How Tony Allen cost Grizzlies Game2?

[Fafnir]

Okay I get it, you don't care about the overall conversation about Tony fine by me. But that was the perspective I was bringing to this thread and plenty relevant in my view. If it weren't for the overall conversation with Tony I don't think this video gets posted.

http://www.myfoxmemphis.com/dpp/news/local/memphis-grizzlies-fans-catch-tony-allen-fever-rpt-20110331

I don't think local fans buying t-shirts and/or latching on to a role player is a good way to evaluate said role player's play.

I mean how many people had irrational Bill Walker love?

I also have to ask, is "changing the culture" the new storyline/catch phrase for just being a good defender? We've heard it with Tony/Perkins now that both are with new teams, its as if all the the 2007-2008 glowing profiles rubbed off on them and are now echoing.

[Jon Niednagel]

Okay I get it, you don't care about the overall conversation about Tony fine by me. But that was the perspective I was bringing to this thread and plenty relevant in my view. If it weren't for the overall conversation with Tony I don't think this video gets posted.

http://www.myfoxmemphis.com/dpp/news/local/memphis-grizzlies-fans-catch-tony-allen-fever-rpt-20110331

I don't think local fans buying t-shirts and/or latching on to a role player is a good way to evaluate said role player's play.

I mean how many people had irrational Bill Walker love?

I also have to ask, is "changing the culture" the new storyline/catch phrase for just being a good defender? We've heard it with Tony/Perkins now that both are with new teams, its as if all the the 2007-2008 glowing profiles rubbed off on them and are now echoing.

First, Tony is considered a leader on the team, not a role player. That may have been what he was brought in to be, but you are obviously viewing him through historical lenses (either through a begrudging dislike of the guy or because you haven't really been following Memphis closely). 

Second, comparing Tony's role on the Grizz to Bill Walker's role on the Cs is, well, a worse reach than blaming the game 2 loss on Tony.

Third, your intent was perfectly clear in your first response to my post. It just had nothing to do with what I was talking about. If I had said something to the effect that there was no justification for the post, then bringing up the things you did would have relevance. Defending the OP's take on the game by arguing others have done the reverse in the past just changes the topic. It has nothing to do with whether Tony actually cost the Grizz this game.

Lastly, TP for your persistence.

[mgent]

So Battier goes 1-7, Gasol goes 2-9, Mayo goes 2-11, and Tony who went 7-13, lost the game?  In your dreams buddy.

Tony had a decent, less than ideal game which he will more than make up for with all the games in which he goes off.  Did you so soon forget that it was TA who won game 1 late in the 4th quarter?

[Jon Niednagel]

I also have to ask, is "changing the culture" the new storyline/catch phrase for just being a good defender? We've heard it with Tony/Perkins now that both are with new teams, its as if all the the 2007-2008 glowing profiles rubbed off on them and are now echoing.

Well, KG influenced the "culture" here by infecting his defensive focus and unselfish play to the rest of the team. If Tony did the same for Memphis, then I think it is a fair thing to say.

[Fafnir]

First, Tony is considered a leader on the team, not a role player.

Tony Allen is a role player on the team based on his play, whether or not he's a locker room leader I can't judge. I mean Posey was a leader and a role player right?

That may have been what he was brought in to be, but you are obviously viewing him through historical lenses (either through a begrudging dislike of the guy or because you haven't really been following Memphis closely).  

I'm not sure why disagreeing with you implies bias and/or ignorance. People have different opinions.

[Fafnir]

I also have to ask, is "changing the culture" the new storyline/catch phrase for just being a good defender? We've heard it with Tony/Perkins now that both are with new teams, its as if all the the 2007-2008 glowing profiles rubbed off on them and are now echoing.

Well, KG influenced the "culture" here by infecting his defensive focus and unselfish play to the rest of the team. If Tony did the same for Memphis, then I think it is a fair thing to say.

Perhaps.

