Author Topic: Is this collusion?  (Read 8725 times)

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Re: Is this collusion?
« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2011, 12:43:58 PM »

Offline OsirusCeltics

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Also, credit Pat Riley for presenting a compelling enough case for Bosh and the Queen. Altough selling the city of Miami to a Clevelander and Torontonian is like selling water in the desert, there was still a sales pitch that was effectively put together by that management group...a la Red Auerbach.


  I thought they decided to play together a few years ago, on team USA or something. Giving Riley much credit (if any) for getting James and Bosh seems a little misplaced. It's somewhat like using a great pickup line on a hooker.


Bingo! lol
TP

Re: Is this collusion?
« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2011, 01:02:18 PM »

Offline JSD

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Wow. So this was even before he was a free agent? I'm starting to believe James didn't want Cleveland to have cap flexibility in 2010. It took the recruiting to Cleveland scenario off the table and he knew he was going Miami a long time ago.

Re: Is this collusion?
« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2011, 01:07:42 PM »

Offline housecall

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 David Sterns says there wasn't anything wrong with how they(Heat)formed their team this past season.If i had a problem with this guy before it has growen bigger after listening to him in a pregame show in Dallas(Game#4)on NBA.TV...David Aldredge asked Mr.Sterns how he felt about the way the Heat came together by adding Lebron&Bosh.His answer was "I can't see why a lot of people have a problem with it.Its no difference in what the Boston Celtics did when they acquired Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen".Sterns went on to say how they probably discussed it during their summer playing for team USA(Gold).He also tried to make the Lakers and Celtics teams of the 80's seem similar to what these guys have done.
If i didn't know before where he(Sterns)stood on the possibility of it being collusion i found out in that interview.

I wish someone would dig up the audio for CB members.  
« Last Edit: June 11, 2011, 01:45:28 PM by housecall »

Re: Is this collusion?
« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2011, 11:40:34 PM »

Offline PosImpos

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It was bad management because he became a bust and they ended up giving him away for nothing only a couple years after drafting him . . . . what would you call that?

I think we can agree to disagree on whether Beasley is a bust or not. Is he a disappointment considering where he was drafted? Yes. But overall, a decent player.

He was drafted #2 overall and two years later they traded him away for nothing.

THAT IS A BUST.  Regardless of his production on the next team he played for.
Never forget the Champs of '08, or the gutsy warriors of '10.

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Re: Is this collusion?
« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2011, 11:48:00 PM »

Offline PosImpos

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Players getting together and deciding that they are going to play together -- especially if they decide they will play on a specific team -- prior to free agency and negotiations with team officials is a problem because it undermines the ability of GMs to build winning teams. 

I disagree with this - why would it undermine the ability of GMs to build winning teams? Make your team a free agent destination and this won't be a problem.

Here's the problem -- not every team in the league has the option of making themselves a free agent destination.  If you're not a big market, you have to get really lucky in draft and get a major superstar to attract other free agents.  Under current rules, you might still lose that major superstar you got in the draft because they'll bolt for nothing or coerce you into trading them for a jumble of prospects (i.e. 5 nickels for a quarter).

Quote
I want an NBA where great teams are built from the ground up by smart GMs and well-run organizations that are good at scouting, acquiring, and developing talent.  I don't want an NBA where great teams are created when (as Rick Reilly puts it) the best kids on the playground decide to get together and beat up everybody else.

I would argue, as others have on this thread, Riley did the very thing that you're talking about. Who drafted Mario Chalmers? Who traded Michael Beasley? Who developed Udonis Haslem? Are you against free agency in general? Nevertheless, what the Heat trio did was not entirely unprecedented. Stars have tried to pull this stuff for years.

Credit to the Heat for drafting and developing Chalmers and Haslem.  Those were good moves.  However, those are just role players.  The Heat aren't a great organization just because they developed two solid role players.  Am I supposed to give them credit for drafting Michael Beasley (sort of a bust for #2 overall), not developing him well, and then trading him for nothing to make cap space because they knew they'd be signing free agents come 2010?  I wouldn't call that good management.

Quote
If a team wants to amass 3 superstars the way the Heat did, they should be prepared to trade away assets they've put together and developed over a long period of time (like the Celtics did).

This is exactly what the Heat did. You may not like the end result, but hey, other teams weren't smart enough.

Um, how were other teams not smart enough?  Many other teams did exactly the same thing.  Many other teams had cap space and money to throw at free agents.  Wade, James, and Bosh just picked Miami.  Was that partly because Pat Riley has a winning resume and made a good pitch?  Sure.  But was it also partly because Miami is inherently a nice place to play.  Absolutely.

The greatness of the Heat has something to do with their management.  I will admit that.  A badly managed team could not have pulled off what they did.  But they didn't do anything spectacular.  They didn't have to.  They had a nice destination, money, and a team president with a good reputation.  Ultimately, this version of the Heat was created because LeBron, Wade, and Bosh decided to play together in Miami.  That's it.

