Rondo is a poor mans Dennis Rodman

[Moranis]

Not clearly many have done it.  You keep pointing to Kidd, but he entered the league in the upper 60's from the line, jumped up to near 80% in year four and then just went up and down in that general range.  His fourth best 3PT% was his third year.  Clearly Kidd's problems were not from form as he had proper shooting form.  I suspect he just didn't put his full effort into shooting until later in his career.

The reality is most players do not all of a sudden develop form and technique.  Rondo was a poor shooter at Kentucky, which is one of the reasons he fell to the 20's.  He has been a poor shooter in the pros.  Take Shaq who despite shooting thousands and thousands of foul shots, despite hiring a special coach to work on it, and despite genuinuely wanting to improve his foul shooting, never could.

There is absolutely no evidence that says Rondo will ever get noticeably better, and history is not on his side.

  The fact that Kidd and Rondo aren't 100% identical doesn't mean that what I'm talking about doesn't happen. And 1-2 decent outside shooting years out of 10 are a statistical blip.

a statistical blip that shows he could do it if he put in the effort.  His foul shooting is clearly representative of this. 

Kidd's age of his 5 best 3PT shooting seasons in order of best

36
35
34
23
25

[Silent Storm]

How about Dirk Nowitzki? He couldn't shoot worth a lick when he first entered the league and it almost cost him his career. Now he's considered one of the best shooters ever.

[Eddie20]

How about Dirk Nowitzki? He couldn't shoot worth a lick when he first entered the league and it almost cost him his career. Now he's considered one of the best shooters ever.

Whoa, that's not true. He was always billed as a shooter, which is what made him so unique for someone his height. I think you're mistaking his rookie season, when he was adjusting to both life in the NBA and to a foreign country, with that statement.

[BballTim]

Not clearly many have done it.  You keep pointing to Kidd, but he entered the league in the upper 60's from the line, jumped up to near 80% in year four and then just went up and down in that general range.  His fourth best 3PT% was his third year.  Clearly Kidd's problems were not from form as he had proper shooting form.  I suspect he just didn't put his full effort into shooting until later in his career.

The reality is most players do not all of a sudden develop form and technique.  Rondo was a poor shooter at Kentucky, which is one of the reasons he fell to the 20's.  He has been a poor shooter in the pros.  Take Shaq who despite shooting thousands and thousands of foul shots, despite hiring a special coach to work on it, and despite genuinuely wanting to improve his foul shooting, never could.

There is absolutely no evidence that says Rondo will ever get noticeably better, and history is not on his side.

  The fact that Kidd and Rondo aren't 100% identical doesn't mean that what I'm talking about doesn't happen. And 1-2 decent outside shooting years out of 10 are a statistical blip.

a statistical blip that shows he could do it if he put in the effort.  His foul shooting is clearly representative of this. 

Kidd's age of his 5 best 3PT shooting seasons in order of best

36
35
34
23
25

  Ok. Clearly the 8 year gap in the middle means nothing to you.

  OTOH, go to hoopdata and check out the average fg% for point guards by shot locations. Then check out Rondo's percentages. For each of the locations inside the three point line Rondo's career average is higher than that of the average pg and he's been *above* average in each distance 3 of his 5 years in the league. This is the guys you're saying has little hope of being a decent shooter, while the guy who was below average in 8 of his first 10 years is the guy who clearly showed that he was capable of improving. I don't see how that works.

[JoT]

How about Dirk Nowitzki? He couldn't shoot worth a lick when he first entered the league and it almost cost him his career. Now he's considered one of the best shooters ever.

Dirk improved before his 5th year. While I'm on the fence on the Rondo topic supporting Rondo, those two are completely different players. Dirk in his 5th year was also a better freethrow shooter shooting around 88% Rondo didn't even hit 60% this year. He's in fact regressed a bit.