I think its just the convient storyline that is getting attached to defensive players, its especially easy copy if the player came from the Celtics. I just hate the whole "culture" change aspect that people play up with KG and others. It takes the focus away from their play on the court.

[Fafnir]

So Battier goes 1-7, Gasol goes 2-9, Mayo goes 2-11, and Tony who went 7-13, lost the game?  In your dreams buddy.

Tony had a decent, less than ideal game which he will more than make up for with all the games in which he goes off.  Did you so soon forget that it was TA who won game 1 late in the 4th quarter?

The Grizzlies offense was brutal overall. TA's offensive rating of 91 is tied with Z-Bo for fourth on the team.

Though you unfairly point to Gasol as having a worse offensive day. He was 2-9 but got to the line 11 times and made 8 of them, and only had one turnover. So he was just as efficent as TA.

[mgent]

Put me in the camp that thinks it was Tony Allen who turned around the Grizzlies, not the benching of Mayo.  He's their leader, defensively and vocally.  And he's doing it without Rudy Gay, and with his lame jump shot instead of OJ Mayo's spacing.  Him and Battier make them very tough which they need with their soft front-court.  I don't see how simply sitting Mayo turns them into a playoff team (what if they started Henry and brought Mayo off the bench?).

[mgent]

So Battier goes 1-7, Gasol goes 2-9, Mayo goes 2-11, and Tony who went 7-13, lost the game?  In your dreams buddy.

Tony had a decent, less than ideal game which he will more than make up for with all the games in which he goes off.  Did you so soon forget that it was TA who won game 1 late in the 4th quarter?

The Grizzlies offense was brutal overall. TA's offensive rating of 91 is tied with Z-Bo for fourth on the team.

Though you unfairly point to Gasol as having a worse offensive day. He was 2-9 but got to the line 11 times and made 8 of them, and only had one turnover. So he was just as efficent as TA.

Oh wow, you're right I somehow didn't see that.  I wish I watched the game but I don't have NBA TV, so I guess I shouldn't really be commenting on this game.

[Fafnir]

So Battier goes 1-7, Gasol goes 2-9, Mayo goes 2-11, and Tony who went 7-13, lost the game?  In your dreams buddy.

Tony had a decent, less than ideal game which he will more than make up for with all the games in which he goes off.  Did you so soon forget that it was TA who won game 1 late in the 4th quarter?

The Grizzlies offense was brutal overall. TA's offensive rating of 91 is tied with Z-Bo for fourth on the team.

Though you unfairly point to Gasol as having a worse offensive day. He was 2-9 but got to the line 11 times and made 8 of them, and only had one turnover. So he was just as efficent as TA.

Oh wow, you're right I somehow didn't see that.  I wish I watched the game but I don't have NBA TV, so I guess I shouldn't really be commenting on this game.

It was a very good game. The Spurs were packing the paint and very physical Memphis really needed someone to make them pay for it but they don't have the shooters. (Battier/Mayo just kept throwing up bricks)

I love having digital cable, my GF couldn't understand why the Spurs wer not on the bigger network!

[Jon Niednagel]

First, Tony is considered a leader on the team, not a role player.

Tony Allen is a role player on the team based on his play, whether or not he's a locker room leader I can't judge. I mean Posey was a leader and a role player right?

That may have been what he was brought in to be, but you are obviously viewing him through historical lenses (either through a begrudging dislike of the guy or because you haven't really been following Memphis closely).  

I'm not sure why disagreeing with you implies bias and/or ignorance. People have different opinions.

Posey came off the bench. He was important to the team, but he served one role on the court (play defense and be ready to hit the corner three if you have an open shot). There were clearly 5 more important players than him on that 2008 team, and perhaps more. I don't think the same can be said for Tony's role on the Grizz.

Tony's role for Memphis, and relative importance, is arguably much greater than Ray Allen's for Boston. Is Ray Allen a role player? I guess that could be argued. I suppose it is all in the definition of what you consider a role player.

