CB DRAFT FINALS THREAD: Sixers Win!!!!!!!

[indeedproceed]

That's an awful lot of cross matching going on. Do you think that will lead to mismatches in one team's favor?

You mean like Iguodala on Delfino and Wade on Harden?  OH NO!!!

I'm just trying to think it through, you have all three of your back court in cross matches, you don't see that in basketball all too often.

You see it pretty often in a zone. But, that's a zone.

Yeah, which I know mgent won't be using based on his previous conversations about the zone.

I'm not sure if all the cross matching helps one team over another.

That's funny, because you'd think with mgent's wings that he'd like their arms in teh passing lanes as often as possible. Zone'll get ya that.

It won't be a zone exactly, but like I said my guys will switch a lot on the perimeter.  Wade knows, he played the same defense with LeBron.  Wade and Iguodala are long and athletic enough to recover quickly, thus never allowing an opportunity to penetrate or pick and pop.  It's how Miami slowed down Ray Allen in the playoffs.

And for the record THIS is the type of team that a 2-3 zone works against.  One that relies on the low post and doesn't have the best slashers or passers to break it easily.

My point guard is a better passer than your point guard. My shooting guard gets an assist about as often as yours does (assist ratio...how often they get an assist per 100 possessions), and well...Delfino isn't near the playmaker Iggy is...but I wouldn't say he's a liability. He's a good facilitator.

I don't think my perimeter players getting the ball to Amare and Bogut is a problem at all. They're all pretty decent ball handlers.

[mgent]

IP/Mgent how do you see the rebounding/possession battle working out for your respective teams.

In the front-court, it should work out pretty even. Bogut is a top-10 rebounder for a center, Varejao is top 12 for a PF. Bogut should benefit a little from the Varejao matchup, but Bogut will be asked to do a heck of a lot defensively, so it ought to even out to Bogut getting maybe 1 or 2 more boards in equal time, with both guys in the 9 to 12 range.

Stoudemire has out-rebounded West in their matchups, but Stoudemire has never played consistently next to a rebounder as good as Bogut from teh 5 (that's why Shawn Marion was so dominant..someone had to get those boards), so I think they'll be again, fairly equivalent.

Lowry is a better rebounder than Hinrich,

Iggy and Wade are both better rebounders than nearly all other SG's (their natural position), but neither of them play in decent rebounding front-courts.

I think honestly that despite holding the advantage in the frontcourt, it'll probably work out to be about even. I don't think either team is going to abuse the other on the boards, and I don't expect the pace to be especially fast when Bogut is out there, and that'll be intentional. In the half-court, the Sixers defense becomes a lot more porous.

EDIT: The biggest problem I see myself having is that on long rebounds, Philly will really be able to get out and run if they have a clear lane, and that'll hurt me because both Iggy and Wade are gifted passers and great in transition.

Everything IP said, except my team is better at getting steals and forcing TOs, and not only is that a loss of possession, but also an automatic 2 points for Wade or Iguodala.

[Fafnir]

IP/Mgent how do you see the rebounding/possession battle working out for your respective teams.

In the front-court, it should work out pretty even. Bogut is a top-10 rebounder for a center, Varejao is top 12 for a PF. Bogut should benefit a little from the Varejao matchup, but Bogut will be asked to do a heck of a lot defensively, so it ought to even out to Bogut getting maybe 1 or 2 more boards in equal time, with both guys in the 9 to 12 range.

Stoudemire has out-rebounded West in their matchups, but Stoudemire has never played consistently next to a rebounder as good as Bogut from teh 5 (that's why Shawn Marion was so dominant..someone had to get those boards), so I think they'll be again, fairly equivalent.

Lowry is a better rebounder than Hinrich,

Iggy and Wade are both better rebounders than nearly all other SG's (their natural position), but neither of them play in decent rebounding front-courts.