If drafting Beasley as the second option behind Wade so that the team stayed relevant and sold tickets while waiting for LeBron to come to town, how is that bad management?

It was bad management because he became a bust and they ended up giving him away for nothing only a couple years after drafting him . . . . what would you call that?
Well you disregarded everything I said, but I'd call it genius considering where they are now.

Drafting a guy #2 overall and then giving him away for nothing after two years is bad management.  If the plan was to draft him just to keep the team 'relevant' and sell tickets for a couple years, that was bad management.  They could have done a lot more with that #2 pick.  If they were really planning on losing him after a couple years, they could have traded down and taken a player that would have made less money (so they could keep him).  Or they could have developed him better and then traded him for future picks so more talent would be coming after the Big 3 signed.

There are any number of the things the Heat could have done that would have been much smarter and better than simply giving Beasley away to free up space.  There's no way that their original plan was to draft him as a two year rental -- and if it was, that was idiocy.

Again, the bar is being set really low here for the Heat organization.  It's really not that hard to set your team up to have tons of cap space.
Never forget the Champs of '08, or the gutsy warriors of '10.

"I know you all wanna win, but you gotta do it TOGETHER!"
- Doc Rivers

Re: Is this collusion?
« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2011, 12:20:50 AM »

Offline mgent

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Quote
Players getting together and deciding that they are going to play together -- especially if they decide they will play on a specific team -- prior to free agency and negotiations with team officials is a problem because it undermines the ability of GMs to build winning teams. 

I disagree with this - why would it undermine the ability of GMs to build winning teams? Make your team a free agent destination and this won't be a problem.

Here's the problem -- not every team in the league has the option of making themselves a free agent destination.  If you're not a big market, you have to get really lucky in draft and get a major superstar to attract other free agents.  Under current rules, you might still lose that major superstar you got in the draft because they'll bolt for nothing or coerce you into trading them for a jumble of prospects (i.e. 5 nickels for a quarter).

Quote
I want an NBA where great teams are built from the ground up by smart GMs and well-run organizations that are good at scouting, acquiring, and developing talent.  I don't want an NBA where great teams are created when (as Rick Reilly puts it) the best kids on the playground decide to get together and beat up everybody else.

I would argue, as others have on this thread, Riley did the very thing that you're talking about. Who drafted Mario Chalmers? Who traded Michael Beasley? Who developed Udonis Haslem? Are you against free agency in general? Nevertheless, what the Heat trio did was not entirely unprecedented. Stars have tried to pull this stuff for years.

Credit to the Heat for drafting and developing Chalmers and Haslem.  Those were good moves.  However, those are just role players.  The Heat aren't a great organization just because they developed two solid role players.  Am I supposed to give them credit for drafting Michael Beasley (sort of a bust for #2 overall), not developing him well, and then trading him for nothing to make cap space because they knew they'd be signing free agents come 2010?  I wouldn't call that good management.

Quote
If a team wants to amass 3 superstars the way the Heat did, they should be prepared to trade away assets they've put together and developed over a long period of time (like the Celtics did).

This is exactly what the Heat did. You may not like the end result, but hey, other teams weren't smart enough.

Um, how were other teams not smart enough?  Many other teams did exactly the same thing.  Many other teams had cap space and money to throw at free agents.  Wade, James, and Bosh just picked Miami.  Was that partly because Pat Riley has a winning resume and made a good pitch?  Sure.  But was it also partly because Miami is inherently a nice place to play.  Absolutely.

The greatness of the Heat has something to do with their management.  I will admit that.  A badly managed team could not have pulled off what they did.  But they didn't do anything spectacular.  They didn't have to.  They had a nice destination, money, and a team president with a good reputation.  Ultimately, this version of the Heat was created because LeBron, Wade, and Bosh decided to play together in Miami.  That's it.

If drafting Beasley as the second option behind Wade so that the team stayed relevant and sold tickets while waiting for LeBron to come to town, how is that bad management?

It was bad management because he became a bust and they ended up giving him away for nothing only a couple years after drafting him . . . . what would you call that?
Well you disregarded everything I said, but I'd call it genius considering where they are now.

Drafting a guy #2 overall and then giving him away for nothing after two years is bad management.  If the plan was to draft him just to keep the team 'relevant' and sell tickets for a couple years, that was bad management.  They could have done a lot more with that #2 pick.  If they were really planning on losing him after a couple years, they could have traded down and taken a player that would have made less money (so they could keep him).  Or they could have developed him better and then traded him for future picks so more talent would be coming after the Big 3 signed.

There are any number of the things the Heat could have done that would have been much smarter and better than simply giving Beasley away to free up space.  There's no way that their original plan was to draft him as a two year rental -- and if it was, that was idiocy.

Again, the bar is being set really low here for the Heat organization.  It's really not that hard to set your team up to have tons of cap space.
I never said I thought they should have given him up for nothing.  I think they would've been smarter to keep him even if it meant no Haslem.  It gave them the potential to have 4 all stars instead of just 3. 
Philly:

Anderson Varejao    Tiago Splitter    Matt Bonner
David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale