A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)

[Evantime34]

Tonight was some  devilish ish....tuff to watch....

It made me so mad. It's not like Sansa hasn't gone through enough.

If it had happened like that in the book I wouldn't have been as mad, but it wasn't. That they essentially rewrote the story so that Sansa left the Vale in order to get raped (and probably tortured in the future) was disgusting. How does that further the story along? Ramsey was already hated, so it's not like they added this in to make him a villian.

I've read all the books, but if him torturing Sansa becomes as big a storyline in the show as Ramsey torturing Theon, I will turn it off and not watch again.

[PhoSita]

I thought the show handled the wedding night scene for Sansa rather well, actually.  No more explicit and triggering than it had to be, though I suppose there's an argument for actually showing the pain on her face rather than focusing on how viewing it affected Theon / Reek.

Putting Sansa in Winterfell seems to be important for where the plot is going.  I trust the show runners on that one.

Given that, Sansa had to be in an arranged marriage with a guy we know to be a brutal sadist.  Even if he weren't a brutal sadist, it's still an arranged marriage in which the woman has virtually no say.  So, a rape on the wedding night is basically a foregone conclusion.  That's the reality in the GoT universe, and it was the reality for thousands of years in our world (still is the reality in some places).  Arranged marriages very often lead to marital rape. 

Would it have been better for GoT to not show it to us?  Or should the show have conveniently steered Sansa away from such an eventuality, despite the fact that she is still being used as a political pawn? I mean, they could have done something to stop it, like have Theon break out of Reek-mode and kill Ramsay before he begins, or they could have had Sansa go all Buffy out of nowhere and defend herself.   

They could have used any number of Deus Ex Machinas to get her out of that situation.  But that would have been a much worse sin, in my opinion, than reminding the viewers once again that this is a dark, medieval world where women largely get treated, violently, as property.

[Evantime34]

I thought the show handled the wedding night scene for Sansa rather well, actually.  No more explicit and triggering than it had to be, though I suppose there's an argument for actually showing the pain on her face rather than focusing on how viewing it affected Theon / Reek.

Putting Sansa in Winterfell seems to be important for where the plot is going.  I trust the show runners on that one.

Given that, Sansa had to be in an arranged marriage with a guy we know to be a brutal sadist.  Even if he weren't a brutal sadist, it's still an arranged marriage in which the woman has virtually no say.  So, a rape on the wedding night is basically a foregone conclusion.  That's the reality in the GoT universe, and it was the reality for thousands of years in our world (still is the reality in some places).  Arranged marriages very often lead to marital rape. 

Would it have been better for GoT to not show it to us?  Or should the show have conveniently steered Sansa away from such an eventuality, despite the fact that she is still being used as a political pawn? I mean, they could have done something to stop it, like have Theon break out of Reek-mode and kill Ramsay before he begins, or they could have had Sansa go all Buffy out of nowhere and defend herself.   

They could have used any number of Deus Ex Machinas to get her out of that situation.  But that would have been a much worse sin, in my opinion, than reminding the viewers once again that this is a dark, medieval world where women largely get treated, violently, as property.

The rape itself, doesn't bother me as much as the thought that Ramsey will treat Sansa like he treated Jayne Poole in the books. The rape leads me to believe this will be the case. If that happens I don't think I will be able to watch.

Why couldn't they have just left her in the Vale like they did in the book?

[LarBrd33]

Tonight was some  devilish ish....tuff to watch....

I feel like I'm watching a different television show from everyone else.  Maybe Sansa's character is more sympathetic in the books... and the stuff Joffrey put her through in the early seasons was truly horrifying.   But at this point, the show seems to go to great lengths to present Sansa as though she has options.  It's seems like once a week someone offers her a lifeline that she refuses.  Whether it's the Hound, or Brienne, some rando at Kings landing, etc.  Even Littlefinger sort of presents the Bolton marriage as a choice.   At some point, it's hard to say she isn't in that situation partially because she wants to be. 

In a way, she seems to have a lot in common with Cersei and Maergery.  All of them grew up with grand illusions of living in a pretty castle as the wife of some prince/king.  No matter how deplorable their situations get, they never sway from that goal.   Whereas that scene was probably supposed to mirror Dany's wedding night, it's not really the same.  Dany was completely powerless and forced into that against her will.   Sansa has a big part in making the bed. 

I know I can't be the only person who feels this way.  A friend of mine commented that Sansa is such a passive bystander to her family's downfall that Arya might as well add Sansa's name to her kill list. 

I'm sure it wasn't pleasant, but Sansa is playing the game of thrones. Women in this show use their sexuality to play the game.  It's partially her choice she's in Winterfell. On some level she knew what she was getting herself into.

