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Does This Mean Lebron is the Problem?
« on: June 13, 2011, 08:10:36 AM »

Offline Bankshot

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Everyone was saying not to blame Lebron because he had no good teammates in Cleveland.  In Miami they looked like world beaters, until they got to the Finals where Lebron had one of the biggest drop offs in history in scoring from the regular season to the Finals.  He didn't get it done in the 4th quarter, scoring wise or defensively, like he did against the Celtics or the Bulls.  Berea and Jason Terry had bigger impacts in this series than Lebron.

Something happens to Lebron when the lights get their brightest, doesn't matter who is on his team.  

I am happy that Miami lost, but I thought there was no way they would lose to Dallas with two of the top 5 players in the league on their team.  Works for me though. ;D
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Re: Does This Mean Lebron is the Problem?
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2011, 08:26:11 AM »

Online Who

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LeBron was the problem in the Finals.

His relatively (by his standards) poor performance was the main reason they lost.

I think it would be premature to assume that that will continue into the future. LeBron has a lot of big pressure packed moments ahead of him and he can improve through those games and his previous experiences. I think he'll come out the other side and have some wonderful performances on the biggest stage by the time his career is done.

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Re: Does This Mean Lebron is the Problem?
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2011, 08:29:42 AM »

Offline CelticsFanNC

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  For whatever reason LeBron James doesn't trust his own abilities when it matters the most in the biggest games.  How often did Jordan or Bird ever defer to their teammates in big games or big moments??  They didn't.   If they were going to go down there were going to go down swinging not standing in the corner avoiding the ball. 

 Watching LBJ pass the ball around like a hot potato rather then taking it to the hole in the 4th quarters of these Finals games made it crystal clear to me.  For all of his bravado and his massive ego LeBron James is lacking something very fundamental that all of the immortals of the NBA shared.  He lacks the will, the burning desire to succeed even if it means carrying his team there on his back.  He just doesn't have "IT".
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Re: Does This Mean Lebron is the Problem?
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2011, 08:33:32 AM »

Online Moranis

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Quote from: CelticsFanNC on June 13, 2011, 08:29:42 AM
 For whatever reason LeBron James doesn't trust his own abilities when it matters the most in the biggest games.  How often did Jordan or Bird ever defer to their teammates in big games or big moments??  They didn't.   If they were going to go down there were going to go down swinging not standing in the corner avoiding the ball. 

 Watching LBJ pass the ball around like a hot potato rather then taking it to the hole in the 4th quarters of these Finals games made it crystal clear to me.  For all of his bravado and his massive ego LeBron James is lacking something very fundamental that all of the immortals of the NBA shared.  He lacks the will, the burning desire to succeed even if it means carrying his team there on his back.  He just doesn't have "IT".
I don't know, I seem to recall Jordan often passing the ball to Paxson and Kerr for them to take game winning shots.  Sure MJ hit his own, but he did give up the rock a fair amount as well.  Of course Paxson and Kerr hit the shots so people don't talk about the fact that MJ passed it to them.
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Re: Does This Mean Lebron is the Problem?
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2011, 08:41:00 AM »

Offline adamantium17

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Quote from: Moranis on June 13, 2011, 08:33:32 AM
Quote from: CelticsFanNC on June 13, 2011, 08:29:42 AM
 For whatever reason LeBron James doesn't trust his own abilities when it matters the most in the biggest games.  How often did Jordan or Bird ever defer to their teammates in big games or big moments??  They didn't.   If they were going to go down there were going to go down swinging not standing in the corner avoiding the ball. 

 Watching LBJ pass the ball around like a hot potato rather then taking it to the hole in the 4th quarters of these Finals games made it crystal clear to me.  For all of his bravado and his massive ego LeBron James is lacking something very fundamental that all of the immortals of the NBA shared.  He lacks the will, the burning desire to succeed even if it means carrying his team there on his back.  He just doesn't have "IT".
I don't know, I seem to recall Jordan often passing the ball to Paxson and Kerr for them to take game winning shots.  Sure MJ hit his own, but he did give up the rock a fair amount as well.  Of course Paxson and Kerr hit the shots so people don't talk about the fact that MJ passed it to them.

If you're talking about the Steve Kerr top of the key jumper, It was actually Kerr who told MJ in the huddle that he was ready to take the big shot. It was such a validating moment for Jordan proved that His greatness didn't only revolved around his scoring ability but also lifted the game of his teammates.
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Re: Does This Mean Lebron is the Problem?
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2011, 08:41:41 AM »

Offline Bankshot

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Quote from: Moranis on June 13, 2011, 08:33:32 AM
Quote from: CelticsFanNC on June 13, 2011, 08:29:42 AM
 For whatever reason LeBron James doesn't trust his own abilities when it matters the most in the biggest games.  How often did Jordan or Bird ever defer to their teammates in big games or big moments??  They didn't.   If they were going to go down there were going to go down swinging not standing in the corner avoiding the ball. 

