Can Paul Pierce and Ray Allen play top-level defense and still score?

[Mr October]

When thinking about how we match up against the Heat, I've come to the conclusion that we match up okay *if* Paul Pierce and Ray Allen can be big contributors on both ends in each game.

As we saw in the playoffs, both Paul and Ray are capable of playing stellar defense.  Ray's defense on Kobe was largely superb, and Paul defended Lebron very well.  However, during our series against Cleveland and LA, Paul's and Ray's offense struggled while they were defending their tough covers.

In playing against Miami, is this going to be an issue?  Do Paul and Ray have enough left in the tank to be able to contribute at an elite level on both sides of the ball?  I think both guys can be competent on both ends, but I'm not sure that competent beats Miami.  We need elite defense, and at the very least good offense.  I worry about whether we'll see that. 

The other thing I worry about is that we have nobody to cover Wade or Lebron when one of our stars needs to go to the bench.  Miami's stars should already be playing more minutes than our guys; the fact that we don't have anybody to cover either of them -- let alone both -- is a concern to me.

I have the same concerns.  The only answer I have is we are going to have to let one guy go bonkers, and limit other peoples chances.

Who that is my change from game to game but I say that would be the best plan against the Heat.

In general, you glue a guy to Miller, and then make the rest of the Heat jump shooters. I am not convinced that their range is good enough to win a title. Sure they may go off for a game or 2, but not for 7 games.

Is it that easy to keep both Lebron and Wade out of the paint, though?

The Celtics defensive style should remain roughly the same. As soon as a James, Wade, Kobe type get a foot in the the paint, the Celtics team defense reacts to close the paint. The other of Wade/James can't slash as effectively if the paint is already closing.

The Heat as a video game team look great. But ultimately in the NBA you still need shooters on the floor to win. Who has a great long or mid range game on the Heat? Mike Miller and.... Wade in 1/4 games, James in 1/6 games, Ilgauskas for maybe 1 quarter...

Who on Boston can really shoot it? Allen, Pierce, Garnett, Robinson, O'Neal (better then ilgauskas/Haslem anyway), Bradley (if he cracks the rotation later in the year), and I expect a wingman with range to be added.

[moiso]

I am suprised JO hasn't been mentioned in the equation yet. Teams will not be able to lay off him like they did Perk as he will burn them. This will make Rondo that much more dangerous as Perk's guy used to come off him to deny Rondo a good drive to the basket. If Rondo is more consistant with his jumper next year this team will be dangerous.

Everyone said the same thing when we signed Wallace but it didn't really work out that way.  O'Neal is more of a threat than Perk, but I don't think teams need to stick to him like glue.  He's an ok shooter but not that great.

[LB3533]

I will say that the Celtics have been playing a team defensive style more so than individual.

So it doesn't really matter if Ray or Paul are playing stellar individual defense on their respective men. It won't matter as much.

For example, in the NBA Finals against the Lakers: yes Ray played very good defense on Kobe, and so did TA and so did Rondo and so did Paul.

The issue though was Paul and Rondo didn't really have to guard their own guys and that left Artest and Fisher free to make big plays in the series.

I think right now going forward, we shouldn't really concern ourselves with great individual defense...we need to focus on finding more rest for our aging star wings. They need their legs in the 4th quarter so we can pull away or close the game.

[drza44]

To answer your question - no. This is Boston's achilles heel right now and it's a big one. Ray and Paul won't have the gas to defend elite players at a high level for long minutes and score. Without two very strong defenders on the bench, this team will have to rely heavily on Rondo and Garnett to pick up the scoring burden. Not a good sign.

Actually, I think that as long as Doc/the team recognizes the matchups it would be fine due to Miami's weak spot: interior defense.  As the Celtics showed against the Cavs last playoffs, if there is no shotblocking center and/or strong defensive PF, Rondo and KG can and will wreck havoc as the main 2 options even if the wings are off.

Where the Cs run into trouble is when, like in the Finals, they don't recognize the matchups.  Against the Cavs Pierce was off so they leaned more heavily on those with better matchups.  Against the Lakers, though, the Cs kept forcing it to the perimeter players like Ray even when his jumper was clearly off for multiple games.  The Cs really do have the offensive pieces to be able to score against any team in the NBA...they just have to recognize and maximize their approach.

