Shaq wants to be a Celtic

[kozlodoev]

no anti-Shaq people have still answered me! Name me one decent backup Center that you'd want on this team other than Gortat (and possibly Varejao if you want to consider him a center

Erm. I don't want Gortat. And Vareajo is not a center.

There are multiple options that would not require us spending Wallace's valuable contract: Francisco Elson, Etan Thomas, Brian Skinner, Kwame Brown, Steven Hunter, Fabricio Oberto, and Earl Barron.

All those guys are dirt cheap, can adequately fill in for 15 minutes off the bench, will understand their role on the team, and will come without any of the baggage attached to Shaq. Obviously, some of these players are better options than other, and none are even part-time starter material, so they may not give you 25-30 great minutes if push comes to shove -- but that's not what really we're looking for anyhow, is it?

[hpantazo]

no anti-Shaq people have still answered me! Name me one decent backup Center that you'd want on this team other than Gortat (and possibly Varejao if you want to consider him a center).

  I might go with the Birdman, Blair (SA) or Speights.

Birdman would be awesome, but that ship sailed long ago.

[Jon]

I think all of you guys are high on ubuntu.  Yeah, we've seen our stars sacrifice to some extent.  But if you think that the Paul, Ray, and Kevin would put "team first" to the extent that they'd be willing to not start, then I think you're kidding yourselves. 

If Doc came in and told one of them that he'd be going to the bench, there would be rebellion and Doc might "capitulate" to his demands.  Except that won't happen, because even if there was a situation where Doc thought the C's would be better off with one of them on the bench, he knows darn well that by benching one of them strife would occur. 

Now Shaq's situation is somewhat different.  His skills have deteriorated and he's coming to a new team.  Still, Shaq, in terms of accomplishment, is head and shoulders above everyone on this team. 

I think a lot of you are looking at this from way too idealistic sort of a way.  We have no backup center right now.  Our options are very limited.  Cleveland showed last year that you can start Shaq and still very much limit his minutes (and not even close with him) if you don't want to. 

It'd be one thing to draw a hard line if this were a young player or if we actually had a backup center, but making an exception for a first ballot Hall of Famer when Kwame Brown or worse is the alternative, isn't really giving up all that much. 

  The things is, if he expects to be able to choose what his role will be on the team based on his historical status, what happens if they don't give him the ball as often as he likes? And I doubt if PP/KG/RA or even Rondo will hold him in as high esteem based on his play for the Lakers as you do. Is the PP who proclaimed himself to be the best basketball player on the planet 2 years ago going to defer to Shaq?

He didn't complain much last year, certainly not to the detriment of the team, and aside from James, there were far fewer stars on that Cleveland team. 

Plus, if Shaq ends up here, I think a lot of this will be settled going in.  Doc and Danny may convince him to come off the bench, but if not, they'll likely tell him "we'll start you, but that's the extent of the star treatment." 

I don't think this will be done on the fly. 

  If Shaq gets any star treatment then it's a waste to bring him in. First of all, if he starts, he'll be playing with 4 players that are all better than him despite his pedigree. Secondly, if Perk comes back healthy he could easily knock Shaq out of the starting lineup.

  I'd also like to point out that Ray's coming back at about a 50% pay cut and I'm pretty sure that he acknowledged during the regular season that if he came back he could see his role being reduced. I don't think there would be the rebellion that you expect if he ended up coming off the bench at some point in time.

If Perk can knock him out, so be it.  However, we don't know if and when Perk is getting back and we don't know if by then Jermaine or BBD might be down (I'm not even getting into KG, because if he goes down for the year, this whole debate is moot).  We can always cross that bridge when we get there.  And again, I don't think it would be the end of the world to start Shaq, as Cleveland did, and play him only 20 mpg. 

As for Ray taking a reduced role, I'm 99% sure he never said anything of the sort. 

But Shaq already has accepted that.  He scored less than half of his career numbers last year, and that was with players around him that weren't always better than him.  If he can defer to Mo Williams and Anthony Parker, I think he can defer to Rondo, Ray, Paul, and KG. 

Listen, I couldn't care less if he starts or not.  All I know is that he's a better option than anyone else out there.  If it makes him feel better to start, so be it.  After the first few minutes, who starts and who doesn't doesn't really matter. 

[LilRip]

no anti-Shaq people have still answered me! Name me one decent backup Center that you'd want on this team other than Gortat (and possibly Varejao if you want to consider him a center).

