

-me likey
-with NBALP my wallet not so much

 ;D
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Re: Rumor: Owners have dropped insistence on hard cap
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2011, 03:03:32 PM »

Offline Chris

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Stern comes out both stating the obvious, and throwing down the gauntlet at the same time:

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"There are enormous consequences at play here" this weekend. "There will be a lot at risk in the absence of progress."

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"Let's get the two committees in and see whether they can either have a season or not have a season. And that's what's at risk."

In other words, they are in crunch time, and if the bigger groups can not come close to getting the deal done this weekend, games will be cancelled, and they will be starting from scratch.
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