Doesn't change the fact that at some point I hope Sansa grows a spine and takes out Ramsay in his sleep.

[LarBrd33]

Given that, Sansa had to be in an arranged marriage with a guy we know to be a brutal sadist.  Even if he weren't a brutal sadist, it's still an arranged marriage in which the woman has virtually no say.  So, a rape on the wedding night is basically a foregone conclusion.  That's the reality in the GoT universe, and it was the reality for thousands of years in our world (still is the reality in some places).  Arranged marriages very often lead to marital rape. 

Sansa knew what a wedding night typically entailed.  The show really doesn't seem to be presenting it as though she is helpless.  She has her own agenda here.  It's the same agenda that kept her in Kingslanding way longer than she needed to stay there.

I understand how some folks will look at that scene through the lens of our modern society.  People freaked out over the Jamie/Cersei "rape" scene as well... even though it was presented as though Cersei was just testing Jamie's manhood after he lost a hand... and it basically seemed consensual. 

People will freak out about this scene as well, but in that world post-marriage sex is a certainty.  Sansa knew what to expect there.  Sure, she still doesn't understand the full scope of Bolton's insanity... and probably wasn't expected Reek to watch... but she knew what to expect there... and she seems to (at least partially) be in that situation by choice.

[Evantime34]

Tonight was some  devilish ish....tuff to watch....

I feel like I'm watching a different television show from everyone else.  Maybe Sansa's character is more sympathetic in the books... and the stuff Joffrey put her through in the early seasons was truly horrifying.   But at this point, the show seems to go to great lengths to present Sansa as though she has options.  It's seems like once a week someone offers her a lifeline that she refuses.  Whether it's the Hound, or Brienne, some rando at Kings landing, etc.  Even Littlefinger sort of presents the Bolton marriage as a choice.   At some point, it's hard to say she isn't in that situation partially because she wants to be. 

In a way, she seems to have a lot in common with Cersei and Maergery.  All of them grew up with grand illusions of living in a pretty castle as the wife of some prince/king.  No matter how deplorable their situations get, they never sway from that goal.   Whereas that scene was probably supposed to mirror Dany's wedding night, it's not really the same.  Dany was completely powerless and forced into that against her will.   Sansa has a big part in making the bed. 

I know I can't be the only person who feels this way.  A friend of mine commented that Sansa is such a passive bystander to her family's downfall that Arya might as well add Sansa's name to her kill list. 

I'm sure it wasn't pleasant, but Sansa is playing the game of thrones. Women in this show use their sexuality to play the game.  It's partially her choice she's in Winterfell. On some level she knew what she was getting herself into.

Doesn't change the fact that at some point I hope Sansa grows a spine and takes out Ramsay in his sleep.

This is interesting, I hadn't thought of it like that.

I guess why she is such a sympathetic character is it seems like she has no control over anything and doesn't have the ability to change things.

Where Cersei and Margery seem conniving and power hungry, all Sansa ever wants is to go back home and live the way she used to. I guess to me she becomes more sympathetic because she seems helpless.

I think she went back to Winterfell to marry Ramsey because all she wants is to go home and have things the way the were. Is she kind of naive and stupid?  Yes, but I feel that people like that need the most protection which is why it is all the more sad that everyone is using her instead of helping her. She is the quintessential damsel in distress.

[LarBrd33]

Tonight was some  devilish ish....tuff to watch....

I feel like I'm watching a different television show from everyone else.  Maybe Sansa's character is more sympathetic in the books... and the stuff Joffrey put her through in the early seasons was truly horrifying.   But at this point, the show seems to go to great lengths to present Sansa as though she has options.  It's seems like once a week someone offers her a lifeline that she refuses.  Whether it's the Hound, or Brienne, some rando at Kings landing, etc.  Even Littlefinger sort of presents the Bolton marriage as a choice.   At some point, it's hard to say she isn't in that situation partially because she wants to be. 

In a way, she seems to have a lot in common with Cersei and Maergery.  All of them grew up with grand illusions of living in a pretty castle as the wife of some prince/king.  No matter how deplorable their situations get, they never sway from that goal.   Whereas that scene was probably supposed to mirror Dany's wedding night, it's not really the same.  Dany was completely powerless and forced into that against her will.   Sansa has a big part in making the bed. 

I know I can't be the only person who feels this way.  A friend of mine commented that Sansa is such a passive bystander to her family's downfall that Arya might as well add Sansa's name to her kill list. 

I'm sure it wasn't pleasant, but Sansa is playing the game of thrones. Women in this show use their sexuality to play the game.  It's partially her choice she's in Winterfell. On some level she knew what she was getting herself into.

Doesn't change the fact that at some point I hope Sansa grows a spine and takes out Ramsay in his sleep.