I think honestly that despite holding the advantage in the frontcourt, it'll probably work out to be about even. I don't think either team is going to abuse the other on the boards, and I don't expect the pace to be especially fast when Bogut is out there, and that'll be intentional. In the half-court, the Sixers defense becomes a lot more porous.

EDIT: The biggest problem I see myself having is that on long rebounds, Philly will really be able to get out and run if they have a clear lane, and that'll hurt me because both Iggy and Wade are gifted passers and great in transition.

Everything IP said, except my team is better at getting steals and forcing TOs, and not only is that a loss of possession, but also an automatic 2 points for Wade or Iguodala.

Yeah if your frontcourt is your advantage you should be winning the battle in the paint on both sides, not just one.

[Roy H.]

My take on this series is that it all boils down to which superstar you believe can carry his team to a championship.

Wade is the second best player in the league and carried a team with a worst supporting cast than he has with this group in Philly to a championship in 06. He's an assassin in big moments, he's tough, he plays defense and a born leader.

Amare once had the ability to do it all and then the knee/leg injury happened and his attitude soured in Phoenix and his game change some. His rebounding numbers and rebounding percentages have dropped. His defensive rating, which was in the 101-104 area even though he played for Phoenix has jumped to the 108-109 area. I'm not going to look up the numbers but my guess is his PER against has done a similar leap over the last three years

Amare is  a tremendous offensive player but reluctant to pass, an indifferent defender at best, and a player that has lost the bulldoggedness one wants to see from a 6'11" guy when rebounding. He has never been a leader.

And he has to play David West, who, although he will give up points to Amare, who doesn't, will get his against Amare. Amare will do nothing to hinder the Philly offense because he doesn't have it in him to try to shut down West.

This to me is the key.

Bogut is a better center than Varejao but AV has had success against him. Slight advantage Portland

Amare will score but so will West. Slight advantage Portland.

Iguodala will handle Delfino and the rookie. Advantage Philly.

Wade will dominate Harden. Harden is probably best suited as a 6th man type. Him having to match up against Wade who brings it on both ends of the floor, is tremendous strong and quick and will get all the calls, makes this a huge advantage for Philly.

Hinrich and Lowry are a push. I really like both players but Hinrich is a plus defender and I want to see Lowry do what he's done another year before I start anointing him into the top 10 PGs discussion.

The benches are kinda equal but I have to go advantage Philly because of Barbosa's and Martin's playoff experience.

Lastly, if we are doing the hypothetical read into what the voting means thing, Portland just got out of a tremendously close series that they were lucky to win because Lebron choked on the big stage. Ask most of the people who voted for Portland last round and I am guessing that was their interpretation.

Wade won't choke and Portland won't be lucky a second time.


Philly in six maybe 5.

That's really very close to how I see it.  I don't see this as a particularly close series.  As much as I'd love to see it going seven games, I really think this is a fairly mundane six game series.

[mgent]

That's an awful lot of cross matching going on. Do you think that will lead to mismatches in one team's favor?

You mean like Iguodala on Delfino and Wade on Harden?  OH NO!!!

I'm just trying to think it through, you have all three of your back court in cross matches, you don't see that in basketball all too often.

You see it pretty often in a zone. But, that's a zone.

Yeah, which I know mgent won't be using based on his previous conversations about the zone.

I'm not sure if all the cross matching helps one team over another.

That's funny, because you'd think with mgent's wings that he'd like their arms in teh passing lanes as often as possible. Zone'll get ya that.

It won't be a zone exactly, but like I said my guys will switch a lot on the perimeter.  Wade knows, he played the same defense with LeBron.  Wade and Iguodala are long and athletic enough to recover quickly, thus never allowing an opportunity to penetrate or pick and pop.  It's how Miami slowed down Ray Allen in the playoffs.

And for the record THIS is the type of team that a 2-3 zone works against.  One that relies on the low post and doesn't have the best slashers or passers to break it easily.

