Shaq is a vast upgrade over Perkins.

[mgent]

Honestly, Perk is no slouch at finishing garbage buckets.  He doesn't have the same passing ability and doesn't have the size to pull a double team like Shaq, but he's also not bad at taking advantage of smaller guys.

If you compare Shaq to how Perk was playing at the beginning of last season, I don't think Shaq is that much better on offense to make up for the added defense that Perk brings.

[makaveli]

The only reason Perk is still around is his age. IMO with healthy O'Neal's, Perk is a 5-10 min guy on this team. Shag gives os presence downlow, Perk is just a body on offense, anything you get out of him is a plus. I like Perk, a bit overrated on D but with these guys around and healthy he will be fighting for minutes.

[More Banners]

The only reason Perk is still around is his age. IMO with healthy O'Neal's, Perk is a 5-10 min guy on this team. Shag gives os presence downlow, Perk is just a body on offense, anything you get out of him is a plus. I like Perk, a bit overrated on D but with these guys around and healthy he will be fighting for minutes.

I tend to agree with this.  Shaq will get his 20 minutes (first 5 of every quarter if it were up to me), and if he ever was healthy and in top-shape, JO would easily get the other 28 at the 5 spot.  I'm not sure JO could play PF any more, and BBD has backup PF minutes behind KG locked up.

But I'm really not very hopeful for any consistency regarding health from JO, so Perk will likely have plenty of opportunity to play if his comeback is solid.

[snively]

I think, if healthy, Perk, JO and Shaq are all about equal, but each offers something different in the big man continuum.

Shaq gives you rebounding and finishing ability, Perk gives you rebounding and all-around defense, and JO gives you some range and excellent team defense.

[xmuscularghandix]

I think, if healthy, Perk, JO and Shaq are all about equal, but each offers something different in the big man continuum.

Shaq gives you rebounding and finishing ability, Perk gives you rebounding and all-around defense, and JO gives you some range and excellent team defense.

BOOM.

TP

[jdpapa3]

Shaq probably is a vast upgrade. The offense is pretty clear.

The defense is where it's possible Shaq is underrated with our team. Our defense is 3 pp100 possessions better than last regular season so far this year. The D is also improved statistically over what it was in the playoffs. That's with banged up O'Neals shuffling in and out of the lineup. Not a glowing beacon in the corner of Perk.

Of course, the resurgence of KG has a lot to do with that, but you have to question how much: he was still an elite defender last year. This year, he is pretty much the second most important defensive player in the league.

I think it's also unclear whether Shaq is off of the court to close games because of his defense or his foul shooting...I'd lean towards the latter.

[2short]

Perk wil be in contract year, what to resign him at all or at bargain start him or at least talk to him about team strategy.  Shaq and Jermaine are old, shaq old, jermaine's body older than his age.  Shaq has no problem with coming off bench, jermaine we basically haven't seen this year.  Perk barring trade is the center of our future.  Now if Brook Lopez wants to become a celtic things would change  .  But it really doesn't matter who is the better center it will be who is the best for team.  Shaq is one of the greatest centers ever so I hope even at 50 he is a better player than Perk.  The big guy has impressed me this season.

[toinewalka]

At this stage, I think it is a push, which is exactly what the Celtics wanted.  We are at our best when KG can be athletic and quick, and someone is still there to intimidate and hit people.  Shaq is SLOW out there, but gives a hard foul or two a game, and pushes their center around on both ends.  When Perk gets back, it will be much of the same, with 12 fouls instead of six.  We aren't looking for a scorer or passer.  Just catch and finish, get up and down, play defense, and fould their best player a few times.  Both guys are great at that, and Shaq is playing really well.

Also, don't discount Perk just because he's hurt.  When he comes back you'll see that he has good hands, finishes, and will look a lot more athletic (barring a continued injury) than Shaq.  He also has a more consistant jump hook (at this point), which will help in the paint.

[Eja117]

sometimes I have mixed feelings about these sacrilegious thread titles

[TradeProposalDude]

Perkins has always been a very, very good backup center in my eyes. But Shaq is an option I'd prefer to see in the starting lineup, because of his offense.

Ideally you want to see your team get off to a good start in games, so when you have the best offensive unit on the floor, it's easier to set the tempo. And Shaq is no joke on the defensive end. His rebounding and intimidating presence are more pronounced than Perk in those areas.

[Chief]

Shaq vs Perkins.