[Silent Storm]

Rodman was a specialist when it came to rebounding and getting under the opposing team's skin. In some respects I think Rondo is a specialist too and he's clearly a very unique player. Having watched Rondo practice for hours I can say that he makes the majority of jumpshots and free throws that he takes during practice. However during the game he becomes reluctant for some reason, and I think it has something to do with keeping his teammates involved. Rondo has become unselfish to the point where he will pass up open shots and defer to his teammates who may have a lower percentage shot. That results in him taking low percentage shots in situations such as an expiring shot clock or game clock. This season I feel like Rondo took a lot of his shots when the offense was stagnant and not much was going on. As a result it puts his offensive game in a bad light but I think he's too smart and too talented to not be able to figure it out eventually.

[TitleMaster]

Here's the thing... Rodman consciously decided not to be a scorer.

At the same time, he'd kept the game going when he got his offensive or defensive rebounds but wasn't a great passer, during those opportunities to be one. All and all, Rodman was a star because Phil Jackson didn't need more from a power forward, unlike back in Horace Grant's time when he needed more from both the 4 & the 5 spots, to keep the Bulls in the running.

If Rondo was a PF, instead of a guard, he'd be more like our Paul Silas, a tenacious rebounder, who made good passes, locked down other team's elite players (w/o Rodman tricks like wrestling w/ Karl Malone), and still managed 10-12 pts in 25-30 mins.

[Overrated]

Actually, Larry Sanders (Milwaukee Bucks) is a poor man's Dennis Rodman. There's an incredible likeness.

[Silent Storm]

I think Larry forgot the holsters for those pistols.

[paulcowens]

I liked seeing Rondo post up in the Knicks series and the first game of the Heat series.  I could see him doing that more, especially if he develops a hook shot, which I think might come naturally to him, much as scoop shots do, with his wingspan and big hands.

[Carhole]

Not clearly many have done it.  You keep pointing to Kidd, but he entered the league in the upper 60's from the line, jumped up to near 80% in year four and then just went up and down in that general range.  His fourth best 3PT% was his third year.  Clearly Kidd's problems were not from form as he had proper shooting form.  I suspect he just didn't put his full effort into shooting until later in his career.

The reality is most players do not all of a sudden develop form and technique.  Rondo was a poor shooter at Kentucky, which is one of the reasons he fell to the 20's.  He has been a poor shooter in the pros.  Take Shaq who despite shooting thousands and thousands of foul shots, despite hiring a special coach to work on it, and despite genuinuely wanting to improve his foul shooting, never could.

There is absolutely no evidence that says Rondo will ever get noticeably better, and history is not on his side.

  The fact that Kidd and Rondo aren't 100% identical doesn't mean that what I'm talking about doesn't happen. And 1-2 decent outside shooting years out of 10 are a statistical blip.

a statistical blip that shows he could do it if he put in the effort.  His foul shooting is clearly representative of this. 

Kidd's age of his 5 best 3PT shooting seasons in order of best

36
35
34
23
25

  Ok. Clearly the 8 year gap in the middle means nothing to you.

  OTOH, go to hoopdata and check out the average fg% for point guards by shot locations. Then check out Rondo's percentages. For each of the locations inside the three point line Rondo's career average is higher than that of the average pg and he's been *above* average in each distance 3 of his 5 years in the league. This is the guys you're saying has little hope of being a decent shooter, while the guy who was below average in 8 of his first 10 years is the guy who clearly showed that he was capable of improving. I don't see how that works.

The thing about those stats are, there is no way to show that rondo shoots most of those shots WIDE open. No one ever blatantly left Kidd open from 15 feet, literally not being within 3 feet of him and not even caring to challenge the shot.

It will be a miracle if rondo was to become an 80% free throw shooter

[Carhole]

Obviously they play different positions, but they are essentially the same type of player i.e. excellent defender and excellent rebounder (Rodman) or passer (Rondo).  Both are efficient when they shoot (which is rarely), but generally awful offensively as a whole.  Neither can shoot foul shots.  Both have attitude issues, but both work incredibly hard at their craft.

Rodman ended up in the HOF but no one would have ever came close to calling him a franchise player.  Rondo has a ton of value, but he isn't a franchise player (and never will be) because of the glaring weakness in his game, just like Rodman.  

I dont buy that Rondo works hard at his craft because

I don't see why he can't develop a jumper over time. Anyone can become a decent shooter with enough dedication and practice, Jason Kidd did it.