My point guard is a better passer than your point guard. My shooting guard gets an assist about as often as yours does (assist ratio...how often they get an assist per 100 possessions), and well...Delfino isn't near the playmaker Iggy is...but I wouldn't say he's a liability. He's a good facilitator.

I don't think my perimeter players getting the ball to Amare and Bogut is a problem at all. They're all pretty decent ball handlers.

I don't think so either, I was just bringing up that hypothetical zone, that every team brought up against me, but no team implemented, just like how I'm not going to implement it.

It would be much more effective vs your team than mine though, and it wouldn't be as easy for them to break it.

[Roy H.]

Here's the thing Kane. People who voted Portland last series voted anti-Lebron not pro Portland. They voted Lebron crumbling under the pressure not Bogut or Delfino stopping LeBron. They voted LeBron stopping LeBron and I challenge any person who voted Portland last series to say different(except IP that is).

I voted for the Kings, and this is more of the same crap that Roy threw out earlier in this thread. Complete and utter junk.

I voted Blazers, and I agree with nick.  If Lebron plays up to his full ability, the Kings cruise over the Blazers.  I just don't think he would have, because the Blazers have two things that have coincided with Lebron choke jobs in the past:  a good team defense and a star player to take advantage on the other side.  The same would have been true against Philly, but very few other teams.

So yes, mine was an anti-Lebron vote.

[mgent]

Here's the thing Kane. People who voted Portland last series voted anti-Lebron not pro Portland. They voted Lebron crumbling under the pressure not Bogut or Delfino stopping LeBron. They voted LeBron stopping LeBron and I challenge any person who voted Portland last series to say different(except IP that is).

I voted for the Kings, and this is more of the same crap that Roy threw out earlier in this thread. Complete and utter junk.

I voted Blazers, and I agree with nick.  If Lebron plays up to his full ability, the Kings cruise over the Blazers.  I just don't think he would have, because the Blazers have two things that have coincided with Lebron choke jobs in the past:  a good team defense and a star player to take advantage on the other side.  The same would have been true against Philly, but very few other teams.

So yes, mine was an anti-Lebron vote.

Yeah, too bad the Kings didn't make it.  I would've saved a lot of time arguing and just did this

[Donoghus]

Here's the thing Kane. People who voted Portland last series voted anti-Lebron not pro Portland. They voted Lebron crumbling under the pressure not Bogut or Delfino stopping LeBron. They voted LeBron stopping LeBron and I challenge any person who voted Portland last series to say different(except IP that is).

I voted for the Kings, and this is more of the same crap that Roy threw out earlier in this thread. Complete and utter junk.

I voted Blazers, and I agree with nick.  If Lebron plays up to his full ability, the Kings cruise over the Blazers.  I just don't think he would have, because the Blazers have two things that have coincided with Lebron choke jobs in the past:  a good team defense and a star player to take advantage on the other side.  The same would have been true against Philly, but very few other teams.

So yes, mine was an anti-Lebron vote.

Fine but the issue that Faf & myself had was the implication that anyone who voted for Portland was doing it from an anti-Lebron standpoint and not a pro-Blazers standpoint.  To me, thats a slap in the face of IP (whose done a helluva job as a GM) and simply not true.

I know, firsthand, and you can go back to what I wrote last night when I voted that it had nothing to do with anti-Lebron sentiment.  

The thing that irks me is that some people seem to act like they know what's going on in other voter's heads.  

[Donoghus]

I will say that Nick did clear the air with clarification and I'm totally done with it so its a pretty moot issue to me now.

[Roy H.]

After having several more hours to think about this...  I still don't see how anybody objectively thinks that the best team defense in the CB-NBA plus the league's most clutch superstar would lose to a team that starts Carlos Delfino, James Harden, and Kyle Lowry.  

The unfocused / undisciplined Amare Stoudemire is going to carry a team on his shoulders to victory (against a good defensive front line)?  On what planet?