Also, you are correct that people can have their own opinions. I apologize for jumping to conclusions and for the way that came out. I do hold you in high regard and have enjoyed reading your informed perspectives on various topics through the years. I do, however, find your reluctance to accept Tony as being an important cog in the Memphis wheel a bit curious, but to each their own.

[mgent]

First, Tony is considered a leader on the team, not a role player.

Tony Allen is a role player on the team based on his play, whether or not he's a locker room leader I can't judge. I mean Posey was a leader and a role player right?

That may have been what he was brought in to be, but you are obviously viewing him through historical lenses (either through a begrudging dislike of the guy or because you haven't really been following Memphis closely).  

I'm not sure why disagreeing with you implies bias and/or ignorance. People have different opinions.

Posey came off the bench. He was important to the team, but he served one role on the court (play defense and be ready to hit the corner three if you have an open shot). There were clearly 5 more important players than him on that 2008 team, and perhaps more. I don't think the same can be said for Tony's role on the Grizz.

Tony's role for Memphis, and relative importance, is arguably much greater than Ray Allen's for Boston. Is Ray Allen a role player? I guess that could be argued. I suppose it is all in the definition of what you consider a role player.

Also, you are correct that people can have their own opinions. I apologize for jumping to conclusions and for the way that came out. I do hold you in high regard and have enjoyed reading your informed perspectives on various topics through the years. I do, however, find your reluctance to accept Tony as being an important cog in the Memphis wheel a bit curious, but to each their own.

I agree with you about Posey although I'm not entirely sure if Tony's role is as great as Ray's (perhaps just different).  It's all subjective really when you're talking about roles.  Tony is definitely one of the Grizzlies' most important players, behind Randolph, possibly on level with Gasol (or at least no less inconsistent).  Even if you consider him 4th with a healthy Gay, then maybe the comparison with Ray works since most people would consider him our 4th most important player.

[Fafnir]

First, Tony is considered a leader on the team, not a role player.

Tony Allen is a role player on the team based on his play, whether or not he's a locker room leader I can't judge. I mean Posey was a leader and a role player right?

That may have been what he was brought in to be, but you are obviously viewing him through historical lenses (either through a begrudging dislike of the guy or because you haven't really been following Memphis closely).  

I'm not sure why disagreeing with you implies bias and/or ignorance. People have different opinions.

Posey came off the bench. He was important to the team, but he served one role on the court (play defense and be ready to hit the corner three if you have an open shot). There were clearly 5 more important players than him on that 2008 team, and perhaps more. I don't think the same can be said for Tony's role on the Grizz.

Tony's role for Memphis, and relative importance, is arguably much greater than Ray Allen's for Boston. Is Ray Allen a role player? I guess that could be argued. I suppose it is all in the definition of what you consider a role player.

Also, you are correct that people can have their own opinions. I apologize for jumping to conclusions and for the way that came out. I do hold you in high regard and have enjoyed reading your informed perspectives on various topics through the years. I do, however, find your reluctance to accept Tony as being an important cog in the Memphis wheel a bit curious, but to each their own.

He plays close to Posey's minutes than Ray Allens. He shoots the ball more than Posey, but overall he's not nearly as featured in the offensive play book as Ray Allen is. He also is their defensive stopper, so I draw the similarity there as well.

I view Tony as probably th 5th guy on that team: Conley, Gasol, Randolph, Gay are all better players and more important. Now that Gay has been hurt he's moved up since Battier is a few notches below him at this point.

So yes he's around a James Posey/Kendrick Perkins level (I think both were tied for 5th in importance for the title team). I view that as being a role player.

Don't worry about the jumping to conclusions bit, we all do it when we have a strong opinion. I guess I just don't think Tony deserves credit for changing the team. As I've outlined above I think he's along the lines of Posey in 07-08 or Perkins an elite role player as a defensive wing.