  Jason Kidd became an average to above average three point shooter in his *30s*.

and this is absolutely wrong

I'm not getting the comparison - Rondo CAN score (not shoot, but score); Rodman couldn't.  Many scorers in the league aren't pure shooters.  Rodman was one of the top 5 role players of all time.  Rondo has arguably been MVP of his team for the last 3 years imo (and he's still very young)

For his career - Rondo has averaged 10 ppg, with a career high of 14 ppg in 09-10

His playoff averages are even better at 14 ppg...

Rodman's career ppg is 7.3 (and I bet a ton of those points are offensive rebounds) - career high 11.6 ppg his second year and his playoff scoring average actually goes down to 6.4 ppg

different class of scorers - Rondo can score but also sets up the offense - Rodman couldn't score period

KG has been the MVP not Rondo.
The comparison is good except Rodman is Rondos ceiling lol.

  Opinions vary. Rondo's had the highest PER of the big four over the last 3 years. KG's averages over that time are 15 points, 8 rebounds and 3 assists. Rondo's are 16 points, 7 rebounds and 10 assists.

The mean of the last 3 seasons per...rr 18.39 - PP 18.58

[BballTim]

Not clearly many have done it.  You keep pointing to Kidd, but he entered the league in the upper 60's from the line, jumped up to near 80% in year four and then just went up and down in that general range.  His fourth best 3PT% was his third year.  Clearly Kidd's problems were not from form as he had proper shooting form.  I suspect he just didn't put his full effort into shooting until later in his career.

The reality is most players do not all of a sudden develop form and technique.  Rondo was a poor shooter at Kentucky, which is one of the reasons he fell to the 20's.  He has been a poor shooter in the pros.  Take Shaq who despite shooting thousands and thousands of foul shots, despite hiring a special coach to work on it, and despite genuinuely wanting to improve his foul shooting, never could.

There is absolutely no evidence that says Rondo will ever get noticeably better, and history is not on his side.

  The fact that Kidd and Rondo aren't 100% identical doesn't mean that what I'm talking about doesn't happen. And 1-2 decent outside shooting years out of 10 are a statistical blip.

a statistical blip that shows he could do it if he put in the effort.  His foul shooting is clearly representative of this. 

Kidd's age of his 5 best 3PT shooting seasons in order of best

36
35
34
23
25

  Ok. Clearly the 8 year gap in the middle means nothing to you.

  OTOH, go to hoopdata and check out the average fg% for point guards by shot locations. Then check out Rondo's percentages. For each of the locations inside the three point line Rondo's career average is higher than that of the average pg and he's been *above* average in each distance 3 of his 5 years in the league. This is the guys you're saying has little hope of being a decent shooter, while the guy who was below average in 8 of his first 10 years is the guy who clearly showed that he was capable of improving. I don't see how that works.

The thing about those stats are, there is no way to show that rondo shoots most of those shots WIDE open. No one ever blatantly left Kidd open from 15 feet, literally not being within 3 feet of him and not even caring to challenge the shot.

It will be a miracle if rondo was to become an 80% free throw shooter

  It never ceases to amaze me that people think that Rondo's the only person in the nba, or possibly in the history of the nba, that teams left alone on the perimeter. Plenty of players take WIDE open shots. KG, Delonte, Green, Krstic when he's outside, BBD, they all frequently take WIDE open shots from the outside. Trust me, people weren't hanging all over Kidd like he was Kobe.

  Kind of an aside, but I was watching one of the games and Van Gundy was talking about how the Heat defense wasn't paying any attention to Rondo at all. The Heat get the ball, the Celts are on defense, and Rondo's hovering around between LeBron and Wade to help on whoever had the ball. Bibby was standing out by the three point line on the other side of the court wide open. Not a word from Van Gundy, and I kind of wondered how many people here would see what was going on. My guess is not many.

  By the way, I agree with you that Rondo probably won't become an 80% foul shooter, but mid-70s seems attainable and that would be enough to make him an effective player when he went to the line.

