early season bottom feeder thread

[FallGuy]

Minny's roster is getting better, but there is no way the triangle has any chance with a roster that young that also lacks a genuine bailout guy on the perimeter that can make something happen when it breaks down.

Wrong coach, wrong system, decent (and improving) roster despite very, very bad moves.

Kahn will likely keep Rambis and blame the roster, and consequently trade talent for nothing (i.e. Big Al for what?) and spin the franchise in circles.  They need an experienced coach to make up for the inexperienced roster.  Kahn is an idiot.

Yep. Any progress the Wolves appear to be making will inevitably be sabotaged by a Kahn-esque move. Until they get rid of him, any good feelings about that team are a mirage.

[More Banners]

Minny's roster is getting better, but there is no way the triangle has any chance with a roster that young that also lacks a genuine bailout guy on the perimeter that can make something happen when it breaks down.

Wrong coach, wrong system, decent (and improving) roster despite very, very bad moves.

Kahn will likely keep Rambis and blame the roster, and consequently trade talent for nothing (i.e. Big Al for what?) and spin the franchise in circles.  They need an experienced coach to make up for the inexperienced roster.  Kahn is an idiot.

Yep. Any progress the Wolves appear to be making will inevitably be sabotaged by a Kahn-esque move. Until they get rid of him, any good feelings about that team are a mirage.

The real crapper about the whole thing is that this season, they could actually be a decent team if the system fit the roster. 

1) I like having veteran Luke Ridnour on the roster to run the offense.  The triangle would seriously under-utilize his ability.

2) I actually like Darko as a player (without the expectations).  He's a decent rebounder and very good shot blocker, a solid defensive anchor (if they actually had a consistent defensive concept).

3) They're stacked with athletic SF's and wings generally that could excel in a movement-oriented or running game, but don't really do either.

4)  Do they really want Rubio to come over and run the triangle in a few years?  Complete waste of his ability there, too.

5) Kevin Love.

6) Beasley can be a weapon off the bench; if he's the 6th/7th man, the team has potential.  And he could be 6th/7th on that roster as backup swing F.

7)  Corey Brewer:  proven wing defender.  Combined with solid big man/post defender in Darko, the team could play defense.

with Love, Ridnour, and one of the SF's, along with designated spot-up shooter Brewer, they could play offense, too.

And yet, Rambis and Kahn will screw it all up...

[pearljammer10]

Minnesota is definitely in the worst position out of any of those teams. Their off season was incredibly bad, they are full of young players that don't have extreme potential besides Love. Rubio is never coming to Minn to save them, they wasted that pick and the Johnny Flynn pick. And they are stuck with Darko who they should have just let walk back to his homeland.

The Clippers are always going to be bad. Its unfortunate that Davis is playing so poorly. He has incredible potential but just doesnt channel it well at all. With Kaman, Gordon, and Giffin they should make some noise but since they are the mess filled clippers they wont.

Pistons time to trade Prince and Hamilton is now but I think they waited 2 years too long. They arent going to get good value in exchange for them.

Once the Rockets learn how to stop giving up so many points they are going to be a good team. Until that time comes they are just going to keep getting outscored in the 100's.

[Fafnir]

The Rockets, though not on your list, should look to trade some of their assets for Andre Iguodala.

The FIBA World Championships showed how Iggy can thrive if he is allowed to be an elite garbage-man, jack-of-all-trades type player, not the 1st or 2nd option on offense.  If he were inserted into Houston's starting lineup alongside Aaron Brooks, K-Mart, Luis Scola, and Yao / Dampier, he'd be able to fill that role very nicely.  

He'd also provide Houston with something they desperately need - an elite athlete.  They have a roster filled with efficient, undersized (except for Yao), scrappy players who thrive by working hard and playing in a fundamental way.  That's great, but they need some athleticism.  Iggy fits the bill.


It makes sense for the Sixers...they need to look to stockpile assets and get rid of long-term contracts.  The Rockets have a surplus of assets.

What type of trade package are you thinking of?

Jordan Hill, Lee, the rights to swap picks with the Knicks? I'm trying to think what other assets they have.