 Watching LBJ pass the ball around like a hot potato rather then taking it to the hole in the 4th quarters of these Finals games made it crystal clear to me.  For all of his bravado and his massive ego LeBron James is lacking something very fundamental that all of the immortals of the NBA shared.  He lacks the will, the burning desire to succeed even if it means carrying his team there on his back.  He just doesn't have "IT".
I don't know, I seem to recall Jordan often passing the ball to Paxson and Kerr for them to take game winning shots.  Sure MJ hit his own, but he did give up the rock a fair amount as well.  Of course Paxson and Kerr hit the shots so people don't talk about the fact that MJ passed it to them.

Yeah, but Lebron really didn't put his imprint on this game, certainly not like he did against the Celtics or the Bulls, especially in the 4th quarter.  Like I said, Barea and Jason Terry were more impact players.
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Re: Does This Mean Lebron is the Problem?
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2011, 08:55:15 AM »

Offline greenpride32

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Everyone hates Lebron and blame will always go towards him.  But this series really exposed all the flaws MIA had all season long.  They don't have good bigs.  I think Joel Anthoy more or less got benched the past couple of games.  They don't have a reliable point guard.  Chalmers may have hit some big 3's but he was an unwanted guy in MIA prior to this year.  House had to come in and play because Bibby was useless against JJ and just in general.  They still haven't learned how to play together with Bosh not getting touches. 

Basically you're looking at very weak 1 and 5 positions (remember this was were the C's were supposed to dominiate MIA?) along with very good 2, 3, 4s, but not good enough to cover  the 1 and 5 flaws every night.
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Re: Does This Mean Lebron is the Problem?
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2011, 09:11:30 AM »

Offline Bankshot

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Quote from: greenpride32 on June 13, 2011, 08:55:15 AM
Everyone hates Lebron and blame will always go towards him.  But this series really exposed all the flaws MIA had all season long.  They don't have good bigs.  I think Joel Anthoy more or less got benched the past couple of games.  They don't have a reliable point guard.  Chalmers may have hit some big 3's but he was an unwanted guy in MIA prior to this year.  House had to come in and play because Bibby was useless against JJ and just in general.  They still haven't learned how to play together with Bosh not getting touches. 

Basically you're looking at very weak 1 and 5 positions (remember this was were the C's were supposed to dominiate MIA?) along with very good 2, 3, 4s, but not good enough to cover  the 1 and 5 flaws every night.

The Celtics had the same problem in 2008, at least that's what people were saying... "can the Celtics win a championship with Rondo and Perkins in the starting lineup."  Remember that?  I think the Heat's Big 3 didn't play well enough.  Look at what they did in 4th quarters, especially Lebron.  The Big 3 is supposed to carry the team to wins, like the Celtics Big 3 did.  Although Wade and Lebron are more talented than the Celtics, the Celtics Big 3 played better as a group than the Heat's Big 3, imo.

Their supporting cast should have been just as good or better than the Celtics supporting cast in 2008.  The Celts had House, PJ and Posey.  The Heat have House, Chalmers, Miller and Haslem.

The Heat's Big 3 just couldn't get it done when it mattered most.
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"If somebody would have told you when he was playing with the Knicks that Nate Robinson was going to change a big time game and he was going to do it mostly because of his defense, somebody would have got slapped."  Mark Jackson
Re: Does This Mean Lebron is the Problem?
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2011, 09:21:34 AM »

Offline housecall

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Yes Lebron is part of the problem with the Heat losing but the Mavs has a deeper better bench also.In the closeout game Mavs bench scored a much higher number than the Heat's bench.When the Mavs bench showed up the Mavs won.Although by Lebron not showing up in 4th quarters in most games says a lot.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 09:31:27 AM by housecall »
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Re: Does This Mean Lebron is the Problem?
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2011, 09:23:17 AM »

Offline CelticSooner

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LeBron's biggest problem (outside of a consistent jumper and mediocre post game) is he doesn't know when to force the action and when not too. He is either too much of a ballhog or too passive. If he can fine tune that aspect of his game the sky is the limit. I question that ever happening though because I think he lacks the complete mental game the greats had.
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Re: Does This Mean Lebron is the Problem?
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2011, 09:26:37 AM »

Offline radiohead

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The sight of Lebron swinging the ball to a teammate in the 4th quarter was really mind boggling. Like the other poster said, MJ did that too (the steve kerr pass), but Lebron was just simply too passive. MJ knew when to take over a game. LBJ simply refused to do so. Dirk was shooting 1-11 at one point, but he didn't stop being the leader of the Mavs and eventually hit some big shots in the 4th quarter. He didn't stop shooting the ball and was willing to take the blame if they lost. I can't say the same for LBJ.
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Re: Does This Mean Lebron is the Problem?
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2011, 09:32:12 AM »

Offline CelticsFanNC

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Quote from: Moranis on June 13, 2011, 08:33:32 AM
Quote from: CelticsFanNC on June 13, 2011, 08:29:42 AM
 For whatever reason LeBron James doesn't trust his own abilities when it matters the most in the biggest games.  How often did Jordan or Bird ever defer to their teammates in big games or big moments??  They didn't.   If they were going to go down there were going to go down swinging not standing in the corner avoiding the ball. 