  I might go with the Birdman, Blair (SA) or Speights.

ok. are any of them available? and more importantly, does it answer any of our "needs"? let us break them down:

Birdman - great weakside defender and blocks tons of shots. horrible on-ball defender in the post. can't hit a shot. has no post-game. has no passing game. doesn't draw fouls. rebounds 6rpg at 22 mpg (Shaq has 7rpg at 23mpg)

Blair - solid pick by the Spurs. would've loved to grab him. but then again, we have BBD as our hustle and undersized big man. unless you want to trot out a 6'8'' center (Blair) with a 6'7'' PF (BBD)

Speights - solid pick and athletic. Sixers won't deal him for garbage (sheed+garbage) coz i know they're quite high on him. i haven't really seen him play so maybe another poster could inform us. but point is, he's unavailable.



- LilRip

[hpantazo]

no anti-Shaq people have still answered me! Name me one decent backup Center that you'd want on this team other than Gortat (and possibly Varejao if you want to consider him a center).

  I might go with the Birdman, Blair (SA) or Speights.

ok. are any of them available? and more importantly, does it answer any of our "needs"? let us break them down:

Birdman - great weakside defender and blocks tons of shots. horrible on-ball defender in the post. can't hit a shot. has no post-game. has no passing game. doesn't draw fouls. rebounds 6rpg at 22 mpg (Shaq has 7rpg at 23mpg)

Blair - solid pick by the Spurs. would've loved to grab him. but then again, we have BBD as our hustle and undersized big man. unless you want to trot out a 6'8'' center (Blair) with a 6'7'' PF (BBD)

Speights - solid pick and athletic. Sixers won't deal him for garbage (sheed+garbage) coz i know they're quite high on him. i haven't really seen him play so maybe another poster could inform us. but point is, he's unavailable.



- LilRip

Speights has height and can shoot. Tommy and Mike like him. I haven't seen him play much defense but then again no one else on his team did either. The sixers may be high on him, but they haven't given him much playing time yet.

[LilRip]

no anti-Shaq people have still answered me! Name me one decent backup Center that you'd want on this team other than Gortat (and possibly Varejao if you want to consider him a center

There are multiple options that would not require us spending Wallace's valuable contract: Francisco Elson, Etan Thomas, Brian Skinner, Kwame Brown, Steven Hunter, Fabricio Oberto, and Earl Barron.

All those guys are dirt cheap, can adequately fill in for 15 minutes off the bench, will understand their role on the team, and will come without any of the baggage attached to Shaq. Obviously, some of these players are better options than other, and none are even part-time starter material, so they may not give you 25-30 great minutes if push comes to shove -- but that's not what really we're looking for anyhow, is it?

yes, but what Mike has been clamoring all along is getting Shaq for the vet min. If we need to trade for him using Sheed, then we need to get a wing along with Shaq (like Moon or Parker).

With the exception of Oberto who moves well off the ball, a lot of these guys are stiffs (Elson, Brown). Shelden Williams-esque. I haven't seen a lot of these guys enough but only know them as people who can block shots (Skinner, Hunter). Not necessarily good defenders. Etan Thomas could hardly crack the Thunder rotation in the playoffs and that's a team that's defense-first.

again, to reiterate some of the arguments many posters have had against Shaq: 1) Can't defend pick and roll, 2) Can't spread the floor, 3) Chemistry

Chemistry is potentially a big problem and i think that should be the only deterrent because i'm willing to bet the guys you suggested aren't that great on pick-n-roll either (except maybe Oberto) nor can they hit jumpers. It's up to Danny and co. to figure the chemistry one out. but talent-wise and productivity-wise, Shaq's better than all these guys.



- LilRip

[kozlodoev]

Between the Birdman, Blair and Speights there are exactly 0 (zero) centers.

[kozlodoev]

but talent-wise and productivity-wise, Shaq's better than all these guys.

The problem is what when assessing Shaq's talent, people seem to have fallen asleep in 2005, and when it comes to productivity, defense is somehow inexplicably ignored.

[LilRip]

Speights - solid pick and athletic. Sixers won't deal him for garbage (sheed+garbage) coz i know they're quite high on him. i haven't really seen him play so maybe another poster could inform us. but point is, he's unavailable.