[wiley]

If it's true that Minny's in disrepair, then I would agree with More Banners in that it has more to do with management than player personnel. 

If the big 3 suddenly had to retire and the Celtics were left with:

Rondo, Brewer, W. Johnson, Love and Darko, with Beasely and Ridnour, Ellington and a big or two off the bench, wouldn't Celtics fans be hopeful?  And the team, although Rondo would probably get that team more wins than Minny will win this year, would have another top 5 pick coming, plus the opportunity to trade Rubio's rights for something. 

I'd like to hear if people agree with More Banners and me that the roster is looking pretty good if you don't think one way or another about coaching and management.

Granted, a LOT of patience (after years of patience already) will be needed.

That's one of the reasons I started the thread....I'd like to see some of these bottom feeders, the ones with a head start on talent (N.J.  Minny, Clippers) just be patient, play the future stars and or borderline stars, and instill mental discipline.  In my mind that's kind of what Ok. City did.

[wiley]

If it's true that Minny's in disrepair, then I would agree with More Banners in that it has more to do with management than player personnel. 

If the big 3 suddenly had to retire and the Celtics were left with:

Rondo, Brewer, W. Johnson, Love and Darko, with Beasely and Ridnour, Ellington and a big or two off the bench, wouldn't Celtics fans be hopeful?  And the team, although Rondo would probably get that team more wins than Minny will win this year, would have another top 5 pick coming, plus the opportunity to trade Rubio's rights for something. 

I'd like to hear if people agree with More Banners and me that the roster is looking pretty good if you don't think one way or another about coaching and management.

Granted, a LOT of patience (after years of patience already) will be needed.

That's one of the reasons I started the thread....I'd like to see some of these bottom feeders, the ones with a head start on talent (N.J.  Minny, Clippers) just be patient, play the future stars and or borderline stars, and instill mental discipline.  In my mind that's kind of what Ok. City did.

Granted, it doesn't always work.  But nor does trying to add mediocre veterans to undeveloped stars before the time is right. 

[nba is the worst]

Discuss Philly, Charlotte, Minnesota, Clippers, New Jersey, Detroit, Cleveland and Washington
(I excluded the Rockets obviously, and included 2-win Cleveland and New Jersey.)

What should these teams do next?  With special attention to Melo.

Philly:  Should trade Iggy imo.  Should not trade for Melo.

Charlotte:  Franchise in trouble?

Minny:  In good shape.  Start Brewer at 2, Wes. Johnson at 3, Beas. at 4.  Start K. Love at Center or trade him.

Clippers:  Excellent.  Don't trade for Melo!  Big mistake.  You have the best chance to be the next Ok. City.  Trade B. Davis.  Start your team of the future:  Bledsoe, Gordon, Aminu, Griffin and Kaman, and land another high draft pick.

New Jersey:  Added to many vets, but still in good shape.  Start Favors and Terrence Williams.  Trade Murphy and Dunleavy, and include Outlaw if you need to (if he doesn't like the bench)....you'll get some nice pieces back and another top draft pick.  Trade for Melo ONLY if you are sure you can land Chris Paul later.  Otherwise, hang onto Favors and be more patient.

Detroit:  Trade Prince and Hamilton, and Stuckey if you need to.

Cleveland:  ?

Washington:  Keep trying to trade Arenas.  Trade for Carmelo to pair with Wall. 

Clippers in best shape of the above teams imo.

Cleveland:    ?

They are 3-3 with a win over the Celtics.

They play in the east - where .500 teams are 8th playoff seeds.

Not a bottom feeder - at least at this point...

[RJ87]

Minny's roster is getting better, but there is no way the triangle has any chance with a roster that young that also lacks a genuine bailout guy on the perimeter that can make something happen when it breaks down.

Wrong coach, wrong system, decent (and improving) roster despite very, very bad moves.

Kahn will likely keep Rambis and blame the roster, and consequently trade talent for nothing (i.e. Big Al for what?) and spin the franchise in circles.  They need an experienced coach to make up for the inexperienced roster.  Kahn is an idiot.