Catch and finish ability - Shaq with ease. Perk's greatest weakness and my biggest beef with him he's too methodical. And he doesn't have the softest hands either. Shaq has been thriving simply by doing this all season.

Passing from the post - Shaq. Perk sometimes doesn't know when to quit and pass it out. It seems everyone, but Perk recognizes these moments. Shaq on the other punishes you when you try to double team or passes it out just to get better position.

Scoring in the post - Shaq, but not by as much as most would think. Perk's hook is pretty reliable when he gets good position and there's no help. For both players their offense gets a lot, better when they're playing physically weaker opponents.

Shot Blocking & Post defense - Wash. Perk does his work early not allowing his man to get position and is tough to move. He forces opponents into difficult positions. Shaq is tough to move and is hard to get around off his size alone.

Rebounding - Perk by a hair. Perk grab's between 7-8 rebounds in 27 minutes. Shaq is getting 6 in 21 it's arguable he could out rebound Perk if he played the same minutes (but he can't play those minutes so Perk).

Help Defense - Perk by a million. This is the only area where I think Perk really outshines Shaq. Perk is more active, is quicker to spots, and simply tries harder. 90% of Shaqs fouls seem to come on help defense which our entire defense is predicated on (trusting the next man has your back).

Shaq, wins out 3 to 2. He's a better finisher off the catch, passer from the post, and post scorer. Perkins is a better defender and rebounder. In my opinion, we don't need Shaq to score from the post and it's not like he's that much better than Perk anymore so that can be thrown out. So I would consider it a wash between the two it's all preference. Do you value Shaqs quick finishing ability and ability to pass out of the post to open shooters, or Perkins better defense, and rebounding. Before the season I probably would've went with Shaq, but I think our defense needs Perk more. From the few (  )games I've seen our defense has been pretty average. I think Perkin's help defense would make it a lot better. Offense isn't really an issue for me (Rondo's better and KG's healthy, Ray and PP are about the same) we've managed the last few years haven't we?

That was being very nice. His hands are awful!!

[Fafnir]

Shaq probably is a vast upgrade. The offense is pretty clear.

The defense is where it's possible Shaq is underrated with our team. Our defense is 3 pp100 possessions better than last regular season so far this year. The D is also improved statistically over what it was in the playoffs. That's with banged up O'Neals shuffling in and out of the lineup. Not a glowing beacon in the corner of Perk.

Of course, the resurgence of KG has a lot to do with that, but you have to question how much: he was still an elite defender last year. This year, he is pretty much the second most important defensive player in the league.

Part of the problem with comparing this year's statistics to last years is the injuries to KG and Pierce. I imagine they impacted our defensive efficiency as much as our record.

We're also getting about 3% more defensive rebounds and that factor alone probably accounts for the defensive efficiency increase. Shaq is definitely a factor in that, though KG's improvement is a much bigger one. Shaq is a better rebounder than Perkins is, but not by much. (and given the minutes differences between two its probably a net wash)

I don't think we can say that Shaq has helped the defense based on what we've seen so far, at least when compared to Perkins. Both players had similar defensive ratings and played for similarly defensively efficient teams. But then I remember the playoffs, Rondo and Ray Allen completely exposed Mo Williams and Shaq repeatedly in that series.

What Shaq will be is a big improvement compared to Rasheed based on what I've seen so far.

I think it's also unclear whether Shaq is off of the court to close games because of his defense or his foul shooting...I'd lean towards the latter.

Doc has finished games with Rondo and Perkins, so I don't think foul shooting is the only reason.

[Witch-King]

Both centers are known for shooting a high field-goal percentage.

Kendrick Perkins was shooting .602% from the field last season, while Shaquille O'Neal is currently at .633%, scoring 10.4 points per game.

Shaquille is by far the more accomplished center seeing as he is in a later stage of his NBA career.

...it seems like individual scoring is down this year from previous seasons; Kobe right now is second in the league at only 25.6 points per game, meanwhile Kevin Durant is only scoring 28 points a game. Meanwhile, Paul Pierce's field-goal goal percentage is still above .500...

Either way, the Celtics had a better record at this point last season so we may have to make that much more of an effort in order to remain at the top of the East going into the holiday season.

[drza44]

If Shaq is a better all around player, why is he available for the veteran's minimum? If he's a better all around player, why has Doc said the Celtics wanted him on the court in the Cleveland series?