This is interesting, I hadn't thought of it like that.

I guess why she is such a sympathetic character is it seems like she has no control over anything and doesn't have the ability to change things.

Where Cersei and Margery seem conniving and power hungry, all Sansa ever wants is to go back home and live the way she used to. I guess to me she becomes more sympathetic because she seems helpless.

I think she went back to Winterfell to marry Ramsey because all she wants is to go home and have things the way the were. Is she kind of naive and stupid?  Yes, but I feel that people like that need the most protection which is why it is all the more sad that everyone is using her instead of helping her. She is the quintessential damsel in distress.

Ok I give you that she's naive.  A damsel in distress.  She trusts the wrong people.  I'm not doubting that Littlefinger is playing her... but she seems convinced that she's where she needs to be and they seemed to present it as though she was marrying Bolton by choice. 
 
It's just really hard not to get tired of her constant damsel in distress (partially) self-inflicted horror when juxtaposed by her own baby sister.  Sure Arya probably would have got herself killed in the process, but how many days you figure she would have lasted in Kingslanding in Sansa's position before gutting Joffrey in his sleep? 

[PhoSita]

Why couldn't they have just left her in the Vale like they did in the book?

I think it's because they wanted her to have a more active role in the show, which requires her to be put / put herself in these situations, because only by using their sexuality (i.e. their value as chattel) to their advantage can women in this world accrue power, as LarBrd33 noted above.

It is painful to watch, and I hope they don't put Sansa through any more torture and violence than necessary, because she's already been through so much.  But sadly this may be a necessary part of her advancement as a character. 

[PhoSita]

Given that, Sansa had to be in an arranged marriage with a guy we know to be a brutal sadist.  Even if he weren't a brutal sadist, it's still an arranged marriage in which the woman has virtually no say.  So, a rape on the wedding night is basically a foregone conclusion.  That's the reality in the GoT universe, and it was the reality for thousands of years in our world (still is the reality in some places).  Arranged marriages very often lead to marital rape. 

Sansa knew what a wedding night typically entailed.  The show really doesn't seem to be presenting it as though she is helpless.  She has her own agenda here.  It's the same agenda that kept her in Kingslanding way longer than she needed to stay there.

I understand how some folks will look at that scene through the lens of our modern society.  People freaked out over the Jamie/Cersei "rape" scene as well... even though it was presented as though Cersei was just testing Jamie's manhood after he lost a hand... and it basically seemed consensual. 

People will freak out about this scene as well, but in that world post-marriage sex is a certainty.  Sansa knew what to expect there.  Sure, she still doesn't understand the full scope of Bolton's insanity... and probably wasn't expected Reek to watch... but she knew what to expect there... and she seems to (at least partially) be in that situation by choice.

All of that may be true, but that doesn't make it not rape. 

Also, the Jaime - Cersei scene may not have been intended to come across as non-consensual, but if so they didn't handle it very well, because that's how the vast majority of viewers interpreted it.

[D.o.s.]

Extraordinarily lazy storytelling based out of the fact that they shoehorned a couple characters from the books into one show character: the rape is entirely a construct to give Theon a way to be more extraordinarily aggrieved. In the books it's a minor character, in the show it's a quickly-overexplained plot device.

Ze wemminz are in danger, m'lord! Doesn't that stir at the depths of your impotence?!
 

[PhoSita]

Extraordinarily lazy storytelling based out of the fact that they shoehorned a couple characters from the books into one show character: the rape is entirely a construct to give Theon a way to be more extraordinarily aggrieved. In the books it's a minor character, in the show it's a quickly-overexplained plot device.

Ze wemminz are in danger, m'lord! Doesn't that stir at the depths of your impotence?!
 

Yeah, I do have some concern that they are using this primarily as a way to help develop Theon's character so that he can have a way back to humanity rather than just being "Reek."

Using more violence against a woman for the sake of redeeming / developing a male character is something this show can stand to avoid.

You can trace all of this back to Martin failing to keep certain of the main characters involved in the central flow of the storyline, though, forcing the show runners to come up with ways to get some of them back into the mix, occasionally with awkward or just plain cringe-worthy results.

In a TV show, there are only so many times you can take a main character, set them off to the side somewhere and just hand-wave them being out of the picture for an entire season worth of material.

[LarBrd33]

Given that, Sansa had to be in an arranged marriage with a guy we know to be a brutal sadist.  Even if he weren't a brutal sadist, it's still an arranged marriage in which the woman has virtually no say.  So, a rape on the wedding night is basically a foregone conclusion.  That's the reality in the GoT universe, and it was the reality for thousands of years in our world (still is the reality in some places).  Arranged marriages very often lead to marital rape. 