Yep. Any progress the Wolves appear to be making will inevitably be sabotaged by a Kahn-esque move. Until they get rid of him, any good feelings about that team are a mirage.

The real crapper about the whole thing is that this season, they could actually be a decent team if the system fit the roster. 

1) I like having veteran Luke Ridnour on the roster to run the offense.  The triangle would seriously under-utilize his ability.

2) I actually like Darko as a player (without the expectations).  He's a decent rebounder and very good shot blocker, a solid defensive anchor (if they actually had a consistent defensive concept).

3) They're stacked with athletic SF's and wings generally that could excel in a movement-oriented or running game, but don't really do either.

4)  Do they really want Rubio to come over and run the triangle in a few years?  Complete waste of his ability there, too.

5) Kevin Love.

6) Beasley can be a weapon off the bench; if he's the 6th/7th man, the team has potential.  And he could be 6th/7th on that roster as backup swing F.

7)  Corey Brewer:  proven wing defender.  Combined with solid big man/post defender in Darko, the team could play defense.

with Love, Ridnour, and one of the SF's, along with designated spot-up shooter Brewer, they could play offense, too.

And yet, Rambis and Kahn will screw it all up...

I agree with most of what you said - however, I do think Beasley can play a much bigger role than 6th/7th man. People seem to forget that he's still only 21 yrs old and they got him for an absolute bargain. If he can get his head in the game, he can lead this team in scoring... Unfortunately for him, the Wolves are trying to force with wrong identity on this team. This is a team that needs to practice sound defense and get out in transition, and abandon the triangle all together. The quicker someone up top realizes that, the better off this team will be.

I do agree though, Kevin Love needs to be allowed to play. I really don't get why they seem intent to impede his development. They're own fans don't get it either. I mean, they won't give the kid big time minutes when he's a proven double-double machine, but insist he's not available in trade talks. Me-no-understand.

[Who]

Minnesota has a 25-28 win caliber team. Their best strengths are the high quality play of Kevin Love and their depth 1 through 10 of solid to serviceable role players.

They are lacking in elite talent in major way, and hence, they won't or least shouldn't be trying to take any big steps forward for the time being ... or else they'll turn into a 35-45 win treadmill team that has no hope of ever winning a playoff series.

As for the Triangle offense, it only hurts one player on their roster and that is Jonny Flynn ... who is a poor starter and an average bench player talent wise.

It actually helps several of their players including Wesley Johnson (fantastic offense for Wesley, it'll help his development tremendously), Corey Brewer, Darko Milicic and Kevin Love.

The offense was a poor fit for their squad (Flynn, Sessions, Big Al) last season but the personnel changes (Webster, W.Johnson, Ridnour, Darko instead of Big Al) they've made over the summer have made it a good fit. The Wolves should not be trying to change their offensive system.

[Smitty77]

Who,

I live about 30 miles from Charlotte.  They ARE in trouble!!  Jackson is a head case and evidenced by him evidently snapping and garnering an almost unheard of $50K fine a few days ago.  He is aging and will lose a step if he can keep his temper in check and not get moved first. 

The Bobcats gave away Felton (who is playing quite well for the Knicks) for NOTHING so that they could lock up another head case, Tyrus Thomas, long-term.  They gave away their ONLY defensive center, Chandler, for virtually nothing as well.  Did I mention that they have almost NO bench at all except when Tyrus shows up which is at best every OTHER game.

Also, they are owned by MJ, arguably the worst GM of the last 20 years.

They ARE in TROUBLE!!!!!

Trust me on this one.

Smitty77

[Who]

The Bobcats have one very good player (G.Wallace), three good players (S.Jackson, Diaw, Ty Thomas), one solid player (D.Brown) and two serviceable players (Nazr, DJ Augustin).

That base to their roster should allow the Bobcats to remain one of the best defensive teams in the league + be a poor to very poor offensive team. Similar to what they were last season. Closer to .500 (39-42 wins) than last year (44 wins) but that should be enough to keep them in the playoff picture in East.

Give them time to get their defense back in working order and the results will follow.