- LilRip

Speights has height and can shoot. Tommy and Mike like him. I haven't seen him play much defense but then again no one else on his team did either. The sixers may be high on him, but they haven't given him much playing time yet.

yeah, i've heard good things about him too. And they haven't played him much because Elton Brand is in front of him. but when you have a promising big man who's only 23 years old and isn't complaining about playing time or anything, you don't give that up for garbage. Would you have given up Big Al for nothing except cap space after his 2nd year?



- LilRip

[hpantazo]

Speights - solid pick and athletic. Sixers won't deal him for garbage (sheed+garbage) coz i know they're quite high on him. i haven't really seen him play so maybe another poster could inform us. but point is, he's unavailable.



- LilRip

Speights has height and can shoot. Tommy and Mike like him. I haven't seen him play much defense but then again no one else on his team did either. The sixers may be high on him, but they haven't given him much playing time yet.

yeah, i've heard good things about him too. And they haven't played him much because Elton Brand is in front of him. but when you have a promising big man who's only 23 years old and isn't complaining about playing time or anything, you don't give that up for garbage. Would you have given up Big Al for nothing except cap space after his 2nd year?



- LilRip

I agree that he's not available, and neither is Birdman. I would instead love to keep Sheed for another year, he is the best available big man for us.

[LilRip]

but talent-wise and productivity-wise, Shaq's better than all these guys.

The problem is what when assessing Shaq's talent, people seem to have fallen asleep in 2005, and when it comes to productivity, defense is somehow inexplicably ignored.

Offensively, Shaq is obviously better than any of those guys you suggested. Defensively is where it gets hard because it's hard to quantify good defense. Shaq's a good one-on-one post defender and can occasionally help on D with some good blocks.

On the other hand, defensively, i know Skinner and Hunter can block shots, Kwame and Etan Thomas can play post D and i'm assuming Oberto can defend a pick-n-roll. nevermind the fact that none of them, with the exception of Oberto, can play offense. Again, these guys are Shelden Williams-esque. With Perk out for the year (and he probably won't return to 100% this year when he comes back), the backup big becomes important. Those 15mpg actually do matter!

You're balking on Shaq because you saw what he produced before and yes, he's a shell of that. But taken out of the context of who he is (or rather, was), a backup big who commands double teams and can pass out of it and can give you 12-7 and a blocked shot at 23mpg is a pretty good thing.




- LilRip

[BballTim]

no anti-Shaq people have still answered me! Name me one decent backup Center that you'd want on this team other than Gortat (and possibly Varejao if you want to consider him a center).

  I might go with the Birdman, Blair (SA) or Speights.

ok. are any of them available? and more importantly, does it answer any of our "needs"? let us break them down:

Birdman - great weakside defender and blocks tons of shots. horrible on-ball defender in the post. can't hit a shot. has no post-game. has no passing game. doesn't draw fouls. rebounds 6rpg at 22 mpg (Shaq has 7rpg at 23mpg)

Blair - solid pick by the Spurs. would've loved to grab him. but then again, we have BBD as our hustle and undersized big man. unless you want to trot out a 6'8'' center (Blair) with a 6'7'' PF (BBD)

Speights - solid pick and athletic. Sixers won't deal him for garbage (sheed+garbage) coz i know they're quite high on him. i haven't really seen him play so maybe another poster could inform us. but point is, he's unavailable.



- LilRip

  Are Gortat and Varejao available?

[BballTim]

As for Ray taking a reduced role, I'm 99% sure he never said anything of the sort. 

  It was pretty widely reported. I found one found one article on the subject, and I know there were many more.

http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/nba/news/story?id=4862683

Allen even went so far as to indicate that he'd be OK with a reduced role (this as he routinely logs 40-minute nights this season).

"Have you ever known me to worry about being in the game or playing less minutes?" he asked. "This is what I do for a living, so I live my life accordingly. Forty minutes is a lot of minutes when you get older, but however it comes up next year, I'm ready for whatever it is, whatever [Celtics coach] Doc [Rivers] needs me to do, whatever this team ends up being. I can sit right here, whatever needs to be done."

[LilRip]

no anti-Shaq people have still answered me! Name me one decent backup Center that you'd want on this team other than Gortat (and possibly Varejao if you want to consider him a center).

  I might go with the Birdman, Blair (SA) or Speights.

ok. are any of them available? and more importantly, does it answer any of our "needs"? let us break them down:

Birdman - great weakside defender and blocks tons of shots. horrible on-ball defender in the post. can't hit a shot. has no post-game. has no passing game. doesn't draw fouls. rebounds 6rpg at 22 mpg (Shaq has 7rpg at 23mpg)

Blair - solid pick by the Spurs. would've loved to grab him. but then again, we have BBD as our hustle and undersized big man. unless you want to trot out a 6'8'' center (Blair) with a 6'7'' PF (BBD)

Speights - solid pick and athletic. Sixers won't deal him for garbage (sheed+garbage) coz i know they're quite high on him. i haven't really seen him play so maybe another poster could inform us. but point is, he's unavailable.