[GreenFaith1819]

My biggest question in all of this  - is how will Boston do Defensively without Tom Thibedeaux?

[Chris]

My biggest question in all of this  - is how will Boston do Defensively without Tom Thibedeaux?

It's a legit question, but I am not all that worried.  Thibs did not create the scheme (it is in fact the same scheme they ran before he got here), he just was exceptional at teaching it, tweaking it, and getting it executed.  However, in Frank, the C's have a very worthy replacement, who has done an exceptional job as an assistant (and head coach) in the past.  I have a feeling, he will do just fine.

[Who]

My biggest question in all of this  - is how will Boston do Defensively without Tom Thibedeaux?

There shouldn't be any fall off. Not with most of the team returning from last season and the core of the team being here for the last three years.

You usually don't see teams decline instantly when they lose their defensive coach ... it normally happens over time (couple of seasons).

[Jon]

My biggest question in all of this  - is how will Boston do Defensively without Tom Thibedeaux?

There shouldn't be any fall off. Not with most of the team returning from last season and the core of the team being here for the last three years.

You usually don't see teams decline instantly when they lose their defensive coach ... it normally happens over time (couple of seasons).

Plus, it's not like KG is going to stop playing (and screaming at others) to play defense now that Thibs is gone. 

As to the original question: they can as long as they're healthy and play reasonable minutes.  Both are big IFs right now. 

[GreenFaith1819]

Thanks Chris and Who.

I feel a little better now about the question in this thread.

Thibs was/is a genius. He is the main reason that I look for CHI to be better (at least Defensively and Chemistry-wise) than MIA.

[Jevi]

Ray Allen doesn't play a lick of defense. Love Ray,but whoever wrote he is capable of playing stellar defense,sorry that was actually Tony Allen. Ray's reflexes are slow to react,he isn't able to stay in front of his man. So again,wrong Allen,reason why C's desperately need wing backups(who Doc will play). Marquis is capable playing stellar D,but he isn't a championship player,we found that out(I don't forgive easy).Look Ray can't do it,game 7 was about Kobe missing shots than Ray having any effect.

[Meadowlark_Scal]

I would say that, as we saw in the playoffs, no, they cannot do both....TA gave us the breathing room we needed, and now he is gone. He covered both Lebron and Wade, and now he is gone so we can cover neither....in my opinion that was a HUGE mistake, for 1 year of chicken feed money, NBA type money anyway......And TA was surely sick of being so second string, when he could get more respect (at least initially), same money, and the 3 he wanted. Danny blew that one big time, unless he magically finds a replacement, but you don't let TA go...while you are looking hard to replace perk and sheed...it was just capitol dumb, or arrogance..or too busy to pay attention, all of which fall under dumb......and no, they cannot do both.

[ManUp]

Not against Lebron and Wade. Lebron seems to have Pierce's number these days, and Ray simply doesn't have the lateral quickness to defend wade. Ray is off and on in the play-offs you don't know which Ray you'll get on any given night. Pierce will have to execute the offense to perfection to get his baskets because he's not getting much on Lebron if he tries to iso. In a play-off series against Miami Rondo, KG, and JO/Perk have to win their match-ups for us to win.

[More Banners]

I don't think either player has the legs to play on both ends of the floor at the level we expect for starter's minutes, 32-36 mpg.  Frankly, not many players can, which is why teams often try to have one defensive wing and one scoring wing.  

The thing with "superteams" is that they usually have a mismatch somewhere against every opponent, which is true for us as well.  We can expect either wing to have to defend the other team's main scorer on any given night, and the other to be able to focus their energy more on the offensive end.  It's getting more challenging, though, since teams seem to be loading up fairly well, including not only Miami, but Charlotte and Atlanta in the east as well, and potentially in Philly as well (if their pick works out).

It isn't getting any easier.

[Meadowlark_Scal]

I just don't see how perk will be back either...and judging from what we have seen from everyone that has come back from knee surgery...well, they always need (kneed) a year to get feeling right anyway..an extra year that is......

[ManUp]

I just don't see how perk will be back either...and judging from what we have seen from everyone that has come back from knee surgery...well, they always need (kneed) a year to get feeling right anyway..an extra year that is......

Yup, Perk is going to come back fat and out of shape (remember Pierce in 07?). He's not going to be the same guy for a while. Plus, It's not like he had any speed and explosiveness to lose either.