------------------------------------------------

I would like to see the Bobcats give Tyrus Thomas more minutes though. They need him up around 26-27 minutes a night at least (preferably 30mpg). They don't don't have enough depth to be only playing him 21 minutes a night.

It would also help them considerably if they could pickup a backup PG to replace S.Livingston at some point in the near future. He is a negative contributor. They can live with the rest of their first choice rotation otherwise.

Any injuries to their top players would hurt this team badly and likely end any chance of making the playoffs. Serious lack of depth.

[Who]

Discuss Philly, Charlotte, Minnesota, Clippers, New Jersey, Detroit, Cleveland and Washington
(I excluded the Rockets obviously, and included 2-win Cleveland and New Jersey.)

What should these teams do next?  With special attention to Melo.

Only three of those teams should pursue Carmelo Anthony - New Jersey, LA Clippers and Washington.

They are the only squads that have a chance of convincing Carmelo Anthony to stay after they have acquired him.

New Jersey -- Keep B.Lopez off the table. Good chance they can keep D.Harris too since Denver has Billups and Ty Lawson. Anything else is available. Likely package based around T.Murphy (expiring contract) and D.Favors plus future pick(s).

Washington -- John Wall is untouchable. Try to sell a package of their athletic big men (Blatche and McGee) to Denver. Probably give Hinrich and/or J.Howard too. Not much left on the roster but the idea of playing with John Wall for the rest of his career will be enticing.

LA Clippers -- Keep B.Griffin off the table. Likely have to sacrifice Eric Gordon and a contract (probably Kaman). Try to pickup JR Smith or Afflalo in the process to replace Gordon in the starting lineup. Begin to build around the promising 1-2 punch of Melo and Griffin.

[Smitty77]

Who,

GWall is very good.  However, when he is off, he is really off offensively.  He always brings it defensively.  The Bobcats were a very good defensive team last year.  Now, they are NOT.  Chandler is gone and they really have NO shot blocker on the low block outside of Thomas.  The reason he has not played more is due to foul trouble.  Perhaps he is trying to block too many shots to cover for Nazr and Diop.  Diaw can be a good player, but he is WEAK defensively and horribly over paid.  Felton was really coming into his own defensively and was strong enough to not get posted up, unlike DJ.

This simply is NOT a playoff team this year.  Also, Jackson or Wallace will miss at least 15-20 games this season.  The Bobcats were remarkably blessed with health last year.  That usually does NOT happen two years in a row.

Bobcats will be lucky to win 32-33 games this year.

[Who]

This simply is NOT a playoff team this year.  Also, Jackson or Wallace will miss at least 15-20 games this season.  The Bobcats were remarkably blessed with health last year.  That usually does NOT happen two years in a row.

Bobcats will be lucky to win 32-33 games this year.

If those injuries happen, I fully agree. Not a playoff team.

[PosImpos]

The Rockets, though not on your list, should look to trade some of their assets for Andre Iguodala.

The FIBA World Championships showed how Iggy can thrive if he is allowed to be an elite garbage-man, jack-of-all-trades type player, not the 1st or 2nd option on offense.  If he were inserted into Houston's starting lineup alongside Aaron Brooks, K-Mart, Luis Scola, and Yao / Dampier, he'd be able to fill that role very nicely. 

He'd also provide Houston with something they desperately need - an elite athlete.  They have a roster filled with efficient, undersized (except for Yao), scrappy players who thrive by working hard and playing in a fundamental way.  That's great, but they need some athleticism.  Iggy fits the bill.


It makes sense for the Sixers...they need to look to stockpile assets and get rid of long-term contracts.  The Rockets have a surplus of assets.

What type of trade package are you thinking of?

Jordan Hill, Lee, the rights to swap picks with the Knicks? I'm trying to think what other assets they have.

Also:
Patrick Patterson, Chase Budinger, Kyle Lowry.  I feel like they got a couple of 1st round picks from the Knicks.  I think Jared Jeffries is an expiring contract, too.  The Phillies will be looking to unload Iggy primarily because his contract is long-term.  Houston has a good deal of young talent and picks to trade, though they don't really have any big individual pieces.