[BballTim]

Obviously they play different positions, but they are essentially the same type of player i.e. excellent defender and excellent rebounder (Rodman) or passer (Rondo).  Both are efficient when they shoot (which is rarely), but generally awful offensively as a whole.  Neither can shoot foul shots.  Both have attitude issues, but both work incredibly hard at their craft.

Rodman ended up in the HOF but no one would have ever came close to calling him a franchise player.  Rondo has a ton of value, but he isn't a franchise player (and never will be) because of the glaring weakness in his game, just like Rodman.  

I dont buy that Rondo works hard at his craft because

I don't see why he can't develop a jumper over time. Anyone can become a decent shooter with enough dedication and practice, Jason Kidd did it.

  Jason Kidd became an average to above average three point shooter in his *30s*.

and this is absolutely wrong

I'm not getting the comparison - Rondo CAN score (not shoot, but score); Rodman couldn't.  Many scorers in the league aren't pure shooters.  Rodman was one of the top 5 role players of all time.  Rondo has arguably been MVP of his team for the last 3 years imo (and he's still very young)

For his career - Rondo has averaged 10 ppg, with a career high of 14 ppg in 09-10

His playoff averages are even better at 14 ppg...

Rodman's career ppg is 7.3 (and I bet a ton of those points are offensive rebounds) - career high 11.6 ppg his second year and his playoff scoring average actually goes down to 6.4 ppg

different class of scorers - Rondo can score but also sets up the offense - Rodman couldn't score period

KG has been the MVP not Rondo.
The comparison is good except Rodman is Rondos ceiling lol.

  Opinions vary. Rondo's had the highest PER of the big four over the last 3 years. KG's averages over that time are 15 points, 8 rebounds and 3 assists. Rondo's are 16 points, 7 rebounds and 10 assists.

The mean of the last 3 seasons per...rr 18.39 - PP 18.58

  Seriously? You're treating each postseason as a single unit no matter how many games were played in an attempt to try and give PP a razor-thin edge?

[nickagneta]

Let's get some facts straight.

- Rodman barely ever shot and most of his shots were put backs on offensive rebounds. Rondo shoots 10 times a game on a team with three Hall of Famers who he sets up to shoot 15 times a game. He doesn't bare ever shoot.

- Rodman was a basket case and was getting thrown out of games and T'ed up constantly. His attitude and persona was a detriment to his team. Rondo is a warrior who's stubborn attitude and desire to win is an asset to his team. Trying to compare Rondo's attitude to Rodman's is like trying to compare a gourmet dinner to beef jerky. Rondo does not have an attitude problem.

- Rodman was a God awful offensive player other than offensive rebounding. Rondo runs the offense, one of the most efficient offenses in the league, and is one of the best finishers around the basket in the league and there might not be a better open court, fast break PG in the league. He is not awful offensively he just isn't the best outside shooter.

- Rodman worked hard at getting his name in the paper and being a distraction to his team. He was a great pure rebounder, defender and athletic freak who worked at keeping in shape. He NEVER worked on his game. Rondo has worked on his game spending one season restructuring his shot with Mark Price and is said to constantly be on a court in the off season working on his game.


The misrepresentations of Rondo is this thread are shocking given what he has done for this team in the short time he has been here.

Let me ask you something, if Rondo was a PF, would he ever be a part of the offense other then put backs or fast breaks?

If hippos could fly would they fly faster than an eagle?

Who knows because hippos don't fly, so this isn't really the best way to retort what are clearly points you don't want to discuss because you misrepresented the facts in your original comparison of the players.

Rondo does not barely shoot. He shoots nearly double the amount of times that Rodman did for his career(nearly 5 shots more per game) while shooting only 4-5 times less per game than one of his Hall of Fame team mates.

Rondo has a great attitude and is not a bad attitude, problem child like Rodman was.

Rondo is a fantastic offensive player who's flaw is he isn't a great outside shooter. Rodman had zero offensive game and didn't even try on that end of the court.

Rondo is constantly working on his game. He spent an entire summer working on his shooting form with Mark Price.

How about discussing these misrepresentations before starting a what if the impossible were possible game?