Sansa knew what a wedding night typically entailed.  The show really doesn't seem to be presenting it as though she is helpless.  She has her own agenda here.  It's the same agenda that kept her in Kingslanding way longer than she needed to stay there.

I understand how some folks will look at that scene through the lens of our modern society.  People freaked out over the Jamie/Cersei "rape" scene as well... even though it was presented as though Cersei was just testing Jamie's manhood after he lost a hand... and it basically seemed consensual. 

People will freak out about this scene as well, but in that world post-marriage sex is a certainty.  Sansa knew what to expect there.  Sure, she still doesn't understand the full scope of Bolton's insanity... and probably wasn't expected Reek to watch... but she knew what to expect there... and she seems to (at least partially) be in that situation by choice.

All of that may be true, but that doesn't make it not rape. 

As I saw mentioned in another Game of Thrones thread... that allegation wouldn't hold up in court. 

"Wait, you mean to say you had sex with your husband on your wedding night?... you... you consummated your marriage!?!?  Oh the horror!... Arrest that man!  He followed the laws of the land and took his arranged bride on their wedding night... Arrest him!"

Yeah, I get it.  It was bad.   I just keep going back to that scene in the dungeon where Littlefinger convinces Sansa she should marry Bolton and the grand plan that either involves her married to the heir to the north... or the gal in charge when Stannis marches into town.   She's on board with this thing for better or for worse.    I'm not saying it was pleasant, but there's no way Sansa couldn't have expected that outcome.  The fact that Reek was watching was probably an interesting wrinkle that she hadn't expected... but it's not like Ramsay's girlfriend didn't warn her.   If she didn't want that outcome, she probably should have lit a candle on that tower.  She's been reminded multiple times that the North remembers.  She doesn't seem to want to be saved.  Probably because Littlefinger has brainwashed her this is for the best... but still.

[D.o.s.]

Extraordinarily lazy storytelling based out of the fact that they shoehorned a couple characters from the books into one show character: the rape is entirely a construct to give Theon a way to be more extraordinarily aggrieved. In the books it's a minor character, in the show it's a quickly-overexplained plot device.

Ze wemminz are in danger, m'lord! Doesn't that stir at the depths of your impotence?!
 

Yeah, I do have some concern that they are using this primarily as a way to help develop Theon's character so that he can have a way back to humanity rather than just being "Reek."

Using more violence against a woman for the sake of redeeming / developing a male character is something this show can stand to avoid.

You can trace all of this back to Martin failing to keep certain of the main characters involved in the central flow of the storyline, though, forcing the show runners to come up with ways to get some of them back into the mix, occasionally with awkward or just plain cringe-worthy results.

In a Good TV show, there are only so many times you can take a main character, set them off to the side somewhere and just hand-wave them being out of the picture for an entire season worth of material.

ftfy

[LarBrd33]

FWIW, I'm chalking this up to either a failure by the writer, the showrunners or both.  I just find my sympathy for Sansa waning as the show progresses.  From episode 1, they kind of present her as a bit of a heel.  The snobbish older sister who only dreams of living the life of a Princess with the handsome Joffrey.   As it's progressed, they present her as naive to the point of frustration.  When she's declaring her love for Joffrey publicly.  When she's falling in love with Littlefinger and marching around the Vale with painted hair... or snubbing Brienne at the bar.. or ignoring multiple reminders that "the north remembers", it's hard not to feel like she's partially to blame for her own problems.  Within the world they have created here and the rules that govern it, I find myself lacking sympathy for her.

To be clear, Sansa isn't a real 17 year old girl from Atlanta caught up in a sex traffic ring.  She's a fictional character in a backwards medieval world where the rape flows like wine.  I don't blame people for struggling to separately the situation from the context.  My comments here in no way reflect my personal value of women.  I'm just saying in this world... I kinda shrugged off last night.  This is a show where one of the most beloved characters is a former attempted child murderer who is in a long-standing incestual relationship with his sister.  Within the context of the show, it's Aiight.   Weeks ago I told myself I would be content with Sansa being killed off.  If there's anyone to blame for that, it's the people creating this show.

I think perhaps she'd be a more sympathetic character if they presented her with a bit more self worth and chutzpah like her little sister.   If only she made an attempt to fight back once in a while.

[jpotter33]

Just finished watching the episode. I'm pretty sure I've never hated a character more than Cersei, and the closest ones have been Joffrey, or Andrea and the Governor off of TWD.

I kind of feel the same way as LarBrd33 about Sansa. Not only is the context much different than our own modern perspective, but Sansa kind of brought a lot of this on herself. From being a spoiled little brat pre-Joffrey to almost ALWAYS making the wrong decision to letting everyone walk all over her, she's not the most likable character.

And, dang, this is Littlefinger's world, and we're all just visitors!