All the people saying "I don't like Iguodala"...  are you huge Carlos Delfino fans?  Do you think James Harden suddenly became a consistent player?  Is Kyle Lowry appreciably better than the 13 ppg scorer he was in every month outside of one last year?  (The same Kyle Lowry who can't stand internal competition on his team?)  

All the people saying "I don't think David West will be healthy"...  do you really think Bogut would be?  And who are you more comfortable with, a team with Robin Lopez as a backup, or Kenyon Martin?

People get upset about me wondering if they're being truly objective, but for the life of me I can't understand why people are picking at nits with the Sixers, while just accepting that Kyle Lowry, James Harden, and Carlos Freakin' Delfino are all going to be proven playoff players.

Again:  Dwyane Wade has as many career playoff minutes as Portland's top six players combined.  Doesn't that count for anything, even ignoring that Wasde is by far the best player in this series?

(Clarification:  just because I can't understand others' reasoning doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.  I just normally don't have this type of disconnect with my fellow fans.  I'd love to hear somebody -- other than IP's -- reasoning why the Blazers win this series, beyond "I like Portland's front line better" or "I don't really trust Iguodala and/or West".)

[Fafnir]

Well IP you just convinced me that Philly will win. You have the better front court, he has the better back court. Iggy is a great defender and glue guy and an okay offensive player, similar to Bogut. The differen is that Amar'e is one dimensional and Wade is not.

I do think that big men matter the most in basketball and that's because of rim protection, rebounding, anchoring a defense, and high efficiency scoring you get from the paint.

You have the scoring and rim protection, but if you are not winning the possesion battle down low I don't see how you can overcome Wade's mismatch on the perimeter.

I think it'd be a 6 or 7 game series depending on how the ball bounces, but philly would win.

[mgent]

I think Roy's calling for this year's playoff stats again.

Amare's playoff averages:  14.5ppg, 7.8rpg, 1.8 apg,  38% shooting
Wade's finals averages:  26.5ppg, 7rpg, 5.2apg,  55% shooting


Or the perimeter matchups:
Hinrich vs Lowry

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=lowryky01&p2=hinriki01


Wade vs Harden

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=wadedw01&p2=hardeja01


Iguodala vs Delfino

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=iguodan01&p2=delfica01



Also:  Wade 1 ring + Finals trophy, Amare = nothing

THINK IT THROUGH PEOPLE!!!

[Fafnir]

I think Roy's calling for this year's playoff stats again.

Amare's playoff averages:  14.5ppg, 7.8rpg, 1.8 apg,  38% shooting
Wade's finals averages:  26.5ppg, 7rpg, 5.2apg,  55% shooting

I really dislike this argument you should retire it, especially given how Amar'e was killing the C's before his injury.

I mean IP could post the stats from last three chicago games where Wade played like garbage, but that wouldn't tell you much about Wade's playoff performance.

[Roy H.]

I think Roy's calling for this year's playoff stats again.

Amare's playoff averages:  14.5ppg, 7.8rpg, 1.8 apg,  38% shooting
Wade's finals averages:  26.5ppg, 7rpg, 5.2apg,  55% shooting

I really dislike this argument you should retire it, especially given how Amar'e was killing the C's before his injury.

I mean IP could post the stats from last three chicago games where Wade played like garbage, but that wouldn't tell you much about Wade's playoff performance.

Yeah, the only thing it tells you is that Wade played better injured than Amare did.

[KCattheStripe]

Roy,

It's because I don't believe that the 76ers have the best team defense in the CBNBA that I don't think they have a prayer of winning this series. Hinrich has lost a step defensively. varejo is bad defender at the 5 spot against quality offensive 5s. David West at his best was an alright defender at the 4 who couldn't contain athletic 4s. They have two tremendous wing defenders, but almost none of IPs attack comes from the wings. I see the 76ers as poor copy of this past years heat. A team with tremendous defense that could contain opposing wings but could not adequately contain offensive pressure coming from the 4 and the Point Guard. Add in Bogut and that's simply too much for the 76ers to contain.