- LilRip

  Are Gortat and Varejao available?

initially i was looking for possible backup candidates that other posters would like because when the idea of signing Shaq gets brought up, he's judged by the harshest criteria that would be unfair for a backup big man.

my whole point in this little "exercise" was first, to prove that at the moment, there's no better big man available right now as a backup center. And secondly, with Shaq, we'd probably have one of the best, if not the best, backup big man in the league regardless of availability. do you understand now?

i'm not convinced that any of those mentioned above (bird, blair, speights, varejao, gortat) are better than Shaq this year (when it still matters). and even if Speights will be better in the future, the suggestion is ultimately useless because 1) he will probably be a starter by that time and 2) he's unavailable now. and yet, Shaq is better than him now, and  is available now. In my eyes, the biggest issue to overcome is the chemistry issue but this thread is concerned about so many other things that it confounds me as to what people are exactly looking for in a backup big?? it seems they want starter talent willing to play a backup role behind KG. so is Francisco Elson or Kwame Brown really the answer here?

because if they are, you could throw their "Shaq arguments" back in their face such as being a poor pick and roll defender, or being unable to spread the floor. Nevermind the fact that those guys are inferior in terms of post offense, post defense, rebounding and passing/playmaking ability. the only thing those guys have an "advantage" over Shaq is the whole "team chemistry" thing and that's why i think that's the only issue that needs to be addressed. chemistry.



- LilRip

[greg_kite]

no anti-Shaq people have still answered me! Name me one decent backup Center that you'd want on this team other than Gortat (and possibly Varejao if you want to consider him a center).

  I might go with the Birdman, Blair (SA) or Speights.

ok. are any of them available? and more importantly, does it answer any of our "needs"? let us break them down:

Birdman - great weakside defender and blocks tons of shots. horrible on-ball defender in the post. can't hit a shot. has no post-game. has no passing game. doesn't draw fouls. rebounds 6rpg at 22 mpg (Shaq has 7rpg at 23mpg)

Blair - solid pick by the Spurs. would've loved to grab him. but then again, we have BBD as our hustle and undersized big man. unless you want to trot out a 6'8'' center (Blair) with a 6'7'' PF (BBD)

Speights - solid pick and athletic. Sixers won't deal him for garbage (sheed+garbage) coz i know they're quite high on him. i haven't really seen him play so maybe another poster could inform us. but point is, he's unavailable.



- LilRip

  Are Gortat and Varejao available?

initially i was looking for possible backup candidates that other posters would like because when the idea of signing Shaq gets brought up, he's judged by the harshest criteria that would be unfair for a backup big man.

my whole point in this little "exercise" was first, to prove that at the moment, there's no better big man available right now as a backup center. And secondly, with Shaq, we'd probably have one of the best, if not the best, backup big man in the league regardless of availability. do you understand now?

i'm not convinced that any of those mentioned above (bird, blair, speights, varejao, gortat) are better than Shaq this year (when it still matters). and even if Speights will be better in the future, the suggestion is ultimately useless because 1) he will probably be a starter by that time and 2) he's unavailable now. and yet, Shaq is better than him now, and  is available now. In my eyes, the biggest issue to overcome is the chemistry issue but this thread is concerned about so many other things that it confounds me as to what people are exactly looking for in a backup big?? it seems they want starter talent willing to play a backup role behind KG. so is Francisco Elson or Kwame Brown really the answer here?

because if they are, you could throw their "Shaq arguments" back in their face such as being a poor pick and roll defender, or being unable to spread the floor. Nevermind the fact that those guys are inferior in terms of post offense, post defense, rebounding and passing/playmaking ability. the only thing those guys have an "advantage" over Shaq is the whole "team chemistry" thing and that's why i think that's the only issue that needs to be addressed. chemistry.



- LilRip

I agree with you wholeheartedly.

The problem is, how can we get him?  I don't see him coming for the minimum.

I read about Matt Barnes not being able to sign with Toronto because all sign and trades have to be for at least three years.  Does anyone know if that's true?  Does it not apply for Shaaq because he's over 36?