 Watching LBJ pass the ball around like a hot potato rather then taking it to the hole in the 4th quarters of these Finals games made it crystal clear to me.  For all of his bravado and his massive ego LeBron James is lacking something very fundamental that all of the immortals of the NBA shared.  He lacks the will, the burning desire to succeed even if it means carrying his team there on his back.  He just doesn't have "IT".
I don't know, I seem to recall Jordan often passing the ball to Paxson and Kerr for them to take game winning shots.  Sure MJ hit his own, but he did give up the rock a fair amount as well.  Of course Paxson and Kerr hit the shots so people don't talk about the fact that MJ passed it to them.


  Yes Jordan and Bird both made plays for their teammates in the clutch but they were also always right in the middle of the action.  This isn't always the case the case with James.  He has in more then a few games looked like he is hoping someone else bails him out, hiding in the corner and not looking to make plays.
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Re: Does This Mean Lebron is the Problem?
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2011, 09:37:08 AM »

Offline action781

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Quote from: CelticsFanNC on June 13, 2011, 08:29:42 AM
 For whatever reason LeBron James doesn't trust his own abilities when it matters the most in the biggest games.  How often did Jordan or Bird ever defer to their teammates in big games or big moments??  They didn't.   If they were going to go down there were going to go down swinging not standing in the corner avoiding the ball. 

 Watching LBJ pass the ball around like a hot potato rather then taking it to the hole in the 4th quarters of these Finals games made it crystal clear to me.  For all of his bravado and his massive ego LeBron James is lacking something very fundamental that all of the immortals of the NBA shared.  He lacks the will, the burning desire to succeed even if it means carrying his team there on his back.  He just doesn't have "IT".

TP for my love of your use of the word "immortal" here.  About a month ago I had this feeling that some players in the NBA were "basketball immortal" and was discussing it with my friend.  I thought some players like MJ, Hakeem, Nash, and Kobe were basketball immortal.  The plays they made/make just seem unfathomable.  It sounds cliche, but they really seemed to be able to just will the ball into the hoop at times.

The ones on the bubble were Iverson, Dirk and Lebron.  I was on the fence whether or not Lebron fits into that category or not.  I think it's more his insane athleticism than this basketball immortality that has brought him to his current level of greatness.
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Re: Does This Mean Lebron is the Problem?
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2011, 09:55:13 AM »

Offline The DarkPassenger

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This is the story of LeBron thus far in his career: he disappears in the playoffs and it will continue to follow him. I've never thought that LeBron was better than Jordan or any of the other Hall of Famers and that he is over hyped. Is he a good player? Absolutely. Is he one of the best in the league right now? Absolutely. Is he one of the greats? No way.

LeBron is the problem when he is just standing around and making horrible decisions and making mistakes that someone with his hype shouldn't make in crunch time. The Heat will never win until they really drop the attraction for stats and the spotlight. You look at the other Big 3 teams and they always had some great role players who stepped up.
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Re: Does This Mean Lebron is the Problem?
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2011, 10:08:03 AM »

Offline MBunge

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Quote from: Bankshot on June 13, 2011, 09:11:30 AM
Quote from: greenpride32 on June 13, 2011, 08:55:15 AM
Everyone hates Lebron and blame will always go towards him.  But this series really exposed all the flaws MIA had all season long.  They don't have good bigs.  I think Joel Anthoy more or less got benched the past couple of games.  They don't have a reliable point guard.  Chalmers may have hit some big 3's but he was an unwanted guy in MIA prior to this year.  House had to come in and play because Bibby was useless against JJ and just in general.  They still haven't learned how to play together with Bosh not getting touches. 

Basically you're looking at very weak 1 and 5 positions (remember this was were the C's were supposed to dominiate MIA?) along with very good 2, 3, 4s, but not good enough to cover  the 1 and 5 flaws every night.

The Celtics had the same problem in 2008, at least that's what people were saying... "can the Celtics win a championship with Rondo and Perkins in the starting lineup."  Remember that?  I think the Heat's Big 3 didn't play well enough.  Look at what they did in 4th quarters, especially Lebron.  The Big 3 is supposed to carry the team to wins, like the Celtics Big 3 did.  Although Wade and Lebron are more talented than the Celtics, the Celtics Big 3 played better as a group than the Heat's Big 3, imo.

Their supporting cast should have been just as good or better than the Celtics supporting cast in 2008.  The Celts had House, PJ and Posey.  The Heat have House, Chalmers, Miller and Haslem.

The Heat's Big 3 just couldn't get it done when it mattered most.

Gah.  I can't believe I have to stick up for LeBron but that isn't entirely fair.

Was there another team in the playoffs that would have willingly started Chalmers or Bibby at PG?  Would any other playoff team have willingly started Joel Anthony at center?  While many would have liked to have had Miller or Haslem coming off the bench, how many playoff teams this season would have willingly relied on either as key 4th quarter contributors?  Bron went to Miami to share the load but ironically ended up with a team that was almost as dependent on him doing everything as Cleveland was.

Mike
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