Some possible responses:

1) Shaq wasn't going to the highest bidder this time.  His dollar value consequently measured by this contract.

2) Mike Brown was the 2nd worst NBA coach last year (behind Nellie), and didn't know how to use any of his players, including Shaq.  Though Doc said he wanted him on the opponent's lineup, he's also starting him right now (and ahead of JO in that brief window of his heath) ahead of BBD, who is very mobile for his...ahem...girth.

No question Shaq is not himself of 2000-2002 (the Finals MVP years), and now a coach has to figure out how and when to use his weapons while avoiding exposure by his weak areas.  During the Middle Years (between dominance and present role-player status), quite a few coaches (and Shaq himself) didn't figure out how to use him.  Doc, IMO, has mostly worked it out.  Shaq is actually getting better defensively right now, more than I've seen him in quite a few years.

I'll piggy-back on this, as I've seen the "Doc wanted Shaq on the court" argument used several times and I think it's a poor argument for several reasons.

1) (Last year) Shaq didn't fit next to LeBron. Offensively and defensively, Shaq was a round peg in a square hole for that team.  The Cavs defense needed an anchor, and with Shaq starting next to Jamison they had none.  And offensively, one of Shaq's best traits is his ability to either attract defensive attention (thus opening things up for teammates) or to score from point-blank range off the set-up.  This didn't fit what LeBron needed.  Shaq may have drawn attention from defenders of the Cavs' lesser players, but he wasn't freeing up space for LeBron.  And, in fact, LeBron wants to run and/or drive the lane, two things that Shaq was actually a hindrance for.

In short, Doc wanting Shaq on the court for CLEVELAND has very little to do with his value to the Celtics.

2) Shaq DOES fit here. Offensively, we play at a pace conducive to Shaq (unlike LeBron's ideal).  We have strong offensive options at the other 4 positions and an equal-opportunity offense with good shooters...thus, Shaq's ability to either draw defensive attention or take advantage of the mismatch IS a big positive to our offense (unlike Cleveland last year).  We also have excellent passers at most positions, allowing Shaq to score at the rim on easy set-ups instead of having to post up (a part of his game that has slid).  In other words, Shaq fits extremely well into our offense (and it shows vividly in the admittedly small sample size, as the Celtics score 119 points/100 possessions with Shaq and 106 points/100 possessions with him on the bench).

And just as important, Shaq also works reasonably well defensively on THIS team.  The biggest key with Shaq is that he is not very mobile as a defender...so you have to pair him with a defensive big that IS.  For Cleveland last year, the Shaq/Varejao pairing gave up about 100 points per 100 possessions together...essentially the same as what we gave up with the KG/Perk pairing.  It was only when Cleveland tried to match Shaq with Jamison or Hickson that their defense struggled (110 points/100 possessions).  In Boston, playing next to a healthy Kevin Garnett in the helping defensive scheme that we run, Shaq is fine as a defender.  In fact, with his size and willingness to be physical he has in some ways made our interior defense nastier with the no layup rule.  I like it.

3) Shaq is just better than Perk. I've been saying it for years, and 14 games into a season with no Perk at all I've seen nothing to dissuade me: Perk is a nice defensive role player, but he is NOT a defensive star.  He plays his part well, rotates hard, is a better help defender than Shaq.  All of that.  But he isn't out there making a huge defensive impact.  Yes, it's still relatively early.  But you can't just ignore that right now the Celtics as a team are giving up 100.8 points/100 possessions...a better mark than they posted either of the last 2 years with a fully healthy and playing well Perkins.  Their defense isn't struggling, and without a strong argument on that side of the ball Perk doesn't really have a leg to stand on IMO.

Conclusion: Long story short, Perk isn't really missed that much on defense.  But conversely, Shaq is making a big difference in the team offense.  I agree with the OP, this isn't particularly close.  I'll be happy when Perk comes back because he does bring some good things to the table and he's earned a place at the table for this team, but I'll be happy to have him back as depth and for situational purposes.  Barring injury, I'll be very disappointed if Shaq isn't out there with our main unit in the postseason.

[Tgro]

Excellent Post!

I agree 100%

I think we are a way better fit for Shaq than Cleveland and Lebron. Shaq looks like he loves being a Celtic too.

These are good days to be a Celtics fan. When they are on their game, this team looks like it...could...go...all...the....way!

Years from now we'll remember this team with great fondness.